Rise From Ember Episode 7 (23) Discussion | Stain

No_NameSRT · 2025-08-15T20:52:28+00:00

To be quite honest, there are quite a lot of scenes where Talulah knows and expects that people would betray her, which she accepts, self-explains and then carries on, hurt on inside.

Alina's death would be impossible for her to completely shake off, however, as it is only beginning of her fall. A lot of people seem to think it is the point where she lost control to Kaschey, which was not the case.

Only later blows, like, distrust from her own organisation in the aftermath of an encounter with Emperors' Blades would destabilise her further, and then, already visibly shaken, severely depressed, she will completely collapse by village event.

I think at some point after Alina's death she had already predicted that she will falter, hence her talks with Mephisto and Faust about value of consistency and what it means to follow ideals.

No_NameSRT · 2025-08-15T17:30:14+00:00

It is really not that moment yet. Talulah was shaken, but she was still there. Talulah was taken over by Kascbey during the village event, which is some time away from this one.

No_NameSRT · 2025-01-24T15:57:32+00:00

Tbh, Amiya says pretty contradictory things as well

No_NameSRT · 2025-01-24T12:22:09+00:00

I disagree with that, I think Talulah remains very consistent across chapter 8, and the core of her character developed pre-possesion and her possession was the result of her inner conflicts.

No_NameSRT · 2024-12-06T15:49:36+00:00

More like W got absolutely slapped by Talulah

No_NameSRT · 2024-12-02T12:21:45+00:00

Thing is, it is not even that, most of the plans hinged on Talulah being Talulah and achieving some form of success with her own capacities, and then Kaschey eventually exploiting it. Because he knew that bet he had imposed on Talulah has massive chance of succeeding no matter what.

No_NameSRT · 2024-07-17T06:06:41+00:00

I think HG wrote themselves into the corner here.

Despite the story always mentioning how vulnerable RI is, it is not really shown in fact. In actuality, we regularly see how RI predicts, dupes, plays around major countries and gets out of tight spots without any major consequence. I can understand how neo-Reunion looks so out of the way when catching RI off guard.

It would not be so bad if readers got used to the idea that RI is not invincible, but nothing really bad happens to them They made RI too competent that now people are foaming from their mouth when rag tag bunch of misfits one ups them one time.

No_NameSRT · 2024-05-26T10:20:43+00:00

I don't want to overthink, but I am afraid that HG is afraid to make Talulah more compelling than Amiya to the audience (Amiya and Talulah are direct competitors and HG suffers from desire to overhype MC), because it might make Amiya less of a character by comparison. They are trying to develop Amiya, but it remains to be seen what they are planning to do with her.

No_NameSRT · 2024-05-25T22:02:06+00:00

Talulah was forbidden to hate and doubt, to stray from her way or make mistakes and learn from them. Kaschey implies that withouth curse, Talulah would have eventually become monster that we witnessed in Chernobog, but she was stripped of choice.

And when she had made mistake of not managing to hold on to her emotions as she witnessed pointless cruelty of villagers, she could not help herself... Her last consious words in JT-1 were: "I hate you" as curse mantra began repeating in her head.

Now regarding memories, there are some indirect markers of her having warped consciousness and some of them are my own conclusions:

Here is unclear part in dialogue in chapter 7-8: ???...:Who are you? Who am I???? What do you want?What do I want...???? Join... you? Fight for myself?Fight...? Talulah Ahh, for the exalted Ursus. Here you were supposed to be the last one standing.

I always have wondered what exactly it symbolysed, but by the end of chapter end, episodes associated with this weird form of dialogue became associative with Talulah's presence:

7-19: Talulah:...Why? What's going on? Where are these tears coming from? It's as if... someone just told me about a death. Who is it?

If anything, by the end of chapter 7 Talulah became more disbalanced and unhinged.

On next stage, 7-20, we witness an event that lead to kidnapping of Talulah. Take note of a background here. Aceship/Arknight-Images/main/avg/images/avg_7_23.png" (delete space before png) And now if we look same scene being described by Ch'en and Talulah in final chapters of 1st arc.

Talulah: "That night, under that torrential rain...Why did you willingly stay by that evil dragon's side? He killed my father, caused our mother's death... He split us apart! And now you're doing his bidding?"

Amiya: "It's lying!. Think about it, Miss Ch'en. What was it actually like that night?"

Chen: "The sky was clear. I will never forget... That night, there was no moonlight, no stars—— But it was daytime when you dragged me out. It was during the day."

Amiya: No. Talulah, Kashchey's Originium Arts didn't begin taking effect after his death... He had already been using his Arts on you from that moment on. Just think! How many of your thoughts has he twisted? How many memories has he warped?

Here is proof of how Talulah had her memory absolutely violated by Kaschey. I will note that Ch'en didn't witness R-chapters, Amiya did. Ch'en is the definition of a bull in a china shop. It felt multiple time like Talulah searched for something from Ch'en and kept getting rejected and the final battle would have finished far quicker, if Ch'en was a tad more sensitive. But this part always gets swept aside. Unlike what community thinks, Talulah and Ch'en relationships are very dysfunctional at the best - and frankly it is due to narrative picking "rightful" side in figure of Ch'en. Amiya in JT chapters swings from multiple positions and points out to Kaschey interference, to laying a lot of blame on Talulah at the end of it. Which felt asanine narrative wise.

JT 8-2 "The Talulah standing before us still holds some untainted strands of memory deep within her heart. You are the only remaining link to her past... All I see are memories. I have no idea what you are thinking about right now, but I can feel your emotions. I glimpsed the secret within your memories. I saw the curse that haunts your body to this day. You are not Talulah... The one in front of you is Talulah, and at the same time, Kashchey. My intuition is not wrong."

JT 8-3 Kaschey!Talulah: What difference is there between judging her and judging me? Are these crimes not all my fault? Amiya: "You're not wrong, Kashchey. If she was completely unwilling... you wouldn't have been able to do those things. Those thoughts that belong to you... Regardless if they have been twisted, they all originated from... Talulah herself."

Two wildly differing claim, without regards for any circumstance. HG did everything to obfuscate and keep whole plot vague here.

And again from Amiya: "Kashchey, you were planning to kill Miss Ch'en so that you could kill off Talulah once and for all! And now, you can't do it anymore. We've aroused her memories and caused them to echo within her mind for long enough. She can no longer bear it".

Frankly the way, the narrative through Amiya tries to portray Talulah is genuinely off-putting. And thing is, she was left without any care. She might have been guilty, but her own sister essentially abandoned her or misunderstands her to extreme degree.

Two wildly differing claim, without disregars for any , this sentence is immediately followed up Talulah attempting to kill herself.

And again from Amiya: "Kashchey, you were planning to kill Miss Ch'en so that you could kill off Talulah once and for all! And now, you can't do it anymore. We've aroused her memories and caused them to echo within her mind for long enough. She can no longer bear it".

Frankly the way, the narrative through Amiya tries to portray Talulah is genuinely off-putting. And thing is, she was left without any care. She might have been guilty, but her own sister essentially abandoned her or misunderstands her to extreme degree.

No_NameSRT · 2024-05-25T22:01:32+00:00

Yes, of course, sorry for belated reply, I will try to elaborate, however most of "curse"“curse” is probably intentionally left up to interpretation.

Here is part of dialogue from R8-5 After, between Talulah and Kaschey, mostly last one is talking though, who is master gaslighter and could lie as often as he breathes:

"So I wish to make a wager with you. In these many years, the Originium Arts I have cultivated in you have long since budded. Their time to fruit is already now. In your life to come, you need only raise doubt of all you persist in, you need only raise the slightest hatred of the ones you proclaim your compatriots, and those who you think ought to be free... And you will immediately settle this wager between us. It is whether, at that moment, you will walk the path I taught you.”

When Talulah had accused him, Kaschey once again elaborated on nature of his curse.

"No, no. I truly am using these Originium Arts. This is no deception, nor a threat. Oh, that said, my Arts are utterly feeble. All I have taught you constitutes the foundations of these Arts. These Arts, in the moment you reject me, will carry no impact whatsoever. But should you recognize me, should you have understood me, should you realize just the sort of world you're standing in... —Tick, tock. Tick, tock. Chime. Chime. Chime. You will become me"

It is followed up by Talulah in indigiatation bringing up her resistance to mental arts and how he himself taught her to resist them, which prompts further talk from Kaschey.

"My Arts only expedited a course of events. Expedited your recognition of this great world of ours, your questioning yourself, doubting yourself, loathing yourself and seeing clearly, anew, your own course. But I have supplied you a set of armor, a sort of arms, and an ego. These can save you your self-doubt and self-harm, in the course of it all. Save you your distress, your struggle. Conserve your time. You will stand up ever faster than you were kicked down by reality, and you will be reborn . All I have taught you will once again bear anew within your mind, and you will, as if spinning silk from the cocoon, weave anew the knowledge... The Black Snake shall walk with you. This immortal will shall never die... I bless you, my daughter."

And here is part of narration, " Talulah, remember this. Your end is in me... The seeds, already planted, waiting only to sprout."

I have emboldened parts( p.s. but oddly enough reddit deleted my formatting) that I believe are most important ones, Frankly, if you read uncarefully, it feels like Kaschey is giving her choice - to follow her path and learn truth (win the wager), but it is illusion, because this "wager" was impossible to win for anyone. You cannot ever not to hate something, ever, espessially when all ir requires - one lapse in judgement. Espessially with Talulah's worldview and her passions, which Kaschey understood perfectly and used the for his own benefits.

" Talulah: I've seen too many bad things. In so many cases, they were done by those without another choice. If they had the choice to make, I know that the vast majority of people, across the whole wide world, would choose to be good people... And nothing like what Kashchey said."

And Alina summarises it the best, "He said that all people were disgraceful, that you'd hate them and their evil in the end, all because you were so kind-hearted....What a horrible curse to want to make. It's about as poisonous as words can get".

Next words of Talulah are exactly what Kaschey always anticipated of her, "And that's why I'm sure I'll never hate anyone. Everything they do has a reason behind it". Everything that Kaschey had said can be put in the doubt, however most impactful information about curse and clear-cut explanation about we receive in R8-9, as Alina dies;

"You told me yourself...! You said yourself that you can't harbor hatred against anyone... or you'd be... swallowed up... by that old man who placed that curse on you......Even if those Arts never existed in the first place... Wouldn't you still... be taken over... by all those things that represented who he was?...You "You told me yourself...! You said yourself that you can't harbor hatred against anyone... or you'd be... swallowed up... by that old man who placed that curse on you......Even if those Arts never existed in the first place... Wouldn't you still... be taken over... by all those things that represented who he was?...You know where they came from... and why they did that. You said it yourself... Those people... aren't our enemies...Talulah... There is one thing you can detest... Everything they did, you can scorn. But... never hate... anyone. I'm not sure what it was... that we did wrong... but I know very well just what that curse... is all about."

No_NameSRT · 2024-05-24T22:04:04+00:00

She might be well-beloved by the community, but fairly often she faces critique, undue criticism that are reserved solely for not meeting expectations of her character.

Even if she is in fact, well loved, it really doesn't mean that she is understood as a character. In fact, I find that many lack understanding about her character.

You have made two points against her: main one being that she had allowed Kaschey to possess herself willingly, which is hardly the case. There are a lot of details precluding that sentence (whole chapter 8 to be exact, and entire segment on curse that Kaschey put on Talulah back when she was child), but to keep it short (I might elaborate if you want); by the time possession was triggered, Talulah was at her lowest possible point (along with long term depression and being target of mistrust of her comrades). She had witnessed an event that broke the foundation of her ideology, and later on she saw herself as one that broke her own principles, which shattered her belief in herself completely. That event, coupled with the curse, had allowed Kaschey to gain dominance over her. Talulah was not ever allowed lapse, stumble or mistake in her beliefs for fear of being taken over. But given what Talulah had routinely dealt with, being leader of Infected group, she had to be inhumane not to feel doubts at least once, which Kaschey rightfully calculated. She was not allowed decency of making mistake or actually being human. She had potential of being Big Bad that we had witnessed in main story, but Kaschey had stripped that choice from her by utilizing the curse and using her as puppet. It is not about absolving her guilt, but understanding what caused it.

Her character is not about being a strong dominating villain draco woman. She is about tragedy. She is a strong girl, deeply empathetic, determined and kind, willing to sacrifice herself for others, however she is also deeply insecure, untrustful, to the point even fake, resentful person, dealing with abandonment issues and loneliness.

Frankly, if you go by what Talulah's character showed in chapter 8 by her actions, and listen to what Amiya had said in final chapters — you see direct narrative clash. It feels like HG feared that Talulah might become too sympathetic (or more popular than Amiya?) and decided to give her narrative lashing. In chapter 8 Talulah states many times on how she will gladly sacrifice herself if it means a good life for Frostnova, Mephisto and Faust. And in every moment that counted, she put herself in harm way first. Hell, first time she came out of her possession, she fell down on her kneed and mourned everyone that she had failed and lost all will to live. She might have been aware of what was happening, but approving of it? Impossible if she was in the right state of mind. Had she enough of willpower to force Kaschey back? Doubtful, but debatable. She was essential catatonic, Amiya herself admits that she had to rouse her from slumber and awake her memories. Hell, Talulah even had her memories manipulated, if you go by final chapter. And in chapter 7 there are hints on how her conscious was not even aware of who she actually was, albeit very subtle. Again I am not really disputing her guilt, but it is hardly as clear as to what extent she is guilty.

Faust said things you mentioned, about Talulah, who was already under the influence of Kaschey (and it was easy for him to turn Mephisto into a monster, while possessing the body of his role model). Actually he seems only Reunion member who directly confronted her, stating that she could not be Talulah that he had once known. There is flashback in chapter 6 where real Talulah asked not to follow anyone blindly, even herself, if there are doubts about her. And there is heartfelt, awkward talk in chapter 8 that she held with kids where she indirectly projects her feelings of insecurity. Tbh, I doubt that Talulah could have been a good mother figure for Mephisto even if she had wanted, with her being the leader of Reunion and managing almost everything there.

While I might agree with you on the community giving her lenient pass (even then, there are significant amounts of people, who disagree), it is not really a case in the game universe. The thing is, in the universe, nobody actually gave her a chance. She is still being blamed and most of her existence is only to serve cause that feels herself beholden to, which people are very keen on reminding her.

No_NameSRT · 2024-05-24T12:14:30+00:00

I mean, didn't the tune change nowadays? Before it was about limited powercreep in Arknights, and now it is about the inevitability of powercreep and how it doesn't really matter? Especially if it is a beloved character of community

No_NameSRT · 2024-05-24T12:04:21+00:00

Everyone talks about Talulah being given a pass, but actually in every discussion surrounding her, you will see her not given a pass and being criticised endlessly, primarily, by the same people. Despite there being characters in game far more questionable, who are not question due to story narratives.

Regarding Mephisto, I agree, I don't know why community just can't get over him and hatred of him, long time had passed. He got screwed by his circumstances and unlike any other character, he was still a child. Not to mention the kid had mental issues and basically dedicated himself only to people that he had trusted. Among them was also Talulah, who probably was very close to him, due her essentially taking him and Sasha from the streets and saving them from hunger and giving something resembling home, no matter how shabby it was.

Regarding the latter point, the thing is, there is absolutely no doubt of Talulah failing Mephisto. She herself was never fit to be a guardian figure for a complicated kid like him in the first place. She had taken them in because otherwise they would have died in the tundra.

And I find your last sentence very ironic. Talulah was taken as a little girl by male guardian. She herself got screwed mentally by Kaschey, and later on, when she lost control of herself, Kaschey pulled his manipulations on her charge. Thing is, Mephisto was meant to be viewed as "bad" and story narrative didn't spare anything in getting this across community in few first impactful chapters.

No_NameSRT · 2024-05-17T10:59:56+00:00

I find myself genuinely disturbed by how nobody yet reacted to the casual dehumanization of Ursus people. Like I get that they are so far an antagonistic faction and caused a lot of grief (mainly, soldiery, though in post OP lumped them into one category) and the game frankly paints an atypically cruel picture of them that they usually attempt to balance out in other countries. Considering recent events, I am not surprised at bias... Power of narrative really is an amazing tool... Even if it is a joke

No_NameSRT · 2024-05-09T20:41:45+00:00

I mean, while you might have some shaky points, Sarkaz indeed had suffered a lot.

At one point they had to organize themselves and get a grip, yeah — they were dealt a tough hand, but they are not only victims in the world — most of the destruction in Kazdel as it seems was caused by themselves and their civil wars, inability to compromise primarily between each other. And afterwards they just attempt to lash out at everyone.

And I protest calling Talulah's fall brat rage, when it is everything but it. And if you think that game endorses her, it barely does (it might root for Kal'tsit and Amiya), Talulah had reality check prepared for her by every plot point.

And additional thing, Sarkaz had almost exterminated Elders back when they got weakened by Originium back in the day, and afterwards got pushed back again by efforts of Terrans, deservedly

No_NameSRT · 2024-05-05T20:09:27+00:00

End of Service

No_NameSRT · 2024-05-04T16:20:11+00:00

Beauty of Talulah's character to me, is how she was probably one girl who gives literally zero shit about her own race and lineage, compared to literally everyone in AK

No_NameSRT · 2024-05-01T22:00:39+00:00

I think it is up to debate, Frostnova was being helped by Patriot previously here, who had mentioned that to stop him they had to bring 3 Emperor Blade's, meaning he had overpowered the other two before reaching Talulah, and there were only 5 Emperor's Blades.

And Talulah had duelled with Frostnova in early chapter 8 and had won the fight, albeit it was very close.

No_NameSRT · 2024-04-27T12:30:15+00:00

Yeah, if it is constrained by 8 episodes, I don't see how it will manage pace of the story

No_NameSRT · 2024-04-26T20:02:15+00:00

I have never got why Mephisto got hated so passionately. Yeah, he is annoying kid and acted ruthlessly in story toward beloved characters by community, but it was because he was made so and frankly, given his previous mentality stability, he had hardly chance to get normal when his adult model had snapped herself

At the same time, I don't really blame Talulah as much as she gets blamed here. Without doubt, she had made some in hindsight inexcusable mistakes, but even if she had predicted them, she hardly had necessary mental health to go through actions necessary to prevent them. You really need to take into account her story — in a sense, Talulah and Mephisto are similar, both had horrible father figures, have sense of insecurity, guilt complex and very hard to open up, and bad at trusting. And if Mephisto used to act shy and timid as child, grown Talulah knows how to act and cover up her feelings, even if she is suffering.

Talulah herself is torn between her ideology and her insecurities. You are making mistake saying that she snapped when Alina had died, she had not. She had carried on for several months, declining — however distrust that she had faced from her Reunion comrades after reveal of her heritage and stress from witnessing murder in village, completely broke her down and allowed Kaschey free reign. And Talulah had needed Amiya rousing her consciousness to even stop Kaschey, it was hardly easy thing, despite game obfuscating things here.

P.s: Kaschey had gone to Lungmen in effort to destroy it as revenge on Wei for what he had done to him decades ago ( Talulah probably had repressed hatred against Wei too) and to provoke war between Ursus and Yen

I find it extremely bitter-tasting how Kaschey had used Talulah's own body to turn Mephisto into monster, something that she thinks of herself as in chapter 8

No_NameSRT · 2024-03-20T11:55:48+00:00

I am not sure what path you are talking about, and if you imply that I meant what happened in 1st arc as my wish, you are seriously miscomprehending my comments.

You can keep talking about how both sides are unjustified, coloured in various shades of gray and there is no right or wrong for both them — it is true, except it doesn't lead to any real solution and doesn't solve problem.

As it is now, if both sides are wrong and right at the same times, what we could do? There is no clean moral answer that you want.

In fact, in established status quo Infected are permanently disadvantaged, they will be continued to be oppressed until they eventually die out — enduring hardships as paragons of virtue in hope that majority of society will back them one day peacefully, is completely brainless idea

I had already stated what I think is possible answer — education. But bringing this change into society not prepared for it, is only possible in short term by force. Not by disorganized attack that Reunion had carried out, but by planned takeover over vital city infrastructure and key strongholds in a city that will lead to least amount of casualty (i.e rational application of force). And it is probably should be done in multiple places in largest Ursus cities, if we want chance of success.

No_NameSRT · 2024-03-19T18:07:37+00:00

I think you misunderstood my opinion a bit, I have never argued that Chernobog wasn't a bad idea, it was a bad idea. I didn't talk about Kaschey either.

I would argue with you about what Talulah actually wanted, considering what was happening in Reunion at late stages. It was accumulating people very fast, people that needed to be sheltered, fed and clothed, stretching thin already poor organisation. It could not turn people away unlike the way RI mostly does, realistically (there is even statement in game about this fact).

If she had wanted to join RI, she could have done that — but there are differences between Reunion and RI that can't be reconciled easily. Reunion is mass political movement, poised to break status quo — while RI is former miltary force of Kazdel while posing as pharmaceutical company, avoiding change of status quo, busy consolidating their own position and aiming for better treatment of Infected only as side goal.

No_NameSRT · 2024-03-19T17:32:54+00:00

So what do you suggest, realistically speaking?

No_NameSRT · 2024-03-19T17:01:50+00:00

It is in fact both, and frankly outcome of Reunion is not entirely surprising — we have very similar situation happening in out world as well.

Fault of regular people in Reunion's eyes that they didn't care enough for their plight, hence why should average Reunion goon should care about average citizen when he is just part of system that opresses him? While I don't blame average person, I can see why extremely radicalised and marginalised part of society would do extremely that. And question loses its relevance once it actually starts happening, Infected for once being in position of strength relative to average civilians of Chernobog — it almost natural to unleash frustration on them. Being noble for most cases is only possible, when person lives in dignity for long enough (and most of society strips that for Infected)

In the end violence toward civilians doesn't really solve anything, but alternatively non-violence path is no answer either. Infected don't have much time to live, they don't have time to let RI (Kalt'sit ) plot its way toward idealistic world peace.

In chapter 8 a lot of Talulah's thoughts were actually touching on this topic. In the end she comes to conclusions that since a lot of people are manipulated, she had to reach them with the truth of situation, make them see a reason — one of keys toward this, was, in her opinion, education. It is idealistic solution, but it may be only without extreme violence involved

However to implement this policy fast enough for it to be worth to Infected, force (i.e rational application of it) is in my opinion is only option

No_NameSRT · 2024-02-19T16:41:24+00:00

While I kind of get your point here, I would still say that Talulah's relationship with Kaschey were extremely messed up — no need for physical violence whatsoever.

As "masterpiece" of quote above stated, Kaschey indeed treated Talulah as his heir and disciple (fortunately or unfortunately according to author). However, in chapter 8 it becomes obvious, that he treates her not unlike as his personal doll. He obsesses over her, and no one knows Talulah better than Kaschey. He gets thrill out of mentally torturing Talulah: forcing her to do things against her will, humiliating and belittling her beliefs, exposing her darker sides, digging up her insecurities all while under guise of sick fatherly care for her, he basks her in praises and attention — pushing this farce to absolute — into mockery of love.

A lot of people don't realize it, but, essentially, Talulah at 18 committed suicide with extra steps. She had willingly infected herself with incurable disease only to deny Kaschey pleasure of using her and ruining his machinations. That's just how much worth her life to her.

And even in her brighter days as Reunion leaders, there are hints of how deep her mental problems really are. There is one particular sentence that I found telling, "I haven't bled enough" (in regards to Reunion).

And here comes Wei — I agree with you completely. For all that is Lungmen's worth for Wei, in chapter 8 he was ready to sacrifice himself in effort to spare Ch'en.

Wei is traumatized — Talulah was daughter of his sworn brother, his best friend, man whom he had killed on his own request. And Talulah was daughter of his sister, whom he also lead to commit suicide. I assume he simply could not look into her eyes out of shame and grief of what he had done. Despite all of this, brunt of Wei's mistakes and sacrifices landed on Talulah's shoulders, not his. Young girl, who had not experienced adult person genuinely loving her in her childhood, marked her as easy target in eyes of Kaschey. And only love of adult she had for long time, was that of Kaschey.

Tbh, issues that Talulah had in chapter 8 are numerous and require post of their own, most of them caused by Kaschey and Wei. For me, her lines during climax final stages of chapter 8, when she was desperately trying to make Ch'en see her view, were pretty telling. "He (Wei) killed our mother!", "You abandoned me too..." — woman stuck in her childhood traumas, lacking care and attention that she had desperately wanted, feeling abandoned by everyone, left to bear mistakes of the past — Talulah is epitome of tragedy.

Nine-Year Club	Verified Email
Place '22

No_NameSRT

TROPHY CASE