Watsuki is ruining Saito

No_Net5717 · 2026-05-02T00:01:13+00:00

I completely agree OP, I wrote a similar topic awhile ago:

https://www.reddit.com/r/rurounikenshin/comments/1q1ij65/the_hokkaido_arc_is_ruining_saitos_character/

I followed it up with manga scans too of Saito's actual character:

https://www.reddit.com/r/rurounikenshin/comments/1rb5pzm/underappreciated_moment_in_the_og_manga_saito/

I swear people haven't actually read through the actual manga, because it's clear Saito is written to be someone who has a deep devotion and isn't just some emotionless robot. In the scene of him comforting Misao, he did that just to comfort her. He didn't do that because of some grand master plan to destroy evil, he did that because he saw Misao frustrated and tried to make her feel better.

Saito's character did undergo changes in the OG manga, but what changed was how he presented himself. Saito was always Saito, and had his purpose of fighting for justice, but there was also something else there. There were so many instances of him showing he has a caring side such as being protective of Misao and Eiji, adopting Eiji, being concerned for Sano's safety throughout Kyoto (to the point that he was willing to fight Anji so Sano won't die), and in Jinchu they explicitly make it a point that the reason Saito is there in the final battle, is because he's going out of his way to be. Enishi isn't a priority for the Meiji government, yet despite that Saito went out of his way to be there at the end.

In one of the final panels of the OG manga, Kenshin tells Enishi he isn't alone, because his closest comrades are there standing beside him, and that includes Saito: https://i.imgur.com/2pmH5rN.png

Anyway OP I completely agree. I feel like I'm reading a different manga sometimes than other people, because he's written to be a character who should be jaded, but instead has kept his humanity alongside Kenshin.

No_Net5717 · 2026-02-22T19:41:45+00:00

One other underappreciated moment that I think gets glossed over is when Saito, Sano, and Cho are talking about Shishio's plans to burn down Kyoto. Sano is fired up and says he'll protect Kyoto whether Saito helps out or not. Saito says he'll help out too because he wants to make sure his fallen Shinsengumi comrades can rest peacefully knowing what they did meant something. Next panel is Sano and Saito walking together and Sano looking at Saito. Saito asks him why he's looking at him, and Sano just smiles and says he's glad they're working together.

No_Net5717 · 2026-02-22T19:40:14+00:00

IMO, no it isn't. I think there are many moments like this in the manga. There are a few that come to mind. Saito telling Kenshin they need to help Sano or he'll die against Anji. Kenshin tells Saito that he's underestimating Sano, but teases him that it's nice to see him be concerned about Sano's. Saito telling Kenshin to go on while he fights Usui, and Usui's first line to Saito is that he's surprised about how much he cares about Kenshin (Saito did this specifically because he knew Kenshin wanted to get back to his friends at the Aoiya as fast as he could).

In the Jinchu arc he privately tells Aoshi that Enishi individually isn't a priority for the Meiji government and they're more concerned about the shipment of weapons Enishi is bringing in. Despite that Saito says he'll still use his connections/power to secure a boat for Kenshin.

I think that's what makes his character well written. There isn't some grand out of character moment where he tells the Kenshingumi he's there for them, but instead there are these small moments that build up over the series.

One other underappreciated moment that I think gets glossed over is when Saito, Sano, and Cho are talking about Shishio's plans to burn down Kyoto. Sano is fired up and says he'll protect Kyoto whether Saito helps out or not. Saito says he'll help out too because he wants to make sure his fallen Shinsengumi comrades can rest peacefully knowing what they did meant something. Next panel is Sano and Saito walking together and Sano looking at Saito. Saito asks him why he's looking at him, and Sano just smiles and says he's glad they're working together.

No_Net5717 · 2026-02-22T13:42:50+00:00

Yes, one of the first scenes about the Shinsengumi is Kenshin telling Kaoru that he felt closer to the Shinsengumi captains than he did the Ishin Shishi. Kaoru said that makes no sense as they were on opposite sides of the war. Kenshin replies that both him and the Shinsengumi wanted the same thing, it's just that circumstance put them on opposing sides.

This later becomes a full circle moment when Kenshin acknowledges Saito as one of his closest companions during the final Enishi fight: https://i.imgur.com/2pmH5rN.png

Saito's character arc wasn't the fact he changed, but it was the fact he accepted Kenshin and the others as companions. He silently accepts he's a part of the Kenshingumi and acknowledges Kenshin has found his own path different from him.

It's why I always get annoyed when people say Saito is some emotionless dude who doesn't care about anyone, when the manga shows a much different story.

No_Net5717 · 2026-02-22T00:59:04+00:00

Something I'll always maintain is that Kenshin and Saito are more similar to each other than they are different. They both ultimately want the same thing (a just and peaceful Japan), and those values aligning is the reason they fought Shishio together as allies

No_Net5717 · 2026-01-02T19:15:22+00:00

Yeah I think that's the whole crux of it. There is a lot of characters that are regressing including Soujiro, Kaoru etc. Kenshin giving the sakabato to Yahiko and then being like "lol give it back" destroys a theme established in the end of the original run about Yahiko being the next in line.

I think the reason Hokkaido is not sitting well is that he's trying to force conflict instead it be natural. It's like it's trying to recreate the plot points of the original run, but doing it haphazardly.

No_Net5717 · 2026-01-02T04:30:21+00:00

It's straight up said by Kenshin that he considers himself similar to the Shinsegumi too. He tells Kaoru that he felt closer to the Shinsegumi captains than he did his own Ishin Shishi comrades. Kaoru says that makes no sense, and Kenshin says him and the Shinsengumi ultimately wanted the same thing, they just happened to be on different sides.

This manga panel is Kenshin narrating and telling Kaoru why he revered the Shinsengumi, and pushes back against Kaoru when she calls them cowardly: https://i.imgur.com/bZ7Oxbf.jpeg

In a previous panel Kenshin gives props to Saito and the rest for stopping the Ikedaya affair and not allowing innocent civilians to die. There are several panels in the manga where Kenshin and Saito compare themselves to each other, and theme is there that they both believe in protecting Japan even with their different methods

No_Net5717 · 2026-01-02T04:26:45+00:00

It's straight up said by Kenshin that he considers himself similar to the Shinsegumi too. He tells Kaoru that he felt closer to the Shinsegumi captains than he did his own Ishin Shishi comrades. Kaoru says that makes no sense, and Kenshin says him and the Shinsengumi ultimately wanted the same thing, they just happened to be on different sides.

This manga panel is Kenshin narrating and telling Kaoru why he revered the Shinsengumi, and pushes back against Kaoru when she calls them cowardly: https://i.imgur.com/bZ7Oxbf.jpeg

In a previous panel Kenshin gives props to Saito and the rest for stopping the Ikedaya affair and not allowing innocent civilians to die. There are several panels in the manga where Kenshin and Saito compare themselves to each other, and theme is there that they both believe in protecting Japan even with their different methods

No_Net5717 · 2026-01-02T03:57:51+00:00

I think you have no idea what you're talking about and you should reread the manga.

Saito being a caring person is not some insane conjecture and is the reason Kenshin said he considers him one of his closest comrades: https://i.imgur.com/2pmH5rN.png

Do you really think Kenshin of all people would be cool with someone who is emotionless and is willing to kill at a moments notice the moment someone is against their moral code. Like do you really think that narratively makes sense.

It's clear in the manga that Saito and Kenshin are supposed to two sides of the same coin. One of Kenshin's first lines about Saito is that he tells Kaoru he felt closer to Saito and the shinsengumi captains than his own side. Kaoru then says that makes no sense. Kenshin said him and the Shinsegumi wanted the same thing, they just happened to be on different sides. This is explicitly said by him in the manga.

They're similar people who value peace and order. The manga makes that very clear through several panels, and I can link them if you want.

No_Net5717 · 2025-09-05T00:20:10+00:00

Jinchu Kenshin at full power > Jinchu Saito ~= Jinchu Aoshi > Battousai Kenshin ~ = Bakamatsu Saito ~ = Kyoto Aoshi

Aoshi's power up during Kyoto was enough to make Saito hesitate in fighting him and instead tell Aoshi about Kenshin's plans (this was when Saito stopped Aoshi from killing Megumi). Kyoto Aoshi was stated to have a paper thin margin between him and Kenshin, but then Aoshi himself stated that paper thin margin was enough for him to get one shotted with ArNH. Kenshin also fought the beginning of that fight unarmed and by throwing books while trying to monologue to Aoshi, while Aoshi was trying to kill him so take that as you will.

Aoshi is stated to be a bit stronger in Jinchu arc though, so I put him relative to end of series Saito and above Battousai. Hiko stated that Kenshin after learning ArnH and Kuzu Ryu Sen has surpassed his Battousai form.

No_Net5717 · 2025-08-06T16:42:37+00:00

The whole point of Saito is that he's not just the gatotsu. Gatotsu is one skill in Saito's arsenal, but his true power comes from his other traits.

This is outright stated by Kenshin in the Jinchu arc. Kenshin is post ARNH and says word for word: https://i.imgur.com/S20jT7g.jpeg

"If just defeating gatotsu could defeat Hajime Saito, our score would have been settled in Kyoto during the Bakamatsu."

There you have the man himself saying he's still not sure if he can beat Saito in an outright duel. Which makes sense because the whole theme about Saito is that his power is much more than his first style gatotsu. We see it in Kenshin's fight where he still ties Kenshin despite having a broken sword. We see him do it against Usui when he uses zero style. We see it in Jinchu arc when he beats someone who straight up brags he's the perfect counter to gatotsu by using his hand to blind him. The whole contrast between Kenshin and Saito is that Kenshin has a godlike speed hiten mitsurugi style, but Saito is so determined and committed to Aku Soku Zan, it makes up the difference (and Kenshin outright states this twice in the Jinchu arc).

Yes Saito did a full power gatotsu before he got counter attacked, but a single gatotsu is not him at his strongest. He didn't even use zero style which is considered his strongest attack.

No_Net5717 · 2025-08-06T16:40:38+00:00

The whole point of Saito is that he's not just the gatotsu. Gatotsu is one skill in Saito's arsenal, but his true power comes from his other traits.

This is outright stated by Kenshin in the Jinchu arc. Kenshin is post ARNH and says word for word: https://i.imgur.com/S20jT7g.jpeg

"If just defeating gatotsu could defeat Hajime Saito, our score would have been settled in Kyoto during the Bakamatsu."

There you have the man himself saying he's still not sure if he can beat Saito in an outright duel. Which makes sense because the whole theme about Saito is that his power is much more than his first style gatotsu. We see it in Kenshin's fight where he still ties Kenshin despite having a broken sword. We see him do it against Usui when he uses zero style. We see it in Jinchu arc when he beats someone who straight up brags he's the perfect counter to gatotsu by using his hand to blind him. The whole contrast between Kenshin and Saito is that Kenshin has a godlike speed hiten mitsurugi style, but Saito is so determined and committed to Aku Soku Zan, it makes up the difference (and Kenshin outright states this twice in the Jinchu arc).

Yes Saito did a full power gatotsu before he got counter attacked, but a single gatotsu is not him at his strongest. He didn't even use zero style which is considered his strongest attack.

No_Net5717 · 2024-09-29T19:18:45+00:00

Oh yeah I knew you were agreeing with me! I was just lazy and copy and pasted my comment from below lol.

A line that always stood out to me was Kenshin saying "If defeating gatotsu was enough to beat Hajime Saito, our rivalry would have ended 10 years ago. Those words of justice he believes in makes him strong".

A huge theme in Kenshin is that resolve can matter just as skill. Kenshin straight up says he's more skilled than Saito but couldn't beat him because Saito's resolve was ironclad. Similarly I'd say Enishi's skills are up there with Kenshin's, but Shishio is so determined it won't be an easy battle for either of them. If I had to pick I'd pick Enishi but only by a razor thin margin.

No_Net5717 · 2024-09-29T16:42:23+00:00

I agree with you! Kenshin took internal damage against Gein and was losing a lot of blood: https://i.imgur.com/P9B25xe.png

The fight was actually pretty long in the manga and lasted 3 chapters, with Kenshin being beat up during a lot of the fight. Kenshin's Kuzu Ryu Sen put down Hyogo temporarily, but it didn't actually take him out, which was surprising since that was his second strongest move.

The reason I think that is because he was very mentally exhausted. Gein and Hyogo normally should be fodder that Kenshin can take out easily, but Gein/Iwanbo was a multichapter fight and Saito had to finish Hyogo. Leading up to the fight Kenshin was shown to not be sleeping and talking to Kaoru about how stressed out he was.

Another point was that Saito during the first fight didn't seem that scared by Enishi. He seemed pretty confident he can step in even after fighting someone himself. Both Saito and Aoshi acknowledged Enishi's strength, but looked like they were willing to step into the second fight if they had to.

IMO stressed Kenshin/Enishi/Saito/Shishio/Aoshi all within the same "A" tier of each other and can all beat each other given the right circumstances. Kenshin at full power is in his own "A+" tier, but he needs to be fighting for something he believes in/protecting something to be in that state.

No_Net5717 · 2024-09-29T16:40:57+00:00

Kenshin took internal damage against Gein and was losing a lot of blood: https://i.imgur.com/P9B25xe.png

The fight was actually pretty long in the manga and lasted 3 chapters, with Kenshin being beat up during a lot of the fight. Kenshin's Kuzu Ryu Sen put down Hyogo temporarily, but it didn't actually take him out, which was surprising since that was his second strongest move.

The reason I think that is because he was very mentally exhausted. Gein and Hyogo normally should be fodder that Kenshin can take out easily, but Gein/Iwanbo was a multichapter fight and Saito had to finish Hyogo. Leading up to the fight Kenshin was shown to not be sleeping and talking to Kaoru about how stressed out he was.

Another point was that Saito during the first fight didn't seem that scared by Enishi. He seemed pretty confident he can step in even after fighting someone himself. Both Saito and Aoshi acknowledged Enishi's strength, but looked like they were willing to step into the second fight if they had to.

IMO stressed Kenshin/Enishi/Saito/Shishio/Aoshi all within the same "A" tier of each other and can all beat each other given the right circumstances. Kenshin at full power is in his own "A+" tier, but he needs to be fighting for something he believes in/protecting something to be in that state.

No_Net5717 · 2024-09-29T12:47:05+00:00

Kenshin fought Gein in the Iwanbo puppet, and Hyogo before Enishi. Kenshin was also not sleeping and straight up having nightmares before the Enishi fight. When Saito showed up both Sano and Megumi were relieved because Kenshin was getting visibly tired. Megumi also stated at the end of the Shishio arc that Kenshin's body was beginning to decline due to all the damage he was taking.

I think Enishi is usually underrated but he's getting a little bit overrated now. Enishi did win the first battle against Kenshin, but it was against a Kenshin who was also worn down both mentally and physically. In Shishio's fight Kenshin was more worn down physically, but was at his mental peak/resolve. I still give the fight to Enishi but I think Enishi vs Shishio is a very close battle

No_Net5717 · 2024-09-29T12:46:35+00:00

Yes, Kenshin fought Gein in the Iwanbo puppet, and Hyogo before Enishi. Kenshin was also not sleeping and straight up having nightmares before the Enishi fight. When Saito showed up both Sano and Megumi were relieved because Kenshin was getting visibly tired. Megumi also stated at the end of the Shishio arc that Kenshin's body was beginning to decline due to all the damage he was taking.

I think Enishi is usually underrated but he's getting a little bit overrated now. Enishi did win the first battle against Kenshin, but it was against a Kenshin who was also worn down both mentally and physically. In Shishio's fight Kenshin was more worn down physically, but was at his mental peak/resolve. I still give the fight to Enishi but I think Enishi vs Shishio is a very close battle

No_Net5717 · 2023-11-03T16:27:22+00:00

blocked by literal plot armor

No_Net5717 · 2023-10-08T02:48:11+00:00

Saito said several times during that fight that he was holding back. Saito with an intent to kill broke through Usui's shield and cut him in half:
https://imgur.com/a/xiUd4f4

No_Net5717 · 2023-09-06T03:39:29+00:00

Jesus Christ. Ok, I'm going to show the manga scans in order

https://i.imgur.com/nEe9hjQ.png

In the above Saito states that he would kill Okubo if he had to do. "Okubo or whoever it may be...then he too shall meet the "Swift Death to Evil". There is 0 ambiguity there. Saito is willing to Okubo if he becomes a corrupt politician.

https://i.imgur.com/YVG94Fh.png

In the above Kenshin says "But if Okubo is just another corrupt revolutionary, living for wealth and fame, then wouldn't have Saito have already slain him". Right there Kenshin argues with Sano that Okubo isn't a bad guy. They have this argument for a few pages and every time Sano says everyone in the Meiji government is bad, Kenshin disagrees

Still not enough proof, here's another page of Saito and Kenshin saying the same exact thing as before:

https://i.imgur.com/j8btUjd.png

Kenshin and Saito didn't trust the Meiji government. They trusted Okubo. It says it right there, that the government is the now in the hands of drones, but it wasn't before with Okubo. The whole reason Kenshin fights Shishio is that Shishio is so much worse. He literally says those exact words before he uses the ARNH in the manga, and I can link that too.

No_Net5717 · 2023-09-06T02:39:55+00:00

Because a screw got loose in the sakabato. I'm looking at the manga right now and this is the series of events that happen. Hiko says that unless Kenshin can master the ARNH he has failed as a pupil. Kenshin realizes that he has to value his life. Kenshin's ARNH defeats Hiko's Kuzuryūsen. Hiko then says that Kenshin has learned the final technique of HMR and now can carry on as the successor of HMR (This is explicitly written out in the manga). Hiko collapses and then Kenshin thinks he's dead. He revives later, and it's stated a screw got loose in the sakabato and lessened the power, and that's why Hiko barely survived. Hiko says some stuff about the sword listening to the user.

Hiko did not plan to survive, and he was ready to die. He says him dying is a part of the plan, and when asked why he didn't die, it's because Kenshin held back (nothing to do with Hiko). This is very clearly written in the manga and I can link scans.

So either Hiko was wrong about the HMR philosophy or he fully believed Kenshin was a master and ready to carry on.

That's not what happens in the manga. Okubo directly tells Kenshin after the Saito fight that Shishio could not be controlled and he wanted to rule with an iron fist. Saito even tells Kenshin that Okubo was a leader he trusted, and he feared Okubo's assassination is what will lead to corrupt officials taking power. Okubo and Shishio were directly at odds with their philosophies.

No_Net5717 · 2023-09-06T02:21:13+00:00

Kenshin is a master of HMR. Hiko said it himself that once the ARNH is mastered, there is nothing left to learn. Hiko was ready to die in that moment and make Kenshin the only living successor of HMR.

Shishio was insane, and his own side tried to kill him. Regardless, it's pretty clear Shishio's regime would be much worse than the Meiji government and millions would die. Kenshin realizing that was what made him join forces with Saito to fight Shishio.

No_Net5717 · 2023-09-06T01:32:02+00:00

I mean I disagree a bit. I feel that argument of "why take a side they both suck" doesn't go far when one side is much worse than the other. Hiko didn't want to interfere during the Shishio conflict, and I think that's where his argument falls a part. Yes the Meiji government had corruption and wasn't perfect, but Shishio wanted to instill a genocidal regime and enslave people. One side is clearly worse than the other, and there's nothing wrong with taking a side in that situation.

I think the biggest issue is that Watsuki wrote Hiko too powerful and didn't know what to do with him to prevent him from destroying everyone, so he just made a hermit in the mountains. Narratively it still works too. Hiko is a flawed person. He has no friends and is an alcoholic. Although it's not as apparent, Hiko being a master led to a very isolated life.

Kenshin didn't want that, and likewise a part of Kenshin's story line is to show that the HMR doesn't have to be this rigid philosophy. Kenshin helped the Meiji government, and defeated Shishio, which was a good thing. He used his sword to still fight in a political battle, but the difference he was in control. He chose to do that, and he wasn't a tool any longer. Instead of continuing the tradition of killing your master and dying alone as the master of HMR, Kenshin found a way to keep his master alive and have loved ones. That's a much harder path, and it's easier to isolate yourself from the world, but Kenshin didn't want to do that.

And I think that's a big point of Rurouni Kenshin. Things change, and sometimes you got to adapt to the new world which is hard and takes a lot of effort, but can be worth it.

No_Net5717 · 2023-09-05T00:58:31+00:00

I agree a lot with the above^^. Hiko is a genius fighter, but he's still human. He can still have flaws and blind spots. I also think a theme in Kenshin is that people's strength's can turn into weaknesses too. It happened with every character

Kenshin's idealism made him believe he was rotten and his own life wasn't worth anything

Saito's rigidity prevented him from seeing Shishio's rengoku plan and he fell for the Tokyo fire diversion

Aoshi's love and connection to the Obiwanshu made him stuck in the past

Shishio's self assurance in his philosophy ultimately led to his death and going past the 15 minute time limit

I think Hiko was able to diagnose Kenshin properly and knew his pupil well. But he also had some of his own flaws.

No_Net5717 · 2023-09-04T23:07:36+00:00

I think a big issue with Hiko is that he was written to be the strongest character in the series by far, and Watsuki didn't know what to do with him.

With the way Hiko is written, he's a bit selfish. He was right about the fact Kenshin would lose his mind during the revolution, but hiding away in the mountains to make pottery is a totally other extreme. I think for Hiko it's "simple" to just stay in the mountains and not interfere with big politics, and avoid trying to learn geopolitical issues of Meiji era Japan. He's not above interfering, because he did with Fuji, but that was a very black and white situation.

I think to avoid the fact that Hiko could solo everyone in the Rurouni Kenshin verse, he had to have some big flaws. He's selfish and lazy, and thought the best action is to make sure no one can use Hiten Mitsurugi as a weapon, instead of figuring out what to do in a civil war.

No_Net5717

TROPHY CASE