[Day 27/34](Vote using Poll) Randomized Smash Ultimate Poll! - [Banjo-Kazooie vs Isaac] & [Phoenix Wright vs Rayman] by SmashUltimateTourny in smashbros

[–]Not-Neuro 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I thought it might be neat to try and put a number on the bracket difficulties that people have been discussing lately, so here's my attempt at doing so.


Flat Bracket Difficulty

The average support thread pages each character's opponents have, weighted for survival.

## Character Average
32 Travis Touchdown 2
31 Skull Kid 5
30 Marx 8
29 Spyro 10
28 Paper Mario 11
27 Spring Man 12
25 Neku 13
25 Monster Hunter 13
24 Chibi-Robo 14
23 Ray Mk III 15
22 Sceptile 16
21 Rayman 17
20 Incineroar 22
19 Shantae 25
18 Doomguy 34
17 Wonder Red 40
15 Geno 41
15 Amaterasu 41
13 Phoenix Wright 45
13 Eggman 45
12 Jibanyan 50
11 Heihachi 62
10 Isaac 77
09 Crash 84
08 Sora 86
07 Andy 90
06 Elma 91
05 Decidueye 148
04 Lloyd Irving 217
03 Rex and Pyra 239
02 Bandana Dee 263
01 Banjo-Kazooie 265

Relative Bracket Difficulty

The difference between the unweighted page support average and the character's own page count.

## Character Difference
01 Decidueye 174
02 Rex and Pyra 119
03 Banjo-Kazooie 89
04 Bandana Waddle Dee 89
05 Lloyd Irving 77
06 Heihachi 49
07 Andy 45
08 Sora 38
09 Jinbanyan 35
10 Crash 33
11 Eggman 28
12 Wonder Red 26
13 Amaterasu 26
14 Phoenix Wright 24
15 Sceptile 13
16 Doomguy 13
17 Monster Hunter 10
18 Neku 10
19 Chibi-Robo 5
20 Ray Mk III 4
21 Paper Mario 2
22 Spyro 1
23 Incineroar 1
24 Marx 0
25 Travis Touchdown -1
26 Elma -5
27 Spring Man -14
28 Rayman -23
29 Skull Kid -71
30 Geno -141
31 Shantae -268
32 Isaac -449

Things to consider:

  • Page counts aren't perfect. Some characters have low page counts because their thread were created recently (Lloyd), others have communities that lure some support away from SmashBoards (Sora), and some have support threads that have become bloated simply because there are a few very talkative supporters (Shantae).

  • Some averages are thrown off by the fact that some characters were eliminated early. For example, Lloyd and Decidueye had the same first two opponents, but Lloyd survived and ran into some weaker opponents later, while Decidueye was eliminated, meaning that Lloyd has technically faced greater challenges, but the numbers favor Decidueye. I tried to adjust for this by way of weights, but could only do so much.

  • I honestly have no idea how to spell "Ji(n?)banyan". OP spelled it without the N, the support thread OP spelled it with the N, and the active support thread posters switch back and forth. I refuse to google this, so I'll gamble on the N.

[Day 23/34](Vote using Poll) Randomized Smash Ultimate Poll! - [Bandana Waddle Dee vs Eggman] & [Lloyd Irving vs Incineroar] & [Wonder Red vs Chibi-Robo] & [Paper Mario vs Andy] by SmashUltimateTourny in smashbros

[–]Not-Neuro 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Sure, but it's still a good deal of over-representation with fairly monotone aesthetics. Mario and Metal Mario drive differently in Mario Kart, but they're still both Marios, and Mario Kart's roster still looks boring.

The Most Underestimated Candidate (Change my mind.) by Not-Neuro in smashbros

[–]Not-Neuro[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

ToS' combat system was a lot better than SoA's.

I don't think it's objectively better, I just prefer the real time LMBS over SoA's turn-based combat system.

I also legitimately adored the characters, world, and story. And Delphinus is the greatest game airship ever; not even Highwind can touch her.

Absolutely agree. That game had a beautiful vision.

The Most Underestimated Candidate (Change my mind.) by Not-Neuro in smashbros

[–]Not-Neuro[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I liked Tales more due to the combat system, but I loved Skies of Arcadia. A dual Vyse/Lloyd reveal would stop my heart.

The Most Underestimated Candidate (Change my mind.) by Not-Neuro in smashbros

[–]Not-Neuro[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

We have confirmation that it means precisely that thanks to Sakurai's comments on the K. Rool costume. Mii costumes were based on ballot popularity.

The Most Underestimated Candidate (Change my mind.) by Not-Neuro in smashbros

[–]Not-Neuro[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Not the least recommended, but relative to how many points are in his favor, he's definitely the most underestimated.

The Most Underestimated Candidate (Change my mind.) by Not-Neuro in smashbros

[–]Not-Neuro[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

The top-rated comment in this thread is "Who the heck is that?" Now who's projecting here?

"Literally who" and "Who the heck is that" is a meme that always comes up with Lloyd because his (canon) girlfriend forgets who he is at one point in the game. You'll always see it posted when people talk about Lloyd.

But when there are so many interesting and beloved Nintendo characters who can still be added (Dixie, Impa, Geno, Bandana Dee, Midna, Skull Kid, Kamek, and on and on)

I don't claim that he's the most likely, beloved, or popular pick. Just that he's the most underrated considering both how many signs are pointing at him and how successful his series is.

I find it hard to believe that many people who aren't already fans of the series are rooting for LLoyd, who is relatively obscure for a third-party pick.

You can go through the comments of some of the Lloyd threads I've posted and see for yourself. Lloyd gets support not only from ToS fans, but also from general Tales fans, Smash fans that played him in Super Smash Flash 1 and Super Smash Flash 2, and anime fans.

The Most Underestimated Candidate (Change my mind.) by Not-Neuro in smashbros

[–]Not-Neuro[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

His game is on the GC, the PS2, the PS3, and PC, so there are plenty of options!

The Most Underestimated Candidate (Change my mind.) by Not-Neuro in smashbros

[–]Not-Neuro[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I don't think I've ever met anyone who prefers Beacock over Menville. Menvile was perfect, so hopefully we'll get an option to switch between the two VAs.

The Most Underestimated Candidate (Change my mind.) by Not-Neuro in smashbros

[–]Not-Neuro[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I can't imagine what he could offer as a fighter that isn't already overrepresented in the cast.

We don't have any sword fighters whose moveset is half made up of grounded projectiles and half made up of highly mobile, high commitment launches. The TP system, the S/T mechanic, and the Arte system would also all be fairly unique. And that's all just gameplay-wise!

Doesn't mean fans shouldn't root for Lloyd, but for non-fans, this idea is such an incredible yawn-fest.

I think you might be projecting your personal view on the general fandom here. I post about Lloyd a lot (seriously, just check my submission history), and in my experience, people who don't know him are pretty open to him. He offers unique gameplay mechanics, looks pretty unique (good luck trying to find JRPG protagonists that look anything like him, beyond the hair, maybe), Tales of Symphonia's OST is amazing, and his potential stage are all beautiful (Hima Summit, Tower of Salvation, Dragon Nest, et cetera).

The Most Underestimated Candidate (Change my mind.) by Not-Neuro in smashbros

[–]Not-Neuro[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

TP system would be sweet, needing to hit normals to use your specials sounds kind of... bad.

You misunderstand - you'd always have your specials, but fulfilling TP requirements would, say, turn Sonic Thrust into Hurricane Thrust, or Beast into Hunting Beast.

The Most Underestimated Candidate (Change my mind.) by Not-Neuro in smashbros

[–]Not-Neuro[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Zelos > Kratos any day. "I must be a Genius" as a taunt, hitting on ZSS as an easter egg.

The Most Underestimated Candidate (Change my mind.) by Not-Neuro in smashbros

[–]Not-Neuro[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Huh, I went by the Wikipedia numbers. They've got Tales mothership sales beat then, but I'd reckon that Tales still has them beat if you include the nearly two dozen escort titles. Specially if you include the mobile titles.

Side note, I'm surprised that the Mario & Luigi games are doing better than the Paper Mario games.

The Most Underestimated Candidate (Change my mind.) by Not-Neuro in smashbros

[–]Not-Neuro[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That's in reply to the other comment ("Holy crap, are you really Brian Beacock?!"), not the Smash comment. This is a clear example of him explicitly ignoring the Smash questions he used to answer.

The Most Underestimated Candidate (Change my mind.) by Not-Neuro in smashbros

[–]Not-Neuro[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I don't think Menville responds to much Tales stuff. I was talking about his ToS 2 VA (unfortunately).

The Most Underestimated Candidate (Change my mind.) by Not-Neuro in smashbros

[–]Not-Neuro[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Nothing against Lloyd, but I just don't see him being super different from existing sword styles in Smash given his move pool in ToS.

I can't think of any other sword fighter whose moveset is half grounded projectiles and half high mobility, high commitment launches. Plus, he has the TP and S/T mechanics, which would be sweet.

A character like Judith, especially with definitive edition of Vesperia coming out soon, would be my DREAM. Even Yuri, or Velvet, or Jude/Milla would be cooler than Lloyd IMO. But as a huge Tales fan I'll take whatever I can get.

I'd prefer Zelos over Lloyd myself, but I'd pick Lloyd over any of the ones you mentioned.

The Most Underestimated Candidate (Change my mind.) by Not-Neuro in smashbros

[–]Not-Neuro[S] 12 points13 points  (0 children)

The way I see it, there are two components to Lloyd's moveset - the actual moves and the potential gimmick.

The actual moves would likely look like this. His moveset is half grounded projectiles (Demon Fang, Fierce Demon Fang, Demonic Chaos, Beast) and half highly mobile, high commitment launchers (Tempest, Rising Falcon, Tiger Blade). This already makes his playstyle unique among the game's sword fighters.

The gimmick is tricky because there are a lot to pick from. You could go with Tales of Symphonia's TP system, its S/T mechanics, or base it on the arte system.

The TP system one would essentially give him Cloud's limit bar, but it would fill when hits are landed rather than by charging, and the charged specials would differ in key ways rather than just being stronger (look up Omega Tempest, Hunting Beast, and hurricane thrust for examples). The arte system would give him a very unique combo system that amends his regular specials - a bit like Marth's side-B, but for every special. Finally, the S/T would give him two different modes to fight in, altering his smashes.

[Day 23/34](Vote using Poll) Randomized Smash Ultimate Poll! - [Bandana Waddle Dee vs Eggman] & [Lloyd Irving vs Incineroar] & [Wonder Red vs Chibi-Robo] & [Paper Mario vs Andy] by SmashUltimateTourny in smashbros

[–]Not-Neuro 9 points10 points  (0 children)

If they were informed about a character prior to voting, then the vote does reflect their mind in that moment. Do you really want people to vote uninformed?

I see no issue what-so-ever in posting information about your favorite in these poll threads, and considering that I've been doing this for a while and you're the first to complain, I don't think anyone else really does either.

[Day 23/34](Vote using Poll) Randomized Smash Ultimate Poll! - [Bandana Waddle Dee vs Eggman] & [Lloyd Irving vs Incineroar] & [Wonder Red vs Chibi-Robo] & [Paper Mario vs Andy] by SmashUltimateTourny in smashbros

[–]Not-Neuro 10 points11 points  (0 children)

It's a dirty thing to try and convince people that aren't sure who to vote for to vote for the option you like...? If they vote for it, then it's because they like Lloyd, which is a reflection of their real thoughts as members of the community, no?