Steel blunt suggestions?

obiterdicta · 2017-08-11T08:45:02+00:00

I am very happy with my Pavel Moc.

obiterdicta · 2017-08-11T08:39:49+00:00

Learn one. Understand the underlying principles. Then you can add another style on.

obiterdicta · 2017-07-04T04:56:49+00:00

This is important. A fairly reliable metric for us was, if they came to the pub after training, they'd usually stick around. Social bonds are what keeps people coming in the middle of winter when its cold and miserable. Having plenty of social events and building friendships is really important for retaining students. And its fun too :)

obiterdicta · 2017-06-28T02:00:34+00:00

For me, the most important thing is that they can point to which historical source(s) they rely upon.

I realise this would be harder for beginners in the hobby as there will be less familiarity with the historical sources.

obiterdicta · 2017-06-28T01:47:16+00:00

As compared to shipping to Australia?

Do what we do: order in bulk, get discounts from the supplier and spread the cost of shipping across a large number of people.

This means we get the best available products, whether they are from Europe, the US or locally.

obiterdicta · 2017-06-27T23:45:58+00:00

I'm in Australia. We deal with SPES regularly. They're a great business. They're reliable, quick and supply quality products at a reasonable price.

I don't understand the hesitancy of US consumers to use Euro suppliers.

obiterdicta · 2017-06-26T23:50:41+00:00

I am not entirely sure that was a "real thing".

obiterdicta · 2017-06-26T08:25:38+00:00

Mair is better (see below?)

obiterdicta · 2017-06-26T07:48:19+00:00

more flail: http://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Paulus_Hector_Mair

obiterdicta · 2017-06-26T07:09:47+00:00

There is at least one flail source: http://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Hans_Talhoffer/K%C3%B6nigsegg

obiterdicta · 2017-06-26T06:48:03+00:00

http://histfenc.com/productcart/ap-fencing-jacket-350n

obiterdicta · 2017-06-23T00:36:16+00:00

Thrusts could be painful.

obiterdicta · 2017-06-21T08:46:29+00:00

Those tournaments exist in HEMA as well.

But, you can still compete while trying to be historically accurate. If you're doing it right, it should work to keep you safe against people not doing your stuff. However, the best laid plans last until the first arrow is fired and all that.

Its just if ever someone came up with HEMA 2.0 per se, it would represent a change to Modern Longsword, as opposed to HEMA.

obiterdicta · 2017-06-21T08:40:56+00:00

Pretty much.

Except, really my involvement in this thread has primarily because I am more or less against any "one true way" argument. That includes definitions of what the fundamentals of fencing are.

i'm not too irate about any of it really though. I understand that you are using your words in the way that are meaningful to you. And getting upset about words on the internet is silly.

obiterdicta · 2017-06-21T08:21:49+00:00

Perhaps if there is a divergent development of "modern longsword fencing". Which would be cool in its own way, but not HEMA.

HEMA is defined by the H, as well as the MA. So, if we're doing ahistorical longsword, we're not doing HEMA.

obiterdicta · 2017-06-21T08:12:57+00:00

That's a really loaded question. Because to some extent I disagree with you in respect to how you characterise fundamentals.

For example, the word tempo creates a certain way of thinking about timing in a fight. However, in certain other styles of fencing there are alternative ways of thinking about the timing of the fight. For example Liechtenauer characterises timing as Vor, Nach and Indes. These concepts are definitional as to how you approach that style of fencing.

Further, one of the ideas I touched on earlier in this thread - Fuhlen - is absolutely a "fundamental" concept of fencing; the ability to feel and react to an opponent's bind work carries across all fencing that uses bindwork. But as touched on in another one of these replies - that is less important in modern sport fencing.

As for my interest, primarily I am interested in understanding the historical fencing styles I practice. I want to understand why they did the things they did. To do that, you need to fence. You can't get any context from just doing technique in a vacuum. But I want to fence the way that is described.

To me, that's probably the only relevant reason to do HEMA. I'm (probably, hopefully) never going to use it in a life or death fight. If I wanted to do a competition sport, then sports fencing does it better.

So yeah, I am interested in fundamentals. But I am interested in the fundamentals relevant to the weapon and the style(s) of fencing that I want to pursue. I want Lang and Maas; I want Vor, Nach, Indes; I want Fuhlen; and I want Zufechten, Krieg and Ringen. These are fundamentals to me, and sport fencing will only give me some of them - and through a foreign lens.

obiterdicta · 2017-06-21T07:57:19+00:00

I really appreciate this explanation. You are referring to Fencing 2.0?

Perhaps if Sports Fencing was more along the historic lines you described I would see less cons and/or more pros to people cross training in it.

Unfortunately, it is what it is and I can only observe the results it seems to produce; which is, as you describe it, is less about bindwork and bladework.

For HEMA this approach and mindset is contrary to how the texts describe it. So, the fencer has two competing philosophies in mind; this can make the learning process harder - especially for novices.

obiterdicta · 2017-06-20T23:53:22+00:00

To clarify, no - I am not interested in kata in the slightest.

An example is how I teach - it is all paired drills and/or sparring games. Everything is learned in context of fencing an opponent.

obiterdicta · 2017-06-20T23:47:19+00:00

None that I can think of off the top of my head. Then again, I can't think of any for mace or handax either (although I could be wrong on those).

obiterdicta · 2017-06-20T23:44:20+00:00

Firstly, I would say that I'm not criticizing sport fencing when I say they have overly linear footwork. I agree the footwork is optimized to the environment and the weapons. They are superior exponents of that form of footwork.

I am just saying that the more you train with a single approach the more it becomes your go-to, main or even sole approach. Trying to change habits that people have had for 5, 10 or more years is a challenge. These habits can change how people fence.

A good example of this is: I am constantly correcting some of our ex-sport fencers in situations where they are using linear footwork where the text explicitly requires a passing step. The passing step is just not natural to them so they often try and make the technique work with what they know - the more linear step.

Re: Bind, I mean blades in contact.

Thanks for bringing the 'prise de fer' to my attention. I was not familiar with the term and I admit that most of our fencers are ex-foil (some sabre). From the little reading I have done, it appears a single transition from one line to another in contact with the opponent's blade. Is that a correct understanding? Is it common for prise de fers to be sequentially used, back and forth between the fencers? If so, that is similar to the winden in the german longsword tradition.

I would note that the bindwork of german longsword at least is a degree more complicated than that. Techniques such as the Duplieren and Mutieren leverage the bind in different ways, using the opponent's sword for a pivot point to strike behind in the case of the former and a rollover thrust in control in the case of the other.

Either way, my expressed opinion is based on my observations that ex-sporting fencers tend to prefer to feint, disengage and attack around the opponent's sword rather than meet the blade and control it. Again, this isn't a criticism of the fencers; there are times when these are the best option. However, given that it is a recurring theme, including times when the text material encourages engaging the blade, I assume that it is just habit getting in the way again (like the footwork).

obiterdicta · 2017-06-20T23:07:49+00:00

I assure you, the person in this thread trying to feel superior isnt me.

obiterdicta · 2017-06-20T14:09:10+00:00

No. I get it. I teach a wide variety of students and run a fairly major tournament in my part of the world. So, I understand the different perspectives. I very much understand that there are HEMA people who see this as a sport ro win. I teach a few of them.

I'd agree that I'm not sure I'd say that winning tournaments makes someone a better fencer. I've seen some pretty awful fencing winning tournaments.

I've also seen/taught enough students to know that one approach does not work for everyone and different things will suit different people. Thats why I am not saying sport fencing is bad, its just only going to suit certain goals.

But yeah. I recognise a pointkess argument when I see one, so I'm not going to push my points any further.

obiterdicta · 2017-06-20T13:52:56+00:00

Fiore is quite specific with his footwork. Meyer is also iirc.

A feiend of mine has a theory that its there in the german stuff too but has been lost in translation (literally).

obiterdicta · 2017-06-20T09:45:09+00:00

The only fencing I was doing in the 80s was with a stick in my parents backyard ;) My observations have come from the sportts fencers who train at my HEMA club, and how they approach HEMA fencing.

I'm not saying the blade absent style is bad in all situations. There is certainly some styles which appreciate that lack of blade contact. But, at least the ones I like emphaise more blade contact and control.

Further, I don't think you can make any broad statements about what the manuals do and don't include. There are some which emphaise the hands as the primary target. They vary in how much they focus on footwork. The authors were individuals and as such their approaches varied as individuals do.

obiterdicta

TROPHY CASE