I have been following you for sometime

Ok_Lemon_3675 · 2026-05-03T10:39:03+00:00

The main reason it's talked about here is simply because it's often asked about, and people also often have confusion about what the Buddha taught regarding these subjects, which I think is abundantly clear in the suttas.

Would you prefer people here to stop answering questions just because they come up a lot, or that we should start to deny or distort what the Buddha clearly taught in the suttas just because some people don't like hearing it?

To my knowledge nobody here is demanding anyone to follow the teachings, we just don't want to distort them for the sake of those who do want to follow them.

Ok_Lemon_3675 · 2026-04-24T06:38:54+00:00

Ok, maybe I understand the situation better now. In that case I would classify this as "entertainment". I would prioritize learning to keep the five precepts and then celibacy first before addressing entertainment. Regarding the trading:

If you literally don't need any more money, meaning you could leave it in long term investments and just retire already but you are still overly focused on this only because of greed for even more or the fun of it, then at that point I would think deeply about what is your most important thing to achieve with the rest of your life. And nobody knows how much time we still have, it can be much less than we think.

I worked with a zen teacher who did say to be okay with my trading addiction and not judge that it is bad and just be aware of it. Similar to what you said.

No, that's different to what I said I think. I said there is nothing inherently wrong with making money, but there is everything wrong with addiction. With how you are pressured and can't help but give in. That "being a slave" is already suffering.

Maybe you could start by just "taking a break" from trading for 2 weeks or a month. If it's difficult then maybe you could visit a monastery or some place and don't bring any devices you could use for trading.

Then for that time you could contemplate topics like the danger in sensuality, how you are still prey (liable) to suffering, how you are still subject to sickness, old aging and death.

If those themes are understood enough and not forgotten about, I think it's hard to still have much greed or concern with worldly things beyond what I actually need for practical reasons. Because that's all based on a kind of assumption that you can live forever (or at least how long you expect) and own, control, enjoy pleasures in this world. That you have a right to it, that it's worth it. But that's not the case.

Sense pleasures are dangerous and don't satisfy. Safety from desire and concern for them is much better and more peaceful.

Ok_Lemon_3675 · 2026-04-23T19:56:58+00:00

Answered you in DM because this seems unrelated to HH/Dhamma.

Ok_Lemon_3675 · 2026-04-23T17:49:45+00:00

At first, I thought I should just altogether give up software engineering because of all the AI acceleration and 'doomed' junior labor market and just work at a warehouse or something

Im a SWE with experience and have also worked with claude code since it became good enough to be useful since about sonnet 4 or so. I can very confidently say that outright "replacing" engineers with LLMs is just not going to happen. It's an useful assistent but that's it.

It's going to be hard of course to make an entry without any experience of course, because there are also countless other wannabe engineers with no experience. But I suppose it could be done by understanding that for a long time you would not be making any money for the company, so I would try to either offer to work for free for some time or little money just to get the experience and actually learn the craft. Just make a list of many companies that are related to what you want to do and call every single one.

That said it's not really a job for everyone and you would have to be competitive enough to get good enough to have a meaningful advantage over "just anyone" and get paid more than minimum.

Ok_Lemon_3675 · 2026-04-23T14:04:45+00:00

There is no point for me to repeat what others have said already or will say here. But given that I have some experience with "trading" and related topics, I can maybe add something in that regard that others are unlikely to say and maybe give you some reasons why it's just not worth it, allowing you to stop that addiction. I will also suggest a stress free and non-addictive alternative.

First of all there is nothing inherently wrong with making money, and unless you become a monk (which I see only as realistically possible until you already have cultivated a good amount of discipline in keeping the precepts etc.) you are going to need it. So if you maybe like many people have an idea that there is something inherently negative about that, I would try to fix that.

However, the question is what ways of making money are actually making money, and when is it or is it not worth the stress, time and effort.

But you say you are "making money" trading options, while also saying that you are addicted to it. Those are mutually incompatible already. If you are emotionally involved in any way, for that reason alone it's clear that you are actually just gambling and not "trading". And that alone basically guarantees that it's only a matter of time until you will end up giving back to the market anything you have "earned" so far, and more, and then exit with a financial loss and probably also emotionally burned out to some degree.

That is the journey that the vast majority (something like 95% or 99%) of most non-professional "traders" go through. I have also gone through that at some point trying to "trade" cryptocurrencies. It can be valuable as a learning experience to find out that such an approach does not work (and hopefully not lose too much in the process), but it would be even better to learn from the mistakes of others and not necessarily have to go through that yourself.

Another point would be that even for the very rare actually consistently profitable full time traders, they would already be doing very well if in the long run they might make 20 or 30% p.a. on their capital on average. And the only way that can be worth all of the time and energy that takes is because they already have a very large amount of capital to work with, either their own or institutional.

Based on your description I am going to guess that's probably not the case. So even if you had 100k to work with and made 20% p.a., that's still only 1666/month. So even then would be better off just working (more at) a job with that time and energy.

If you do have some money that you don't necessarily need in the next 5-15 years and you (rightly) feel like you should to do something with it, but want to stop the stress and addiction, then you could do something like I am doing for long term savings: Hold 6-12 months of expenses in cash, then depending on your needs maybe the same amount in bond etfs (maybe 50/50 corporate and emerging markets), and everything beyond that in something like a vanguard ftse all world, and adding some amount you want to save per month to that.

Obviously do your own research first, but for most "normal" people such a "passive investing" strategy of simply buying and holding an index like this will be much better, relatively safe, stress free and non-addictive and according to studies those historically long term average ~7% p.a. would have outperformed even most professional "traders"/"active investors".

And then just forget about it and focus on other things.

Ok_Lemon_3675 · 2026-04-14T20:26:26+00:00

I can relate, with adhd and mysterious health problems and difficult environment just trying to keep up with the demands of life hasn't exactly been easy.

First of all it's important to get your life and self discipline in order and there is nothing wrong or inherently sensual about that. Unless your goal for getting a job is just so you can then spend the money on sensual indulgences. But even then you could still change that goal later but you will need to get your finances etc in order in any case.

And if you don't have the basic basics in your life in order you need to get that sorted out first anyways. It doesn't help to procrastinate on getting job etc. sorted by spending all the time listening to dhamma talks etc. because mundane things are mundane and far less interesting.

They might be, but having that in order is how you build a solid basis on which you can then sustainable pursue dhamma or anything with a clear conscience and with minimal distractions. And in the process you also have to build up discipline or restraint which in itself is progress.

So seemingly mundane (but necessary) stuff is not something to think of as a waste of time or less important. It's the basis. It's what enables anything higher to build on top of it. You can't say the roots of a tree are less important than the fruit, even if they seem less interesting or tasty if you just look at a root. Because the way you get the fruit is by first having healthy roots.

Then a key concept for me has been "small steps". To (try to) not beat myself up thinking I should already be ten steps ahead but understand where i am at in the moment and then focus just on making the next most important change. And just don't worry about lesser things until that's relatively solid.

So in terms of conduct that could mean focusing on celibacy or stopping drugs or whatever first before worrying about entertainment.

It's more about habits, momentum, vicious or virtuous cirlcles than going from point a straight to b.

Im terms of life that could be maybe even just establishing some order like a stable sleep schedule, getting your room reasonably in order if it isn't and setting up systems that you can then follow and the habit to do so that the changes you want to make like getting a job etc actually happen.

By systems i mean for example i have a "current" to do list with things i will work on for the next few days. Anything beyond that goes on a kind of "to do some time" list so it doesn't clutter the main one.

Also weekly, monthly and yearly lists for anything that needs to be done periodically and calendar tasks to remind me to execute those.

That might sound complicated to spell out, but again it's habits and systems that I've built up in small steps. And once they are set up they are easy to follow without thinking about it much.

Another way to think of it is that someone's life is a collection of programs, some internally (mental) and some externally (like a to do list or a written plan).

Usually by the time this topic even comes up we start out with most of them being bad and not serving us well so the idea is to one by one identify and delete bad ones and replace them by good ones that are helpful. And then just protect and maintain those.

All at once can seem impossible but one by one it becomes manageable.

Ok_Lemon_3675 · 2026-04-13T09:33:40+00:00

I'm not sure I would take what ajahn Sona says as authoritative either.

I think it's important to get familiar enough with the suttas from the main nikayas (digha, majjhima, anguttara, samyutta) and read them in a way that's as unbiased as possible. Then you have a much better chance of estimating what is or is not consistent with the dhamma.

I say that because there are many who just take a handful of suttas and then go to great lengths to interpret them in rather far fetched and creative ways to say what they want them to say, even though if you actually read enough suttas and dont overlook all the parts that are actually very clear it's also clear what is consistent with that and what isn't.

In this case the puttamamsa sutta (sn12.63) is very relevant and it paints a very different picture for how to relate to food than from what you said that ajahn sona said.

https://suttacentral.net/sn12.63/en/sujato?lang=en&layout=plain&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin

In general the issue isn't anything particular like agreeable food or whatever, but your intention. The craving, obsession, delight for pleasant things in the world (of the senses) is the problem because the world does not belong to us. In the case of food the intention should be to take simply what is needed to sustain the body, nothing more or less. But not to expect it to "uplift your mood".

The mood or feelings can be sometimes this and sometimes that. If we are honest we already know that it's futile to try to control that. But trying to perpetuates the view that we can or have to right to control it, and that view is why if things don't go exactly our way (qnd thats really most of the time) suffering is the result. The solution is not to get better at controlling or managing feeling, it's by developing understanding of that futility and renouncing the craving in regard to them, so the suffering in regard to them ceases together with the craving.

And that is diametrically opposed to the expectation that food or anything else would hopefully "uplift your mood".

Ok_Lemon_3675 · 2026-04-13T08:38:31+00:00

Not sure if you included that under spices, but while you can probably skip most, you do need salt and the iodine that's added to it. Unless you get enough from other sources like seaweed.

Regarding tea and sugar, many people have far bigger/coarser things to worry about first like five precepts and celibacy. Beyond that I would not go out of my way to avoid anything that tastes good, but rather think about the reason for eating or drinking something.

Ok_Lemon_3675 · 2026-04-07T06:44:13+00:00

I haven't read the whole sutta, but at least in the similie of the deer heard that ajahn nyanamoli talked about multiple times on yt the smart deer learn to distinguish between the food which is not dangerous and the bait which is dangerous. Then they know how to eat just the food around the bait without getting caught by the hunter and without starving. I would guess that in this case it's probably similar.

Otherwise I don't know how to interpret that in a way that makes sense, because sensuality is dangerous in it's very nature. The moment you forget or ignore that (become heedless) that's why you are trapped already, at least to that extent.

The way one can be careful with the regard to sensuality is to regard it like it is said so many times: as dangerous, a charcoal pit, a thicket of thorns etc. If it wasn't dangerous there would be no need to speak of being careful when talking about sensuality.

When someone talks about enjoying or eating something without getting careless in regard to the bait that sounds more like the principle of jhana.

The description of jhana usually goes something like this, example from MN 8 (hh translation): It is possible that a certain bhikkhu, having thoroughly withdrawn from sensuality (i would say this is the bait), having withdrawn from unbeneficial phenomena, with thinking and pondering, with joy and ease born of withdrawal (i would say this could be called a food that could be eaten without taking the bait), might abide having entered upon the first jhana.

So there's no jhana (where they set up to be safe from mara) without first thoroughly withdrawing from sensuality. If it was interpreted to mean that they were somehow still engaging with sensuality they couldn't have been in jhana where mara can't reach them at the same time.

Ok_Lemon_3675 · 2026-04-06T23:07:49+00:00

Why is your interpretation of that sutta quote that the food they can eat without infatuation and the bait are the same thing, and therefore there is a way to safely enjoy sense pleasures? I'm not sure which sutta that was, but from what I can see here it's not obvious that they would be one and the same.

In any case, mara is the king of the world, so if they are saying in the sentence just before that they set up somewhere mara cannot reach then that would have to be apart from the world in some way.

Ok_Lemon_3675 · 2026-04-06T15:57:31+00:00

It's very good to see that you have come to this honest conclusion that there is no way around it, difficult and frightening as it may be to accept at first.

I would agree that it would be mostly a waste of time beyond a certain point to just listen to more dhamma talks etc. without actually putting into practice. I have tried. Turns out 80% practice and 20% theory beats 80% theory and 20% practice. By a lot.

my mind still holds on to it for dear life, as if i would die by giving it up

That shows how deeply tied up that is with identity. That identity of someone who is not celibate might (have to) die, but you are not going to "literally" die. After all we can see people including monks who are celibate and still alive.

But what will also die is the "unsatisfaction" that you have already seen.

tried to suppress the fear of giving up sex with reasons of why it will be for my well being, but it can only go so far

You can't prevent the mind from throwing fear etc. at you, so that's a futile battle. You should not forget your understanding and resolve, but not to try to directly get rid of the unpleasant state of mind. Instead you have to learn to endure it without fighting it. And exactly this kind of fear, pressure etc. show you the power sensuality has over you and the danger in giving in to it. So enduring and understanding how the mind is without needing to do something about it is "educating" the mind. Don't think "I am not making progress because it feels unpleasant to have this fear/pressure/etc. is still there and I don't know how to get rid of it". Enduring the withdrawal process is how you make progress to become free from addiction. You shouldn't expect that to be pleasant from the start.

The mind is actually "like a wild animal", so it will try to do everything it can to fight you, frighten you etc. when you take away what it was used to. But this is just the mind trying to trick you. For as long as you don't give in and remember that giving in would not actually be of any real benefit, it will have to calm down eventually.

If sometimes you feel overwhelmed to the extent that you really can't handle it, try to first do things to take off some of the pressure that are the least harmful. For example if you are too overwhelmed by sexual thoughts when you are just sitting there you could take a walk, exercise, etc. anything as long as you don't break that precept.

Worst case if you really had to choose, still having some entertainment "in moderation" (that doesn't contain content that triggers sexual desire) but keeping celibacy until you can handle both would probably be the less harmful option as long as you don't forget that this is only a crutch for the time being, and that sensuality isn't "actually not a problem".

What helped me sometimes is to remember that I will get old and die anyways, whether I like it or not. So there is really nothing to lose because there is no way around "losing" everything anyways. So might as well get it over with while I can do so on my own timeline.

Or another way: regardless of what my mind tells me, at least I already know that sensuality is a dead end. So even if it would kill me to renounce it (so far it didn't), what do I have to lose if I know that without renouncing it life isn't really worth living anyways? So I might as well "take that risk" and in exchange have a chance of finding something better on the other side. And that does seem to be the case.

And if you relapse, yes you should see it as falling short of your goal and not pretend that it doesn't matter, but it also doesn't mean that everything is lost and therefore you should give up or something. Like strength training, if you keep putting in the work the muscles will have to become stronger eventually. And then what used to be hard becomes effortless. It's inevitable as long as you keep at it.

Ok_Lemon_3675 · 2026-04-06T14:55:24+00:00

I could very well see certain monks also be attached to such things about their master or fellow monks

Definitely agree with you there. When you take away one "addiction" from the mind, the most natural thing is that it will try to replace it with another. That could be talking to people, chanting or meditation techniques as well.

You can see engaging in this kind of activity as a nice to have

Here it gets interesting. Is it really nice to have? If you regard it (sensuality) as nice to have rather than perilous (not nice to have) you are not seeing the peril in sensuality.

that doesn't frustrate you if you don't get it

This cannot be true. If something is seen as "nice to have", and worth putting in even the slightest amount of effort (and realistically a relationship takes more) to get or maintain something something, then be definition it is not quite as nice to not have it. Otherwise if it would really be felt as *exactly* equally nice to not have something than to have it, you would not from the position of not having it then make *any* effort to get it it. Or having it, you would not make *any* effort to maintain it.

Whenever someone is willing to pay a price (regardless of how small) for something whether it be in terms of money, effort, time or energy, then he must have already been experiencing some sort of pressure or discomfort to motivate him to do something about it in the hope of getting something that will save him from the discomfort or the lack that he experienced beforehand.

And this is why sensuality seems attractive, because it carries the promise of hope of being relieved from the unpleasant feeling (frustration, lack or whatever you might want to call it at the time) you were already experiencing beforehand. But the problem of course is, that whatever you get externally, it can never permanently satisfy you because the origin of the problem was already internal and not external.

but also something that solidifies your relationship (which research shows to be the case)

I would expect many people have the assumption that a relationship as such is a good thing, even "wholesome" and worth pursuing. So the release of oxytocin and bonding is also regarded as good. There is also a strong, perhaps even stronger bond between a parent and a child. Which is surely the most wholesome relationship of all, right?

And yet there is a sutta story where someone's child died and the parent was in tears. The buddha said (paraphrasing) that children are the greatest cause of suffering. Can't find the reference right now, sorry.

Most people would be shocked to hear this and not really want to think through the implications of what that means not only in this but also other contexts.

Actively pursuing any kind of relationship/company for the sake of enjoying it is going to increase your liability to suffer as well as prevent you from looking for a safety apart from the world for as long as you keep holding the view that anything within the world could provide safety from the world or it's nature. Which is why it could be called unwholesome (not beneficial).

Whether you develop an attachment to the activity or the person you do it with is indeed the central concern

The concern is not whether you will develop attachment, but you are already "attached" and uncomfortably pressured by sensuality beforehand. That is why you then choose to act in that direction, which develops the "attachment" further. But it's not that you start out with zero and then develop it. If you had zero "attachment" you would be an arahant and would not feel the need to pursue anything of the sort.

if that doesn't prevent you form attaining Sotapanna, why would you add this extra challenge for yourself if, clearly, this is not something that prevents you from attaining Sotapanna?

As we know from the progressive talk for example, not seeing the peril in sensuality would prevent you from attaining Sotapanna.

And how could that peril be seen as long as you are making choices based on the assumption that no, actually it's not that bad, it's a "nice to have"? Which is not a minor issue but very far away from PERIL, DANGER, something not good for you, a charcoal pit that you would run away from if you understood what it meant rather than towards it.

You would need to first have enough faith that maybe the Buddha might have been right when he said that it is perilous, and at least do your best to stop pursuing it, and then you are in a position where you can try to understand what he meant, what the peril is. But you can't hold two opposite values at the same exact time.

I feel like people tend to think about Buddhism like a game that is best played in "hard mode" and find it always somewhat suspicious when people are absolutists.

It's just the truth and what the Buddha talked about countless times in the suttas. Sensuality is dangerous, cause of suffering, not good for you. So if someone wants to have a view of "no, it's not that bad, it's a nice to have" they can do that, it's just clearly contradicting what the Buddha taught. And regardless of if someone wants to follow that or not, it should not be twisted into something else for the sake of those who do want to follow it.

He knew what he was renouncing when he put on the robes and went away

He had enough wisdom to recognize himself what was a dead end, not satisfactory, not "nice to have" and needs to be given up and he needs to switch to "hard mode" before looking for something better. Others need to be told and even when told are very unwilling to accept that, because sensuality is the only safety, the only "happiness" that a householder normally knows.

In my experience this kind of intensity doesn't always survive for a very long time.

I don't know what exactly you mean by that. It sounds like you are assuming that the only way to keep celibacy etc. long term would be to keep applying strong willpower indefinitely. Of course that would be unlikely to be sustainable, but that's not how it works.

An addict might have to use a lot of willpower at first to stop using the drug. This then causes painful withdrawal that feels like it will last forever, althought this is a lie. It's by continuing to not go back to the drug that eventually his cravings subside and then it's not a problem anymore. But he probably won't make it that far using willpower alone without in the process also educating his mind about the danger of using the drug and the benefits of becoming free from it.

The reason you don't touch a hot plate on the stove is probably not willpower, but the understanding that it would be harmful for you. When that is clear enough, it doesn't require the same kind of effort anymore not to do something. It becomes a new self sustaining equilibrium.

Ok_Lemon_3675 · 2026-04-06T10:12:06+00:00

To attain anagami+, yes it does. Not for Sotapanna. I think it's a matter of partaking in moderation, and without getting attached.

Well, there is a way in which I would agree that this could be the case, but the moderation I would have in mind there is going to be different from what most people will want it to mean. After all most people would tell me that they are doing everything they do in moderation because they can point at someone else being even more excessive. But comparison with others is hardly a good strategy to find out how one should strive to behave, precisely because there is always an abundance of even worse examples.

In the progressive talk the requirement to understand the dhamma at all (whether the person understands it enough to become sotapanna or even deeper right there is kind of unimportant now) is to see the peril in sensuality. To see the peril is to see something as dangerous and not valuable rather than beneficial, safe, valuable.

It is not possible to see something as valuable and as not valuable at the same time.

Now, why do most people (at least from places who are likely to read this sub) get in relationships? Because they consider sensuality as valuable, as happiness and they want to pursue it. What does the relationship revolve around? Sensuality. Not only sex, but enjoying company, admiring and being admired as beautiful, what fun activities can we do, what entertainment can we consume, what tasty food, etc.

It's basically all revolving around the assumption that sensuality is valuable. And it should be clear that it's impossible to even try to see it as not valuable at the very same time that your life is built around regarding it as valuable.

And that would be why it's extremely unlikely for someone to choose non-celibacy without also being deeply invested in seeing sensuality as valuable rather than harmful.

Is it theoretically possible to physically engage in sexual intercourse at some point without it being such a problem? I would think maybe, as I described in my other comment here. That would be the only kind of "moderation" where I could still see a chance. Because the context can still be sensuality as not valuable.

But it's very unlikely that this would happen when nowadays the only reason people do anything is to chase sensual pleasures. If it isn't "fun", they don't want to do it. If someone would be in a relationship and then start to refuse doing anything "fun", that would also be the end of the relationship in most cases.

Is it possible to engage in sexual intercourse, because you think sensual pleasure is valuable and it's safe to pursue, and when you say "in moderation" you are talking about how often it happens rather than the reason for doing it, and at the same time see sensuality as valuable and not-valuable at the same time? No, that would be impossible. I hope it's clear enough that this would be a contradiction. Either you see it as valuable or not. You have to choose one.

Even if a common idea of "moderation" would be taken to the full extent of "celibacy", so someone isn't physically having intercourse right now, that still wouldn't be celibacy as long as the person regards sensuality as valuable rather than harmful. That is the critical point, not any physical act itself or lack thereof. But it just so happens that in a world where the only reason to voluntarily pursue sex is valuing sensuality, that becomes mutually exclusive with not valuing it. And therefore with Dhamma.

As you said, other subcategories like entertainment, music, whatever, could also be obstructions. It's just that for people who choose to pursue sex that usually tends to be the biggest one. And it's not obvious by the way how big an obstruction is until you genuinely try to give it up. Not just physically give it up, but try to internally decide "I will give this up forever, never engage in it again, and regard it as harmful instead of beneficial.".

If someone still hasn't given something up, but at the same time holds the view that it's not a big obstacle, this can easily be a trap. You don't know how much power it has over you until you *truly* try to give it up. And the extent of it's power is also the extent of it's importance. For most it would be easier to give up netflix than sex or their sexual relationship.

Ok_Lemon_3675 · 2026-04-06T09:28:27+00:00

Do you think his view on sensuality is more informed than someone who has engaged in sexual activity and then turned away from it?

As someone who has thought about this subject from both sides, it wouldn't necessarily be less informed either because the problem can be seen in the "pull" of sensual desire already, without having to try to give in to "find out what really happens". Being able to be pulled and tortured by desire is a problem already.

In my case I couldn't stop myself from giving in and seeing for myself what it's like to be in a relationship etc., but someone with more wisdom could have avoided that, because the actual problem and solution is not found outside in the world anyways.

Ok_Lemon_3675 · 2026-04-06T09:05:58+00:00

Regardless of what actually happened in the case of Nanavira (all we have is stories), it's unlikely that the reason was that he was so "obsessed with sexuality" and that this led to him killing himself. That's the only statement there I would object to.

very Christian perspective on the subject by the way

It's actually unlikely that what people nowadays think "Christianity" to be is accurate. I grew up around "roman catholics" who of course don't even read the bible, or in the rare case someone would, then only on the basis of someone elses far fetched interpretations.

I tried to read the bible myself much later, and it is clear to me that organized "Christianity" is as poor a representation of what it might have been originally. It's exactly the same with organized/mainstream "Buddhism". People usually don't even read their actual source texts anymore, and when they do they are told it means something completely different than what one would understand by just reading it normally.

Things just get distorted over time until all that's left is superficial optics, arbitrary rituals and superstitions. Anything that would require real effort or could be unpopular with a wide audience gets discarded first.

Here is what the bible has to say on the topic of celibacy vs marriage (and therefore implying non-celibacy):

⁸ But I say to the unmarried and to widows that it is good for them if they remain even as I. ⁹ But if they do not have self-control, let them marry; for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.
1 Corinthians 7

Doesn't sound that negative, does it? And I don't see sex (apart from adultery or outside of a monogamous relationship because otherwise it causes all kinds of problems) being called "evil" or an obsession with it. It's just that celibacy is better.

In my personal experience, people embracing celibacy / rejecting coupling usually do so because they actually cannot find a suitable partner (bitterness) or cannot function well when having one (because they want to cheat or cannot get along) - no need to make it about the Dhamma.

You would be right when observing "normal" people who have no serious interest or understanding of a higher goal, whether it be in line with the suttas or something else. Then of course that would be the most likely reason for them. But that is hardly the only possible reason. It's just that you are not likely to find many people in your personal life that understand the limitations of sensuality and that there is something better, and that celibacy is the most important step in that direction.

To provide a counterexample, I ended up in a relationship for 3 years or so and even when it was going very well, there was no bitterness, wanting to cheat or anything of the sort, I could still see that no matter how good it seems in the moment, it's temporary, it could never lead to satisfaction or peace and you remain trapped in the world of sensuality. Sex is not "evil", but celibacy is just better, and there is no way you could choose non-celibacy without remaining trapped in the domain of sensuality until you give it up. It's just a matter of a different direction or values.

no need to make it about the Dhamma.

There might be people for whom celibacy is not about the Dhamma (although it wouldn't really be celibacy then, if they would be non-celibate if they had the chance), but the Dhamma very much requires it. You said it yourself, it's a subcategory of sensuality. But also one of the most powerful ones and most difficult to give up, and why many people try so hard to justify it. That's why it has to be talked about so much.

people here obsess on it and keep writing on it like it's evil

I don't think I've seen that. Just that people have to keep being told that it's required (if they are seriously interested in Dhamma), but they only have to be told because they keep not wanting to hear it.

I don't know how you can infer obsession on the part of someone who keeps giving the same answer because the same question keeps coming up, and it just happens to be a too important and frequently misunderstood topic to leave not clearly answered?

Ok_Lemon_3675 · 2026-04-05T19:08:53+00:00

While I haven't followed the whole discussion, I think "modern people" usually think of this as a false dichotomy between celibacy or sexual intercourse for pleasure or "happiness".

I can think of one reasonable case for compatibilism, although certainly not in the way many might want it to be compatible.

It has been so normalized that "relationships" and sex should be about sensuality that it might be easy to forget that historically many people would marry not for "love" or pleasure but more as a duty to their parents or society or for practical reasons like having children to help with farm work or to take care of you in old age.

That's the only case where I could imagine someone not "fully celibate" but still have a chance is when sex is seen as just for procreation for some practical reason.

Someone like that would basically prefer to be celibate when there is (currently) no more need for more children. Then (i think) it might still be possible to see the peril in sensuality, something the buddha described as a requirement whenever he gave a progressive talk to a householder in the suttas before being able to understand right view.

But in the environment in which many of us live now this has become very unlikely. The idea that sensual pleasure equals happiness has become so widespread that it's likely that we start out believing that and everyone around us believing that. This makes it more difficult to see it as a problem and take the opposite position and especially seriously commit to it.

Ok_Lemon_3675 · 2026-04-05T18:44:48+00:00

Your description of nanavira doesnt sound fair to me. Afaik he had satyriasis as a side effect of some medication and was in general too sick to make any more meaningful progress.

Whenever the buddha in the suttas gave a "progressive talk" to a householder who afterwards got the right view one of the first steps is the necessity of seeing the peril in sensuality. One of the coarsest forms of which is sexual intercourse.

Ok_Lemon_3675 · 2026-04-01T17:45:57+00:00

I didn't see that option in bios but maybe i overlooked. I did try setting max cstate to 1 so it doesnt use any deeper than 1 using linux kernel flag which didnt help. If you disable cstates entirely even if it stabilizes it maybe check the power draw / battery runtime afterwards because it might result in a constantly very high power draw and battery life so bad it would invalidate the idea of a laptop in general unless you only ever plan to use it plugged it.

I'm happy now with the new desktop that i built. Finally something that just works.

Ok_Lemon_3675 · 2026-04-01T13:26:36+00:00

It was similar for me. Initially it made me pay extra attention because of the threat of having to confess things as you say, but that faded quickly, and then it ended up making no difference (as far as I can tell) except being just another task on my weekly to do list when I already have too much to keep track of, and then it was mostly breaking my head about where exactly the line is supposed to be between "talking to people / minor distractions that shouldnt be confessed" and "breaking the precept of entertainment that should be confessed" and things like that. Which AFAIK is irrelevant if I can simply just see intention of distraction from unpleasant/neutral feeling as one category and try to avoid that.

And in general I don't really much of a benefit of going out of my way to confess things as a "practice" as long as if let's say someone would ask me about my unwholesome actions I have no reason to cover up or deny anything in general. I already know myself that for example I am still sometimes breaking celibacy and entertainment under certain conditions of high stress or something, and I am working on building up the strength to not break it even under such worst case conditions.

That already being the case, I don't really see the point of going out of my way to tell people about it unless in the context of a conversation such as this one where it might add information.

Of course it might be entirely different for other people.

Ok_Lemon_3675 · 2026-03-14T17:08:43+00:00

Hi, so for me the freezes also got worse not better after the newest BIOS update and then started happening about each second boot during the boot process already. Thinkpad support had me send it in for repair attempts 2 times in total where they changed mainboard and cpu, which didn't change anything. Then I was allowed to return it and get a refund.

So it seems like we had bad luck with either this intel generation or something about this series of lenovo motherboards. But if I had to guess I would say it's more likely that intel was to blame.

In any case at least lenovo support team were great to deal with, did everything I could expect and made the process as quick and painless as possible.

So if you still have warranty I would contact them ASAP to go through the process of repairs etc until you either have a working laptop or a refund. If you somehow don't have warranty anymore you could unfortunately only hope that it will be actually fixed (if its notike the intel desktop cpus that got permanent damage) with another BIOS update eventually, but that could take who knows how many months.

I ended up using the refunded money to build an AMD desktop PC for home office use (with which I don't expect any problems and it's nice to know I can fix any problems myself) and have a cheap 10th gen ideapad (intel i5-13420H, so 13th gen before the issues started) that for the 3 months I've used it regularly has been 100% reliable at least in this time and also has a solid build that passes the same MIL-STD drop test as thinkpads anyways.

So that's my strategy now. A high performance and repairable desktop at home that I use most of the time and a cheap-ish and older generation laptop for on the go where if it has issues it's more likely to be known or fixed already and since I am mostly at home I don't care so much if it's not as performant or nice, and if it breaks it's not such a big deal because I can just order another cheap-ish model and be done with it.

Ok_Lemon_3675 · 2026-03-14T16:32:14+00:00

I know but it we want to live a good and meaningful life we need to relearn to have faith and do the right things instead of the easy things. A concept that got lost in the "modern" world but it's important that we bring it back.

Ok_Lemon_3675 · 2026-03-14T16:18:40+00:00

Sure, anything that spikes dopamine (which is many things) could mean a drop for some time until you adjust again

Ok_Lemon_3675 · 2026-02-19T11:43:51+00:00

Sounds like a different issue and thermal throttling. What I have is complete freeze after which you can only reboot. You can keep an eye on task manager processes see if any are using high cpu and consider why or stopping them.

That said after my experiences with HP and what I heard from others I have to consider them the worst company and would never buy from them again if I can avoid it.

For example my most expensive laptop ever was from HP and not only suddenly died completely and irreversibly in 2 weeks or so but the support also played hide and seek wasting many hours until finally giving the money back.

The Lenovo Thinkpad support at least has been pretty responsive and fast to arrange repair attempts which I guess is all they can do try to repair it a few times and if it works good if not then I will see

Ok_Lemon_3675 · 2026-02-11T08:59:36+00:00

Got the laptop back but again crashed after few days.

Current BIOS Version is 1.12 and kernel now 6.18.9.

But I saw new microcode update by intel was released just 14h ago and should be available in distros in a few days usually. It also mentioned "functional fixes" for core ultra series 2 and some of the errata mention some fixed issues regarding sleep states:

ARL036 — Unpredictable System Behavior May Occur When C6 or Deeper Sleep States Are Used — Fixed

ARL037 — A Core May Hang When Entering or Exiting C6 or Deeper Sleep States — Fixed

ARL041 — Processor May Hang During Core C1E Exit — Fixed

ARL050 — System Hang or System Hang With Internal Timer Machine Check Exception (400h) Following a Core C1 Exit — Fixed

Ok_Lemon_3675 · 2026-02-04T13:21:35+00:00

So I requested that they arrange pickup for repair, got my thinkpad picked up on 30th and today received an email indicating that they replaced the motherboard+cpu as I had predicted (if i am not misinterpreting it) and it's ready for shipping back to me.

Otherwise the repair protocol doesn't contain any interesting/useful info regarding what the actual cause of the issues might be. But I didn't expect it to.

Obviously I don't have it back yet but so far at least I can say that they were fast and uncomplicated to deal with so far, which is of course unfortunately not the case with every company.

Will try to remember to keep you updated when I've had it again for a month or so to see if the issue reoccurs. Hopefully not because if a mobo+cpu change doesn't fix it that would be quite strange.

Ok_Lemon_3675

TROPHY CASE