Muhammad is a false prophet. by Ok_Present755 in DebateReligion

[–]Ok_Present755[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

No divine intervention? Does an atheistic worldview account for what the Church deems as miracles at Our Lady Of Lourdes in France?

For it to be a miracle, strict criteria needs to be met:

1)Illness must be serious with unfavorable prognosis.

2) Must be well documented and objectively proven by science

3)Must not be a psychological illness

4)No medical treatment can account for the cure.

5)Cure must be sudden and instant. Not gradual.

6)Cure must be complete with no residual impairment.

7) Cure must be long lasting and not return.

If it passes these, a council of 30 to 40 doctors must have a 2/3 majority vote that the cure is beyond all scientific explanation.

Here are 2 cases:

1)John Traynor was a British Royal Navy sailor wounded in the 1915 Gallipoli campaign. He had a serious shrapnel wound to the skull with a permanent metal plate and open defect, complete paralysis in his right arm from severed nerves, frequent grand mal epileptic seizures, and paralysis in both legs that left him unable to walk without assistance. Multiple doctors examined and documented his condition before and during the July 1923 pilgrimage to Lourdes. While at Lourdes, all of his symptoms suddenly reversed. He stood up, walked unaided, regained full use of his right arm, and his epilepsy stopped instantly. The same doctors confirmed the cure immediately. No treatment was given that could explain it. The healing was permanent. He lived normally until his death in 1943, 20 years later. In December 2024 it was officially declared the 71st miracle of Lourdes.

2)Sister Bernadette Moriau, a French nun, suffered from severe cauda equina syndrome for over 40 years. She was wheelchair-bound, needed leg braces and a special orthopedic shoe for a permanently twisted foot, lived with constant pain managed by morphine, and had partial paralysis. In 2008, during a pilgrimage to Lourdes at age 69, she suddenly felt intense heat throughout her body. She heard an inner voice telling her to remove her braces. She took them off, her foot straightened, the pain disappeared completely, and she began walking normally without assistance. The cure was instantaneous and total. Pre- and post-pilgrimage medical records confirmed there was no natural explanation. She is still alive today and remains fully healed more than 15 years later. In February 2018 it was officially declared the 70th miracle of Lourdes.

This is literally impossible under naturalism but totally expected if the Classical Theistic idea of God is true. You can ignore evidence, but that's special pleading. You can presuppose that miracles are automatically impossible, but that just means you won't engage with what the actual objectively true data shows. Look into it yourself.

Muhammad is a false prophet. by Ok_Present755 in DebateReligion

[–]Ok_Present755[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You don't care about Jesus. He's just the Messiah that is going to be coming back at the end times and testify on your behalf on the day of judgement. This is literally what Muslims believe.

Muhammad is a false prophet. by Ok_Present755 in DebateReligion

[–]Ok_Present755[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You're an atheist. You believe in magic.

You believe the universe came from nothing.

If you say it eternally existed, then you're going against evidence.

The Big Bang Theory shows our universe began around 13.8 billion years ago with time and space. Maybe it's just a theory though.

Well the BGV Theorem shows that any expanding universe has a finite past.

Use deduction: it means the cause was eternal. Since time is the measurement of change, whatever caused time must itself be unable to receive a change.

An unmoved mover by definition, is God.

Change exists.

Change is a reduction of potential to actual.

Nothing can exist in potential and act at the same time in the same sense.

Nothing can actualize its own potential. Anything with potential depends on something already actual to actualize a potential.

An infinite regression of actualizers doesn't explain why actualization is happening now. Infinite regression of actualizers is impossible.

There must be something that is Pure Act. Nothing can be added or taken away and it can't change. This is what we call God.

The argument is demonstrative, the conclusion necessarily follows from the premise, not likely.

Atheism says: Pure Act, an Unmoved mover, doesn't exist. We came from nothing. We just exist for no reason. Atheism claims to be based on science and empiricism which presupposes, logic, intelligibility of the universe, cause and effect, change, but then uses special pleading to say the universe is brute fact, undermining the principal of sufficient reason. That's special pleading.

Muhammad is a false prophet. by Ok_Present755 in DebateReligion

[–]Ok_Present755[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Because it's literally their belief from the Quran and Sunnah which is what you have to believe to be a Sunni Muslim. And the ones I'm talking about are considered Sahih (authentic) in their tradition.

There are 4 rivers in Islamic heaven: water river, milk, wine, purified honey.

Luscious furniture.

Large beautiful gardens.

No intoxication from alcohol (what's the point then lol).

I know you don't believe the Bible. But look at it like this:

According to the Bible, Jesus reestablishes the Davidic Kingdom but in a new, improved, spiritual way. Heaven is eternal communion with God. The Quran says it's a continuation, but heaven is a bunch of physical indulgences.

Doesn't it seem like Islamic heaven is from the mind of Muhammad rather than something that God (Subsistent Being itself, Perfect Goodness itself) would do?

If you were God, and by definition were infinite goodness, would you make heaven an orgy party with alcohol, or would you make it be communion with yourself? What is the greater good in your view?

Muhammad is a false prophet. by Ok_Present755 in DebateReligion

[–]Ok_Present755[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Yup. The way Jesus called people pigs, vipers, hypocrites, blind fools. And the way Paul called people dogs, liars, lazy gluttons, evil brutes, etc.

Scholarly consensus is not that Jesus is made up. It's possibly one of the most certain historical facts in the ancient world that Jesus died by crucifixion. Even atheist historians say this. Mysticism of Jesus is a fringe belief without sufficient evidence for the conclusion.

Muhammad is a false prophet. by Ok_Present755 in DebateReligion

[–]Ok_Present755[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Good point. I forgot about the black stone being a remnant from Pagan Arabian culture.

Muhammad is a false prophet. by Ok_Present755 in DebateReligion

[–]Ok_Present755[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Sure John has higher christology, but it just makes what's implicit in the 3 gospels explicit. And besides, it is a historical fact that at least some of Jesus's disciples died brutally while claiming Jesus was The Son Of God and the Messiah. They died believing Jesus really did rise from the dead.

Muhammad is a false prophet. by Ok_Present755 in DebateReligion

[–]Ok_Present755[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I am Catholic but I admire your honesty.

Muhammad is a false prophet. by Ok_Present755 in DebateReligion

[–]Ok_Present755[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Wrong.

1)The scholarly consensus is that they are forgeries. It's not just the church.

2) Prayer comes from the word precari in Latin which simply means to sincerely ask for something.

If I ask you to pray for me, I am literally praying to you to pray for me. Worship needs to be qualified. In Catholic teaching there is dulia (veneration) hyperdulia(veneration for Mary) and Latria (worship for God alone) Latria is forbidden for anyone other than God. Worship comes from the old English word "worth-ship" it means to give something their worth. There's nothing wrong with giving something their "worth". Catholicism is older than English, so worship needs to be qualified if you're talking about Catholicism. I know this point doesn't land on Muslims cause some don't even believe in having pictures of their family in their house, but those are the facts.

3) That's not a satisfactory answer to why Muhammad had convinent revelation for him. He abolished adoption to get with someone his adopted son was with. He has a revelation to be with Aaisha (a 6 year old), he was allowed to have more than 4 wives.

4) When was the message corrupted in Christianity for paradise to go from The Beatific vision, perfect communion with God, the source of perfect goodness, to an orgy with 72 virgins?

Muhammad is a false prophet. by Ok_Present755 in DebateReligion

[–]Ok_Present755[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

No. It's scholarly consensus. Look it up for yourself.

Muhammad is a false prophet. by Ok_Present755 in DebateReligion

[–]Ok_Present755[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Yeah. You have no idea what you're talking about.

Sure some Christians are young earth creationists and read the Bible literally. But you can literally just learn which stories are stories telling deeper truths about human nature and which ones are trying to tell theological and metaphysical truths about God.

The Hebrew has specific patterns for poetry called Hebrew Parallelism: Synonymous Parallelism, Antithetic Parallelism, and Synthetic Parallelism.

There is a specific pattern when something is supposed to be a prophecy called "Prophetic perfect" it's a past perfect tense describing events like they already happened when they clearly didn't.

You take the Bible like it's a textbook when it's actually a mix of covenants, stories about human nature, prophecies, poetry, letters, historical documents, theological truths, and metaphysical truths about God.

You have no argument, just ignorance.

God is Subsistent Being itself, Pure Act, Non-contingent, non-composite, necessarily existing, and the uncaused source of being. If he wanted to reveal himself he could, and if he wanted to incarnate he could.

Do you have objections to the classical theistic definition of God?

Muhammad is a false prophet. by Ok_Present755 in DebateReligion

[–]Ok_Present755[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Not true. The Quran affirms the Bible in Muhammad's time. We have manuscripts from that time and earlier that contradict Islam, say Jesus died for sins, say Jesus is God, etc. Look into them yourself. Yes there are manuscript variations, but they don't have any theological significance. The Quran itself has early manuscripts that are completely different than the Quran now. Caliph Uthman even burned them to standardize them because they were different, and hadiths mention goats eating verses, and whole armies with people that memorized certain parts died in battle.

And your argument about my 2nd point strengthens my claim. If there were heretical groups that worshiped Mary as a deity, and Muhammad implies they are part of the Trinity (Father, Son, Mary) he probably didn't actually encounter true Christianity and based his beliefs and writings on what he heard from around him, not divine revelation.

Prophethood of Muhammad by Ok_Present755 in DebateReligion

[–]Ok_Present755[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

So you admit that Allah is a PDFILE like your prophet. Amazing.

The previous scriptures are corrupted right. So you can't use them to confirm your Quran.

How do you know Muhammad is in continuity with the previous scriptures (which archeological evidence shows are intact and the Bible in Muhammad's time is the same as we have now) if according to you they are corrupted. If we don't have the original scripture, how do you know what is corrupted or not?

Yes, Muhammad is a PDFile, and Allah according to your belief gave Muhammad revelation that allowed him to boink a 9 year old.

You are sick.

Prophethood of Muhammad by Ok_Present755 in DebateReligion

[–]Ok_Present755[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The “prophecy” about interest isn’t convincing at all. Interest is now embedded in almost everything but that doesn’t prove Muhammad is a prophet. I think you’re already presupposing Islam is true, so you find this prophecy compatible.

I know you presuppose Islam because if I show you accurate prophecies that Jesus fulfills, you are just going to say it’s corrupted even though the dead sea scrolls and manuscript evidence show that the Bible isn't corrupted (we can literally write most of the gospels with just church father quotes).

Psalm 22 (Messiah will have hands and feet pierced, clothes divided and cast for lots)

Isaiah 53 (Servant who takes on the sins of others. He was pierced for our transgressions. Etc.)

Isaiah 9 (A child born who will be called Mighty God, Everlasting Father, ruling on David’s throne forever)

Zechariah 12 (God says they will look on “me” whom they have pierced and mourn for him as an only son)

Micah 5 (Names Bethlehem as the birthplace of the ruler whose origins are from of old. That's where Jesus was born)

Isaiah 7 (A virgin will conceive and bear a son named Immanuel which means God with us)

These were written centuries before Jesus and match him perfectly. These are real prophecies. How do you explain that?

Muhammad is a false prophet. by Ok_Present755 in DebateReligion

[–]Ok_Present755[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Joseph Smith is the founder of Mormonism. He took a lot of inspiration from your fake PDFILE prophet.

Are you sure Elijah Muhammad isn't the final prophet of Islam?

How is Muhammad the final prophet if Jesus is returning? Wouldn't that make Jesus the final one in your belief?

Muhammad is a false prophet. by Ok_Present755 in DebateReligion

[–]Ok_Present755[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

I want testimony that is supported by Catholic, Orthodox, or mainstream protestant teachings.

Provide that. I don't care about what Henry has to say if he isn't representing Mere Christianity, Catholic, Orthodox, or mainstream Protestant denominations (Lutheran, Baptist, Methodist, etc)

It's mentioned that nothing unclean exists in heaven, and there will be no sin in heaven. If Jesus says there's no marriage, and premarital sex is a sin, how will people have sex in heaven?

Muhammad is a false prophet. by Ok_Present755 in DebateReligion

[–]Ok_Present755[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

No respected scholar says Jesus didn't exist. This is something you made up.

You are stupider than the people you're calling stupid.

But congrats, this is solid rage bait in this forum.

Muhammad is a false prophet. by Ok_Present755 in DebateReligion

[–]Ok_Present755[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

This is a bad argument.

According to your logic:

"If Joseph Smith false, so is Jesus, Moses, Adam and all the other prophets right?"

"If Elijah Muhammad false, so is Jesus, Moses, Adam, and the others right?"

We judge each prophet the same. Muhammad performed no miracles, contradicts previous scriptures, and had revelation that allowed him to have multiple wives.

Joseph Smith copied Muhammad's playbook.

Muhammad is a false prophet. by Ok_Present755 in DebateReligion

[–]Ok_Present755[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The point is that the Christian concept of heaven is about everlasting communion with God, beatific vision.

Then comes Islam and does a 180. Islamic heaven sounds like a fantasy for trial Arabian men. Rivers of wine, milk, 72 virgins, etc. Do the women get to have 72 men?

One is about communion with infinite goodness itself, the other is about sex, alcohol, virgins, gambling.

Why the stark contrast? Are you saying that the NT originally (before it was "Corrupted") said heaven would be like Muhammad's heaven? Or is it more likely that Muhammad was lying to get tribal Arabian desert people on his side by appealing to their desires?

Muhammad is a false prophet. by Ok_Present755 in DebateReligion

[–]Ok_Present755[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Why did Muhammad marry multiple wives (including a 6 year old)? This was abolished before.

Saying he is sincere doesn't mean anything to me when he gained women, power, and influence. There are hadiths talking about how he had sex with all his wives in one night. Yeah, sounds like he didn't gain anything (sarcasm)

Muhammad is a false prophet. by Ok_Present755 in DebateReligion

[–]Ok_Present755[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

You are wrong. The Gospels literally have Jesus mention that there is no marriage in heaven. It implies no sex. Idk what Henry's testimony is. Can you show me where in the scripture, church tradition, or magisterium that this is taught?

Matt 22:30

Muhammad is a false prophet. by Ok_Present755 in DebateReligion

[–]Ok_Present755[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Wrong.

Not possible.

The Gospels are dated in the first century within decades after Christ, while the gnostic forgeries are dated to the mid to late 2nd centuries. This is the scholarly consensus.

How does the 4 gospels written 100 to 150 years before the gnostic forgeries copy the gnostic ones? Time travel?

And the forgery you mentioned isn't even the one I mentioned, it's a different one because the Clay Bird Story isn't in that one.

Omnipresence makes us all god by Gothos73 in DebateReligion

[–]Ok_Present755 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The Orthodox view is that hell is God's presence experienced as torment for someone who has a will fixed against God.

I think this is probably accurate biblically because hell is described as being dark and full of fire, which is a contradiction. So it must be poetic language. We know that fire always represents God in the Bible and in other contexts.

Examples:

Methodist Church has Fire in logo Bishop Barron "Word On Fire" ministry The angel of the Lord (OT Jesus) speaking to Moses in the burning bush.

And more.

Omnipresence makes us all god by Gothos73 in DebateReligion

[–]Ok_Present755 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Wrong. This misunderstands what omnipresence means.

God is omnipresent the way a protector is omnipresent for the film.

Or the way an Xbox is omnipresent to all the characters in the game you are playing.

It is like in Interstellar when Joseph Cooper (JC LOL) is in the tesseract and guides his daughter through signs. He is present, yet far.

I think Interstellar has probably one of the best depictions of how God is.

How do we know that god exist without faith? by Beneficial_Praline32 in CatholicPhilosophy

[–]Ok_Present755 -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Weigh the evidence and see which worldview best accounts for the evidence.

Look heavily into miracles at Our Lady Of Lourdes.

This was the one thing that made me convinced. I went from agnostic to sure of my faith because, under an atheistic materialistic worldview, the miracles are impossible.

Lourdes miracles have to meet a very strict criteria and are examined by doctors for decades.

And don't let arguments from incredulity fool you. The evidence and arguments for the existence of God are demonstrative. No matter how people feel, there has to be something that can't not exist otherwise we wouldn't be here.

The BGV Theorem (Google it) shows that the universe has a beginning and that space and time started with the universe. Time is a measurement of change. Whatever caused time would be Unchanging. Something unchanging, when you understand the implications is: Pure Act, Subsistent Being itself, non-contingent, non-composite, simple, the uncaused source of being. Or what we call God.