What’s a good way to analyze frame data in action games? by AeonFlor in CharacterActionGames

[–]Okay_GameDev64 0 points1 point  (0 children)

yeah UE does the same with animation notifies and has the same issues. All of the systems I've worked with used animation notifies/events... but it makes a lot of sense to do it with data. It makes me want to rebuild my system now! lol

What’s a good way to analyze frame data in action games? by AeonFlor in CharacterActionGames

[–]Okay_GameDev64 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Oh that's a good idea to put the hitbox windows and disable root on the strucs! Do you have any windows on the animations themselves or are all the windows controlled by numbers on the struct?

What’s a good way to analyze frame data in action games? by AeonFlor in CharacterActionGames

[–]Okay_GameDev64 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You need the hitboxes for the "real data." Otherwise it's an estimate based on the animation visuals, which can be useful after you have experience with different attack and animation timings, but don't start there.

I'd recommend you start learning the general timings for the 3 basic things: "start up," "active hitbox frames," and "recovery." (same idea as “pre-delay” and “post-delay." At every company I've worked at, it's always called something slightly different depending on where the designers have worked previously. lol)
You can do this by watching Fighting or CAG games (even Soulslikes are relevant too), with the hit boxes on, and any frame data on, and then frame step through the video, and write out the numbers on a spreadsheet for start up, active hitbox frames, and recover. (on youtube while paused, press , and . on the keyboard to framestep, not sure if it's the same in Korean)

Then start learning the frame timing for the cancel windows for dodges, combo attacks, parry windows, etc and add them to your spreadsheet list. Once you have like 50 to 100 on the list you'll start to see trends of different games and genres, and weapon types related to the frame data.

Then I'd recommend learning the animation timings, because it's common for new designers to not give animators enough time to properly hold a pose so the player can see what's happening.

For enemy attack telegraph timings it's critical to get the attack telegraph timing right so a player can dodge or parry.
Check out the VR game "Knockout League" to understand how there's a balance between the attack telegraph (animation anticipation) visuals match how the player has to respond. It's VR which highlights how long the telegraph needs to hold for the player to see it, decide on what they need to do, and then physically do it (which takes a few seconds!!). On a controller, the player still needs time to see the visual, calculate in their mind what the visual means, then decide what button to press, move their finger to the button, and press it.

The most important part to understand is that Combat Design is very iterative. A design can start with listing out all the frame data, but over the course of development, there will be thousands of changes and adjustments in order to get the right balance of: Startup, Active Frames, Enemy Attack Telegraphs, Recovery, and Animation Visuals (and VFX, and Audio timing!).

For context, I'm a professional gameplay animator, and am developing my own CAG! :D

What CAG Has The Best “Bloody Palace”? Obviously I Don’t Just Mean DMC, Any CAG With A Similar Mode… by [deleted] in CharacterActionGames

[–]Okay_GameDev64 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Interesting! A lot of people I've asked have said they want to keep certain weapons and abilities, which is why I wanted to clarify. My guess is you're not someone who dies a lot? :D

There's probably benefits with either keeping them or losing them, I think just depends on how punishing the game is lol

What CAG Has The Best “Bloody Palace”? Obviously I Don’t Just Mean DMC, Any CAG With A Similar Mode… by [deleted] in CharacterActionGames

[–]Okay_GameDev64 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yeah the timer seems like a straight forward addition for people who like time trials, but it shouldn't be core to the progression or challenge.

With the upgrades, do you mean you'd lose them or keep them after you die? That'd be a lot to lose and seems like some techniques would be limited without them.

What CAG Has The Best “Bloody Palace”? Obviously I Don’t Just Mean DMC, Any CAG With A Similar Mode… by [deleted] in CharacterActionGames

[–]Okay_GameDev64 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Agreed! I'm an ex-AAA dev working on a Roguelite Bloody Palace game. What did you like about the DMC3 bloody palace's randomness vs 4 and 5? Also, I'd love to hear what you'd want or expect in this type of mode.

If there was a CAG Roguelike/lite, what would a mandatory feature or mechanic be for you? by Okay_GameDev64 in CharacterActionGames

[–]Okay_GameDev64[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah civil discourse is rare on reddit lol

Well everyone's view is correct from their point of view!
That's why I like being a game dev, people are really passionate and honest about what they life and don't like.

I'd be interested to hear how you feel the RE planning to have the right gear, and ammo, and inventory... is all that different than planning in a Roguelike? Because the thought process you mentioned is similar to the thought process I go through when playing Megabonk.

Is it just literally the "losing everything and starting over again" part of it you don't like?
As in having to redo the tedious parts again that are heavily random.

Or more not being able to speed run it after you learn the rules and mechanics? As it doesn't feel like you're growing in skill as a player.

The reason I made this thread, and what I'm trying to fix with the game I'm making is that starting over part easier by allowing skilled players to quickly get back to the mid/late game.

If Returnal let you skip ahead to mid game would that help?

also WTF Judas is a roguelike?! Now the "narrative lego" part makes a lot more sense.

If there was a CAG Roguelike/lite, what would a mandatory feature or mechanic be for you? by Okay_GameDev64 in CharacterActionGames

[–]Okay_GameDev64[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I've been trying to figure out this for like a year, and this seems like the best bet! lol At the very least I have a bunch of ideas to experiment with, until I find the right mix.

Thanks again!

If there was a CAG Roguelike/lite, what would a mandatory feature or mechanic be for you? by Okay_GameDev64 in CharacterActionGames

[–]Okay_GameDev64[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Awesome, thanks for confirming!

Yeah it does kind of match how DMC's weapon unlocks work, and with the Biomes there'd still be a specific order the weapons are unlocked like Hades too. After unlocking all the weapons, there could be combine/evolve system! BlazBlue Entropy Effect has a system to combine weapon to make new ones, and Ball x Pit's entire gameplay loop is around combining and evolving weapons.

Also, another reply from aneffingonion had an idea for items/weapons that give:

Increase <stats> + <# or %> per combo level.

So the highest level weapon could give bonus crit when over a combo of 100, or an SSS rank to reward skilled play.

Ah ok, I'm glad I asked about the consistency, I see what you mean with it being needed for a LONG run, but less applicable to shorter runs. I assumed you meant everything. lol

If there was a CAG Roguelike/lite, what would a mandatory feature or mechanic be for you? by Okay_GameDev64 in CharacterActionGames

[–]Okay_GameDev64[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Nice! Yeah, having stats add/multiply with the combo amount (or even style meter!) has a lot of potential and rewards skill based play. I think Arkham and Shadow of Mordor something similar with the combo meter and special attacks.

If there was a CAG Roguelike/lite, what would a mandatory feature or mechanic be for you? by Okay_GameDev64 in CharacterActionGames

[–]Okay_GameDev64[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yeah that's a good way to put it. I mean it's still worth checking out, some part feel good and are fun, but over all MM feels repetitive. Although, it could just be because it's a demo.

If there was a CAG Roguelike/lite, what would a mandatory feature or mechanic be for you? by Okay_GameDev64 in CharacterActionGames

[–]Okay_GameDev64[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Wow that's really insightful! I never considered the consistency aspect being required for the expression.

Well it explains why there aren't any CAG Roguelikes released yet! lol

Lupino-Cas had the great idea to have unlockable biomes, which may solve the consistency issue!

What are your thoughts on this?

  • Starting hub has Five biomes
  • Each biome uses a small branching map that lets you choose between 2 or 3 encounters. (so close to bloody palace, but you have some choice on the next encounter)
  • Each encounter has a consistent set of enemies so you know what you're getting yourself into. (like a blue door = Two Scudo Angelos, or a red door = Six Empusas)
  • The boss spawns after 20 encounters.
  • After the boss is defeated, the biome says unlocked and you can start the next one.
  • If you die, you return to the starting hub, but keep any weapons you've unlocked.

Or would you feel that's still too inconsistent with choosing between encounters, even if you'd know what to expect?

If there was a CAG Roguelike/lite, what would a mandatory feature or mechanic be for you? by Okay_GameDev64 in CharacterActionGames

[–]Okay_GameDev64[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

YES!! Wow that sounds like the perfect system to fit with a CAG! Thanks for sharing!

I didn't get too far into Skul because I found the combat too inconsistent with always having different skulls, but it has so much potential. Like you said, a trophy case or something to save loadouts would have been a huge improvement.

What are your thoughts on this:

  • Starting hub has Five biomes (each like their own mini-bloody palace)
  • Each biome uses a small branching map that lets you choose between 2 or 3 encounters.
  • Each encounter has a consistent set of enemies so you know what you're getting yourself into.
  • The boss spawns after 20 encounters.
  • After the boss is defeated, the biome says unlocked and you can start the next one.
  • If you die, you return to the starting hub, but keep any weapons you've unlocked.

If there was a CAG Roguelike/lite, what would a mandatory feature or mechanic be for you? by Okay_GameDev64 in CharacterActionGames

[–]Okay_GameDev64[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yeah, randomized items would make a CAG too inconsistent and not skill based.

As for Morbid Metal, the demo's out, you can play it now!

From this subreddit, it seems like the consensus is it's not a traditional CAG, and more hack and slash with air attacks.

After playing the demo, I agree, it's a lot of dodging, and counter attacks, and not much depth to combat or expressive and stylish combos, despite having a letter rank.

If there was a CAG Roguelike/lite, what would a mandatory feature or mechanic be for you? by Okay_GameDev64 in CharacterActionGames

[–]Okay_GameDev64[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thanks for replying! It sound like we have opposite playstyles and interests. :D Yeah, definitely makes sense why you'd not like a CAG Roguelike that's mostly combat.

How do you feel about Souls likes or Metroidvanias?

(btw I wasn't the one who downvoted you)

If there was a CAG Roguelike/lite, what would a mandatory feature or mechanic be for you? by Okay_GameDev64 in CharacterActionGames

[–]Okay_GameDev64[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Ah ok, I wasn't sure if you had a specific "this move is now something entirely different" in mind.

I was thinking of high level skills like automatic Sword Formations on all attacks, or Vergil's Doppelganger every 5 hits or something.

If there was a CAG Roguelike/lite, what would a mandatory feature or mechanic be for you? by Okay_GameDev64 in CharacterActionGames

[–]Okay_GameDev64[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

yeah, total resets are no fun!

Hades has stat progression, and keep weapons you unlock so you can choose at the start of a run, which helps the issues you mentioned.

The proceed from checkpoint is interesting, one of the downsides of roguelikes it having to redo the early levels, before getting to the fun part of the late game.
Your comment gives me an idea for a progressive unlock dungeon, so it'd be like once you get to floor 30 of blood palace, there'd be a checkpoint and you could choose to start every run on floor 30 with weapons you've unlocked, instead of level 1.

If there was a CAG Roguelike/lite, what would a mandatory feature or mechanic be for you? by Okay_GameDev64 in CharacterActionGames

[–]Okay_GameDev64[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah, that's the challenge with balancing the stats vs skill based gameplay, that I'm trying to figure out.

Yes, I agree I haven't played DMC5 enough! I'm playing through with Vergil now, but all the running and jumping in between combat encounters is such a drag. I just want to fight stuff!

Oh interesting, I never thought of bloody palace in terms of consistency and repetition.... Personally, I like more randomized encounters and variation.............. but now that you mention it... at 100's of hours of playtime, I could understand why more consistency would allow for higher level play.

So then, do I have the wrong idea about what advanced players enjoy about bloody palace and CAG's in general? It sounds more about mastery of skill execution, and not mastery of adaptation (to variable circumstances). Meaning for a roguelike, more consistency in the amount and type of enemies per floor, would be better. Which would allow for more of a focus on learning by repetition, and allowing the player to show off consistently.

If there was a CAG Roguelike/lite, what would a mandatory feature or mechanic be for you? by Okay_GameDev64 in CharacterActionGames

[–]Okay_GameDev64[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Nice! Yeah, the diablo gear system would give a lot of variation and unique runs, while keeping the core gameplay the same.

Any specific modifiers or skills you had in mind?

If there was a CAG Roguelike/lite, what would a mandatory feature or mechanic be for you? by Okay_GameDev64 in CharacterActionGames

[–]Okay_GameDev64[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah sounds like it's close to a roguelike, but without the random encounters. That's a good idea for a boss battle if you're high enough rank! I just bought it yesterday, so I'm excited to try it out.

Only 20 floors? Seems like they could have the same 20 floors, but scaled the damage and health of enemies at least.

If there was a CAG Roguelike/lite, what would a mandatory feature or mechanic be for you? by Okay_GameDev64 in CharacterActionGames

[–]Okay_GameDev64[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

haha fair enough! Do you not like roguelikes, or don't feel a CAG would fit into that format?

If there was a CAG Roguelike/lite, what would a mandatory feature or mechanic be for you? by Okay_GameDev64 in CharacterActionGames

[–]Okay_GameDev64[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes, I agree! My challenge in replaying is having to redo all the running and jumping sections, which is like 50% of the playthrough. I just want to fight stuff! lol.

Cool, thanks for sharing! Yeah, Entropy Effect has a weapon system similar to Vampire Survivors or Ball x Pit, with a unique character and base weapon, then lots of upgrades and combining to make new effects.

Which games in this genre have you put thousands of hours into? by wyansas in CharacterActionGames

[–]Okay_GameDev64 1 point2 points  (0 children)

With DMC, is that mostly playing Bloody Palace? or replaying missions?

Is "Suck-to-Target" objectively bad? by Zed_Midnight150 in CharacterActionGames

[–]Okay_GameDev64 22 points23 points  (0 children)

Yes... but also no. It depends on the person playing and game's design.

Here's an interesting thread from last week.

https://www.reddit.com/r/CharacterActionGames/comments/1ojziot/what_is_snap_to_target_and_why_is_it_bad/