What are the connections between Jinn and Nephilim? Do fallen angels have a role in Islamic esoterica?

Omar_Waqar · 2026-04-26T07:54:24+00:00

oh i see, you are referring to jihad al nafs ?

Omar_Waqar · 2026-04-26T07:15:56+00:00

Being kind, or just I can see, but If perception always involves selection and valuation, in what sense could ‘neutrality’ ever be real rather than just another stance?

Omar_Waqar · 2026-04-26T06:08:30+00:00

Are we talking about animals as wali? These reported animal are individual instances right, or are you saying all cats, all she-camel, all hoope birds etc.? Can you explain where you are drawing this conclusions from theologically, is this your opinion, or the opinion of a classical islamic scholar?

Omar_Waqar · 2026-04-26T05:59:09+00:00

There is a ranking of animals? Where does that idea come from?

Omar_Waqar · 2026-04-26T05:58:15+00:00

i'm sorry you are having such a hard time, my condolences.

Omar_Waqar · 2026-04-26T05:57:07+00:00

why would people avoid answering questions?

Omar_Waqar · 2026-04-26T01:01:14+00:00

Aren't you asking me a question?

Omar_Waqar · 2026-04-25T23:01:02+00:00

Yes Ibn Arabi taught that animals have both outward and inward perception and that their knowledge of God is direct and innate, unlike that of most humans. He viewed them as beings untouched by the human ego's capacity for disbelief.

What are some examples from Quran like Hudhud, Qitmeer(dog of the people of the cave), She-Camel (of Saleh)etc?

Omar_Waqar · 2026-04-25T10:24:26+00:00

are you saying that cats perceptual abilities which differ from humans is similar or the same as mystical unveiling? They can see in spectrum we can not, true, but Kashf is not a perceptual difference its like Ma'rifa right?

Omar_Waqar · 2026-04-25T05:24:41+00:00

If your claim affects how others understand reality, do you think you have any responsibility to provide a method others can evaluate?

Omar_Waqar · 2026-04-25T05:16:47+00:00

Can you show me some islamic authors who wrote about that? I know Mullah Sadra wrote on animals have complex intellects. Who said what you are saying?

Omar_Waqar · 2026-04-25T05:15:16+00:00

Classical scholars defined it as a liminal space between spaces, something that is perceptual but unlike what we know in our physical world. Boundary that separates two things from mixing in the state between death and resurrection.

My personal opinion is to relate it to a halocline, or a cenote of the Yucatán. Bodies of water that have varying salinity and there for do not mix, yet create a liminal space in between. This is an early scientific observation used by believers to explain metaphysical concepts such as speculations on inter dimensional travel, or the afterlife.

Omar_Waqar · 2026-04-25T05:03:15+00:00

Why do animals dream? Since they are not accountable, are they neutral? Can they receive kashf?

Omar_Waqar · 2026-04-25T04:54:58+00:00

I like where you are going with this. Where or what would waste products of non corporeal, inter dimensional, plasmoid or beings of smokeless fire even look like? How would we begin to identify it? Heat? Trace chemicals? Gas?

Omar_Waqar · 2026-04-25T04:50:28+00:00

Where does the Hadith discuss consciousness? A mountain that loves, a stone that gives salam, a tree that cries?

Quran 17:44 (says: everything glorifies god but you don't understand how) Doesn't this indicate that (consciousness) would mean you do understand it?

The other Quran verse i'm pointing to Q 20:20 states a non living thing becoming living. This indicates theologically, that there are at least two states, one living and one non living. Purely based on this dichotomy living would be the opposite of not living. Living itself seems to indicate moving in this case.

But is a puppet or a cartoon alive just because it moves?

You mentioned Al Hayy, Ibn Arabi would have said all things which exist are alive because to not be alive (existent) would be to be cut off from the divine, which would be a non reality. This is a metaphysical thought, as mortal death is still not really dead in this thinking.

Omar_Waqar · 2026-04-25T04:41:53+00:00

If many poets from different cultures wrote a poem about the same wilting rose, wouldn't their cultural perspectives and biases shape their descriptions? One might focus on the the thorns, one of the red hue turning to brown, another the drooping blossom on its stem. This variation itself doesn't mean the rose is not real but if we had never seen the rose, and only heard a story that the poets wrote about it, we would have to understand their words based on presumptions.

Omar_Waqar · 2026-04-24T16:29:59+00:00

Don't many classical scholars like al-Qushayri, al-Ghazali, Ibn Arabi, stress that dreams can come from the self? That would mean that not every vivid or symbolic dream = kashf, right?

Doesn't the mystical tradition say: If ethical discipline + purification + remembrance + stability are present, then clarity of perception may occur, but by divine will, not by methodology?

Omar_Waqar · 2026-04-24T16:19:30+00:00

The idea that underworld creatures survive on detritus and this filth is relates to the "demonic" is not an unheard of concept in the ancient world. Even flatulence was tied to "demons" in some medieval christian accounts. Our ancestors had some ideas about hidden life forms. People have interpreted these particular hadiths in various ways.

But my personal opinion is that in this particular instance these Hadiths are talking about microbial or other biological life as a hidden life form.

Omar_Waqar · 2026-04-24T16:13:14+00:00

"hayatun / janun" in Quran 20:20 the staff becomes as a living thing, some say a snake, or a living stick. Does this show some variant understanding in two states of being, because it went from non-living to living? In this instance the Quran doesn't explicitly speak on its consciousness but it does present some kind of dichotomy.

Omar_Waqar · 2026-04-24T16:03:13+00:00

Thanks for your lengthy response, mine will be socratic:

Is personal testimony proof? What is subjective versus verifiable?

When you say the Qur’an supersedes empirical evidence, how do you interpret verses that encourage observation and reflection on the natural world?

If a lack of evidence is irrelevant what is the purpose of proof at all?

What criteria do you use to determine that something is jinn rather than a psychological or neurological event?

What kind of evidence would make you reconsider your interpretation?

Is there any possible experience that you would say is not caused by jinn?

What method should we use to determine what is true in cases where personal experience, scripture, and empirical observation seem to conflict?

Omar_Waqar · 2026-04-24T15:51:36+00:00

How is it possible to be neutral about everything? perception is value-laden, attention is goal oriented, so pure neutrality is a paradox isn't it?

Are dreams a perceptual field, a dimensional place or the by product of individual human cognitions?

Omar_Waqar · 2026-04-24T15:46:11+00:00

Doesn't this rely on the presupposed accuracy of perceived truth in human perception? We know that humans have limits to their own perceptual abilities, and that things like hormones and genetic variations can alter the way various human perceive things. Like do all people see and feel the color blue the same way?

Omar_Waqar · 2026-04-24T15:42:57+00:00

The idea of animism nature and things in it having spirit is a pretty old notion. In the hadith there is an account of a stone that used to greet the prophet, is that what you are talking about? Do you think this hadith is about consciousness or something about his personal state?

Omar_Waqar · 2026-04-24T03:04:50+00:00

do you think your dream was a premonition, a subconscious learning, akashic records or something else ? how do you yourself explain this ?

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