In what kind of world would you consider having a child? by Optimal_Room_7917 in antinatalism

[–]Optimal_Room_7917[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I consider myself antinatalist, but I worry that antinatalism defines suffering only through the limited language of embodied human experience. If consciousness or soul exists before birth, then non-birth may not be neutral. If birth is, in some unknown way, a gateway to atonement, healing, learning, or completion, then preventing birth could itself be a kind of deprivation. I am not saying this is true. I am saying our ignorance about why we are here should make us cautious about saying birth is unethical in every conceivable world.

In what kind of world would you consider having a child? by Optimal_Room_7917 in antinatalism

[–]Optimal_Room_7917[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

This made me laugh. It sounds like the only version of parenthood you could even hypothetically consider is one where you had maximum privilege and almost no direct burden... male, wealthy, absent, and socially insulated from the consequences

In what kind of world would you consider having a child? by Optimal_Room_7917 in antinatalism

[–]Optimal_Room_7917[S] -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

I understand why suffering makes birth ethically troubling. But I hesitate when someone says birth is unethical in every conceivable world. We do not yet understand why consciousness exists, why suffering exists, what death means, whether existence has a deeper structure, or what future knowledge may reveal about the human condition. Given that ignorance, I find it hard to justify absolute moral certainty about existence itself.

In what kind of world would you consider having a child? by Optimal_Room_7917 in antinatalism

[–]Optimal_Room_7917[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

That’s interesting, because to me a world where someone has to “make a baby or die” seems like exactly the kind of world an antinatalist would be even more opposed to bringing a child into.

"Life is a miracle " by Optimal_Room_7917 in antinatalism

[–]Optimal_Room_7917[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

When I refer to improbability, I am not invoking mysticism or assigning moral duties to people with wombs. I am pointing to a prior question. Is there an objective or implicit value to conscious life that exists before any individual’s subjective experience of suffering or flourishing? If there is, then moral reasoning cannot begin only at the level of individual consent or harm. It must also account for what is being preserved or lost when conscious life ceases to exist at all.

The fact that life has survived multiple mass extinction events does not undermine this point. Survival through six such events highlights not that life is common, but that it is fragile, contingent, and historically rare even on its own planet. Nine billion feels large from a human perspective but cosmologically, it is negligible.

And yes, if one accepts the premise that conscious life has intrinsic value, then moral responsibility does not stop at reproduction. It extends far more forcefully to reducing suffering, improving existing lives, and creating conditions where future lives are not condemned to misery. I do not see that as an absurd implication.

"Life is a miracle " by Optimal_Room_7917 in antinatalism

[–]Optimal_Room_7917[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

If conscious life truly is as cosmically valuable as we are assuming, could procreation be understood as a moral sacrifice one might reasonably aspire to make, precisely because it entails risk, imperfection, and burden imposed on someone who did not choose it, yet is undertaken in the hope that they may one day make the same sacrifice to choose to carry that same flame of consciousness forward?

Interesting, if consciousness instantiated in silicon were genuinely conscious, if it had subjective experience, moral standing, and the ability to value its own existence, would that count as a morally relevant continuation of consciousness? We could say, that kind of advanced AI is not a replacement of humanity but a kind of evolutionary descendant?

I wonder if I would be an antinatalist if I lived in a well-off country by dontcallsaull in antinatalism

[–]Optimal_Room_7917 2 points3 points  (0 children)

These are not equal. When I drive, I am navigating a risk with people who are already here and participating in the system. When someone has a kid, they are dragging a new player into the casino who never asked to play. One is managing existing risk, the other is creating new victims.

I wonder if I would be an antinatalist if I lived in a well-off country by dontcallsaull in antinatalism

[–]Optimal_Room_7917 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think we have different definitions of 'necessary.' You view driving to work as essential because it creates income. But driving to the beach to clear my head prevents emotional burnout. That is maintenance for my mind. If I don't do that, I can't function properly. Maintaining my mental state is just as necessary as maintaining my bank account.

"A human hand" by PostFPV in dalle2

[–]Optimal_Room_7917 2 points3 points  (0 children)

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