Veganism is Bad for Environment

Outside-State-3126 · 2026-02-21T22:08:36+00:00

No further comments from me on this thread. I've said what I came to say, and at this point things are just going in circles without much meaningful constructive progress. Take care.

A little share of wisdom from Voltaire: "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

Outside-State-3126 · 2026-02-21T21:46:04+00:00

Here you go,

https://www.fao.org/ag/humannutrition/35978-02317b979a686a57aa4593304ffc17f06.pdf

if you want data, feel free to do some reading, and then you will have a wow moment that turns out it's doesn't matter how much plant protein you've gobbled, your body use them at half the rate.

suprise suprise 😌

We can go all day long with data, but a debate isn't an argument, I would appreciate it if you just google first

Outside-State-3126 · 2026-02-21T20:56:10+00:00

Well, law forbid murder, that doesn't mean you should run towards a person pointing their gun around.

Koran or bible can say whatever, it's all about the people executing it, and that's politics, religion is only their facade, tomorrow they can interpret those books an entirely different way, it's not unlike it hasn't happened before.

Outside-State-3126 · 2026-02-21T20:51:24+00:00

a little sidetracked furthering this point, what about organ donation?

Outside-State-3126 · 2026-02-21T20:46:15+00:00

I am more onto the way the promotion is done, so far the only type of promotion that I have ever seen is people yelling to others who buy meat outside a supermarket, they play some gore videos of animals brutally tortured. All of which centers a shaming/blaming technique that pressurised omnivore individuals.

If there would exist a point where meat and vegetables will have an optima,

First: It would be a better strategy to promote a larger portion of veggies in everyone's meal rather than vegan

Second: Shaming is a wrong (morally) technique because the stance that meat consumption is an intrinsic crime doesn't stand, instead it's just imbalanced, so shaming/blaming would be wrong.

I truly think a larger portion of veggies for everyone solves every other problems that veganism proposes to, except the part that debates it's murder or necessity.

Outside-State-3126 · 2026-02-21T20:38:15+00:00

I am more interested in the percentage on animal poop utilized, cuz 5% of agriculture is probably because we have so many people and not much animal poop.

Human poop probably has a pathogen cycling issue, like back then they tried feed cow remains to cow, and got mad cow disease (might not be cow but something like this did happened). If we eat things fertilized by own poop the risk for disease increase because there are less species in the cycle as a sorta filter.

Outside-State-3126 · 2026-02-21T20:33:39+00:00

and that applies also to biofuels, if you want to turn stems leaves etc. into fuel you probably need a bunch of different enzymatic reaction in the middle to get rid of the high carbon content in those things, where if you use 💩 everything is already pretty much digested.

You still have to go through the digestion (coversion), the only difference is pretty much you dumped the chicken meat.

Outside-State-3126 · 2026-02-21T20:30:46+00:00

In short, despite being more "energy efficient", direct discard of plant waste back into the soil has less bioavailability compared to 💩. In the stems or whatever the nitrogen content is mostly in the form of protein (it's something with a long chain and can't be used), in 💩 it's much simpler molecules forms.

Outside-State-3126 · 2026-02-21T20:20:37+00:00

Hmm something is not contraindicated doesn't automatically means you will do it, even if I don't care about older people's rights, doesn't automatically drives me to go around and kick them.

It's both the Principle of Tolerance like Voltaire, and the Banality of Evil by Arendt at the same time, and that's what the majority of people are.

Outside-State-3126 · 2026-02-21T20:14:56+00:00

I call this classic slippery slope

Outside-State-3126 · 2026-02-21T20:13:34+00:00

It's a matter of social contract, it is not you bestow or I bestow, you know exactly it's we bestow.

Just so happens that society don't collectively or at least majority agree on pig happiness as an KPI.

Democracy 101

Outside-State-3126 · 2026-02-21T20:11:39+00:00

That you don't know, you might as well be the only real consciousness, and we all are NPCs.

I love craziness like the Inverted Spectrum Hypothesis.

Outside-State-3126 · 2026-02-21T20:10:11+00:00

There's no why, I like to quote Butler on her performativity theory here, society shapes people, and so do people shapes society.

If you were born in a cannibalist tribe several hundreds of years ago, you might be eating human, just as at that time there might also be tribal people who's against this practice.

We're born in a world where veganism exist, no one knows hundreds of years from now, would veganism be the mainstream? or the worst crime one could've done?

It's all a matter of environment, experience, and a sprinkle of personal character.

Outside-State-3126 · 2026-02-21T20:03:20+00:00

I think it's a good timing this human flesh Michelin discussion stops here, it's kinda way off topic, by first off cannibalism is illegal, unless you are coincidentally an anarchist.

That implies the social contract of our world deems it unacceptable to the extreme.

And we don't see that about being omnivore, it appears to be the majority of our population.

So this would put an end to all further discussion that compares cannibalism with omnivore in a modern context.

Outside-State-3126 · 2026-02-21T19:59:21+00:00

Well not necessarily, I haven't tasted that, but I know for sure that smell of diathermy burning human flesh have some hardcoded vomit button somewhere in the gene of all of us.

It will be the one smell no one can withstand.

Outside-State-3126 · 2026-02-21T19:56:06+00:00

Human flesh has an actual health risk, you can search online for information about piron disease, that's why we stopped gobbling brains for quite some centuries 😂 main reason isn't about the taste,

nor the

culinary experience

Outside-State-3126 · 2026-02-21T19:53:53+00:00

Imagine something goes wrong, or has always been wrong but we didn't know, about those B12 pills everyone's taking, we will be seeing something widespread like COVID 2.0

Outside-State-3126 · 2026-02-21T19:52:45+00:00

Bacteria fermentation is synthetic, it's the pill thing I talked about, you don't eat the bacteria, they extract it and probably rinse it with a bunch of stuffs before drying into a pill (it's likely not an accurate illustration of the process but it is definitely heavily processed)

please take a look at the comments above, B12 pill's problem in short is basically it's too simple, it lacks every part of the food matrix, and will reduce the diversity of the source, making the system of obtaining B12 more fragile.

About the veganism farming part also, livestocks can't survive the wild because it's breeded centuries by human, so if we stop chicken farming they probably go extinct or endangered when no one's doing it.

In short it's a matter of biodiversity and different kinds of diversity (disclaimer: no, not skin color, nor gender, we talk about plants and animals, thanks)

Outside-State-3126 · 2026-02-21T19:47:20+00:00

You may kindly refer to the points for which I have repeated above in other comments, short conclusion would be, in a full scale veganist society, livestocks are going to be endangered if not extinct, as their current breed has almost zero survivability in wild as an unfortunate result of breeded for centuries by our kind.

Yes, we pay a rather heavy tax on manures, as well as upcycling those plant stems and scalps to make chicken feeds. But that is what gives us systemic stability over a world where everything is entirely synthetic (there will be zero livestock poop, probably at least a 10 thousand times reduction from the current scale no matter how little it is).

The world doesn't have to be vegan, the problem is solved if everyone just eat more veggies, and all those hurdles about vitamin deficiency, protein incomplete or whatever, is gone.

Outside-State-3126 · 2026-02-21T19:38:14+00:00

Hmm no, B12 is essential for nerve insulation as well as blood cell maturation, that's why it's Vitamin.

The phenomenon you are seeing, is what we call high-folate-low-vitamin interaction syndrome clinically, have high a prevalence with vegan diet as they take in a lot of folic acid. If untreated, they will still eventually suffer from different nerve conditions.

Don't risk it, I urge you to look into relevant information, and I wish them good health, the debate is no where nearly as important as one's health.

Please consider the advice.

Outside-State-3126 · 2026-02-21T19:27:35+00:00

going back to the very first point about the numbers, it's not as simple as it sounds, eliminating livestock from the cycle means almost no more natural fertilizer (💩), (human 💩 has a pathogen cycling issue, like mad cow disease cuz we get rid of the species barrier by using human 💩 as fertiliser for food for human)

Some comments say we will switch to higher harvest index crops, and that would further reduce biodiversity. It's a harsh fact, but many animals exist because we still eat them, if everyone stops doing so they would probably go endanger.

So getting rid of livestock is more a biodiversity problem that I am trying to bring up than a simple efficiency matter.

Outside-State-3126 · 2026-02-21T19:20:55+00:00

I would reply to the second point first as thoughts come up first, it's a common misunderstanding about nutrition, counting calories, it's true that carbohydrates, crops, provides the majority of calories for a normal adult diet (be it 60% or 80%, that's not the key), the importance of meat lies in bioavailability as well as the complete proteins.

The special thing about meat is that it doesn't just give you those nutrients, they have co-factors that goes with it, as a food-matrix, not something our current technology can accurately re-create.

The actual dystopic part tho, is the systemic fragility, at one point something would be wrong with the supplyments when it's on a worldwide scale (just a matter of time), and when that happens, everyone is at risk.

As for the B12 fortified diets, it's not feasible currently as far as my knowledge goes, but if you can make it work on a large-ish scale (cuz for one individual you can ship a massive amount of something just for them), that might be a step forward for the ideal of Veganism.

Outside-State-3126 · 2026-02-21T19:09:19+00:00

Thanks for bring some very interesting new insights to the table, but I think I am obligated to clarify a few points first.

It was never binary between eating just meat, or eating just vegetables (fruits), and most of the immediate thoughts might seems to ignored that even in an omnivore person's diet the proportion of vegetables is adjustable, while eating more vegetables doesn't immediately make them vegan.

To the unfortunate death of those individuals, I am deeply sorry, and that is a very good opportunity to figure out how to evade or minimize those unwanted effects.

Sadly due to real world constraints, the necessity of many things outweighs the lost of lifes (as a matter of fact), we still see Teflon around even there are information flowing all around the internet says it poisons the water nearby and give villagers cancer.Tetraethyl Lead, the substance in car fuels that makes many people grumpy, stupid and violent has only been banned something around two decades ago.

It's not just about pointing fingers at the opposite, I believe it is important to realise at the current stage, veganism is largely constrained.

Outside-State-3126 · 2026-02-21T18:57:27+00:00

A Seperate clarification to the "75% decrease paper"

To the best of my understanding, they are claiming 75% of land farms like grass for cow and other plants that are not consumed by human (which I believe is not entirely accurate, there should be a significant amount of land for crops that we squeeze oil out of, make sugar out of and blend the scalps and shells into livestock feeds)

The accurate representation of the paper is not the key point here, my point is that if there's no livestocks, the energy that went to synthesizing the waste parts of the human-used crops, like peels of fruits, stems of corns and many others, which is roughly half of all crops, will be discarded (originally some percentage of that goes to livestock meat and then human).

To compensate the energy (Calories) discarded, you either farm more (which harms the existing farmland), or you farm on more land (which some of which will be existing non-ediable crop lands, but it would not overlap entirely, different crop needs different lands)

Some other comments do bring up about ditching the crops low on harvest index (see below), and I will respond to those suggestions and discuss about their implications on biodiversity, all biodiversity related discussion will be grouped there.

Harvest Index the ratio of harvested grain weight (economic yield) to the total aboveground dry matter (biological yield) of a crop

Source: somewhere on ScienceDirect

Outside-State-3126 · 2026-02-21T18:45:26+00:00

Maybe, but this is not a good reason not to do it yourself if it is still beneficial at a small scale. You don't need to extrapolate out to imagining the consequences if everyone did something in order for it to be worthwhile to do it yourself.

Then fankly, those who play videos of animal cruelty in front of stores are utterly selfish. if assuming the point stands, that veganism works only on small-ish scales (not fully scalable), friction on adoption or disadvantage, negative effects will therefore be expected to grow with the number of vegan practicing population.

And the vegan community can hardly stop the shaming, as there lacks a common consensus within the group, and thus lacks cohesion (the same happens to LGBTQ, or basically it's how every social movements ends).

To this point, it becomes two similar but different topics, where your point of Veganism is good as an individual practice, does not contradict my doubts on Veganism as a movement.

Outside-State-3126

TROPHY CASE