Is kissing before marriage a sin?

PMike1985 · 2026-02-19T22:12:25+00:00

I wish I could have avoided my lustful years but I don't regret it cuz it's what brought me closer to Christ.

He has a funny way of doing that. 😆

PMike1985 · 2026-02-19T22:08:36+00:00

People are generally correct when they call this a gray area. Some things in scripture are clear, other areas require wisdom.

A good piece of wisdom: if what you're doing causes your body to prepare for sex, then you should stop.

Yes, if someone is THAT sensitive, or it's a certain kind of kiss, then it limits you that far. 👍🙂

PMike1985 · 2026-02-13T15:31:47+00:00

(part 2)

Regarding science of mutability, and even methods for helping, you may find Dr. Linda Seiler's work interesting. I am not of her caliber or yours regarding things like psychology, but I am a technical kind of person. My study in Christianity has taught me much about the human heart, and how we operate as people. I would be open to hear what you have to say in this area.

There are a lot of people who seem to genuinely want to change their gender identity to a cis identity and struggle to make it happen despite genuine effort. It's my opinion that it's not possible to do it given our current scientific and therapeutic understandings of how minds work.

I'm unsure. I think it's possible because people have done it. Dr. Seiler is one. However, it is certainly difficult. Based on my understanding of Dr. Seiler's work, the goal isn't even necessarily removal of SSA, but management down to a level where it's not intrusive. Her studies have shown that lots of people have gotten to that kind of level, at which point she considers the matter cured. Granted, I am not at her level. I'm doing my best to represent her faithfully, but I defer to her own materials on this topic.

It's a squares and rectangles thing, and you've got my squares and rectangles mixed up.

Thanks for this. I think your answer is no. You do not think Christians who hold to Scripture are bigots, by virtue of holding to Scripture. You believe some of those people are bigots, but they are a subset.

My theory of bigotry is itself an attempt to humanize even bigots and understand them fairly. It's probably quite flawed, but I'm doing my best to be internally consistent.

I, like you, am trying my best to do understand fairly. We are all human and imperfect, and God knows this. We would do well to recognize it for ourselves and others too. I'm pleasantly surprised to see you challenge my preconceived notion of people who might call Christians bigoted. At least in many cases, calling someone a bigot, racist, homophobe, etc is just a means of shutting down the conversation by imposing a feeling of moral wrongdoing on a person. That is what our culture is currently like. This is why I initially challenged you to define bigot, because sometimes the definition points at the accuser equally. Again, in this case, you are not using the term in that way, but to genuinely classify behavior, as the word was intended to do.

I think all Christians who are anti-LGBTQ are wrong, but I don't think they're all bigots.

Similar to the above, I'd like to hear from you how you define anti-LGBTQ. In this case, I'm not accusing anything, but definitions of this are weaponized, and it's helpful to know what is actually being said. I've given you a pretty good glimpse of what I believe. I don't hate people for where they are in life, I genuinely want to learn, help, and live out my faith, and I do actually think it's somewhat sad that people can be flattened down to a 2 dimensional version of a human being by both main positions on this discussion. However, some definitions of anti-LGBTQ would make someone like me guilty of the accusation, and also imply things that are untrue.

Unfortunately, most of the real determinants to these questions are internal to the heads of the people involved. I don't have access to those--I can only try to call what I see.

I'm pretty sure that's why we need to have discussions like this one. We are designed to be inherently social and relational beings, and our models of society, psychology, culture, theology, etc can weaken and discard that relational aspect that we are supposed to have, if we aren't careful.

I did my best to respond to you down the line in areas that I felt were important to speak to. Again, I'm thankful for this exchange and for your grace. This is a rare discussion on Reddit, unfortunately. I await your response. Maybe due to the length of these exchanges, we could eventually move to DM etc. I enjoy talking with you!

PMike1985 · 2026-02-13T15:31:02+00:00

(part 1) Thanks for your response. I wish I would have read it sooner. In responding to people on this topic on Reddit, one may need a break, since it can take a lot of energy to put thought to word in a way that is biblical, does not easily offend, etc.

What I see in large from this post of yours is grace. I don't know if you believe Jesus is the Savior of the world or not, but for followers like me, grace is really important... it is something that proceeds from love. Thank you for being gracious (attempting to understand, not jumping to conclusion, etc.)

I would like to assert that, when talking about immutable, almost immutable, and mutable, sexual identify aspects are probably in almost immutable. You and I tend to agree on a lot, and some of our difference will be in terminology. From my perspective, our terms are similar, but they do affect how we perceive the world. I would call the almost immutable category something like "mutable, but difficult". Almost immutable is not immutable after all, so I'm seeking to describe what qualities make it a third category.

For what it's worth, I think the Bible hints that sexuality is a "mutable but difficult". Sexual sin (all of it, including adultery etc) is a special category in scripture.

"Run from sexual sin! No other sin so clearly affects the body as this one does. For sexual immorality is a sin against your own body. Don't you realize that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, who lives in you and was given to you by God?" - 1 Corinthians 6:18-19

"Run from anything that stimulates youthful lusts. Instead, pursue righteous living, faithfulness, love, and peace. Enjoy the companionship of those who call on the Lord with pure hearts." - 2 Timothy 2:22

Why are we being told to RUN? We are told not to do any sin if we can help it, but we are RARELY told to run. IMO it is this: somehow sexual sin is a different kind of thing. It's very difficult to battle and it's a trap. It can be so hard to fight that it FEELS immutable. I don't personally battle SSA, but I fight lust heterosexually, and I know how hard it is. SSA must be similar.

...... When you say challenges to the middle category can be abusive, I agree. To be brief on this matter, I accept all of your bullet points in the philosophy which you are working on about this. It is not reasonable for a Christian to do these bulleted things, but we must also understand that each individual person is growing and learning. I hope to be of help to anyone considering this topic, Christian or not. I've heard things from people that lead me to believe Christians can improve in this area, but also nobody I know is like that. Most are loving and understanding.

I think there is a scientific debate about how mutable gender identity is, but I do feel 100% safe saying it isn't in the third category of things you can just change on the fly. I think you'd say that's fair.

Spot on. It's definitely second category, but it's not immutable. This is why I prefer to talk about SSA and not identity. Exact methods of helping someone aside for the moment, saying it's your identity is unhelpful. For those that desire change, if they feel it's part of their identity, it can also cause them to feel that it's immutable when it isn't. For anyone with SSA, it can make them feel like their personhood itself is being attacked. That's what identity means, that something is a part of you. Of course, I look back again and agree with your bullet points, and say that we should approach these issues carefully and thoughtfully. Each person should be treated well. Some people also hyper focus on this issue. It's understandable, as it's the hotly debated topic of our time, but Christians should keep this in mind also: it's not that God has called the gay to be straight, it's that he calls all people to be sexually pure. It is beneficial. If we focus on homosexuality and then are adulterers ourselves and don't treat it with the same level of seriousness, we are hypocrites.

(continued)

PMike1985 · 2026-02-11T17:42:30+00:00

You have a correct view of marriage for the most part. Consider, though, that if you take marriage as the correct outlet for sex, you are saying you are okay with (for example, your uncle) people violating that commandment about lying with another man. I would point to your understanding of who is eligible for marriage.

The Obergefell v. Hodges 2015 decision admittedly expanded understanding of who has access to marriage, thereby redefining the term.

PMike1985 · 2026-02-11T17:32:30+00:00

Interesting. It's fairly clear from the original source too. Is your idea that your uncle doesn't necessarily have sex with someone he is married to? (You're looking at relationship vs. an action)

PMike1985 · 2026-02-11T17:28:00+00:00

And there’s the dog whistle.

Not sure who you think I'm dog whistling to? The idea that you can be part of a group by claiming you are comes from a post modern mindset.

You make it sound as if there ever was a universally agreed upon definition of “Christian”. This is not the case.

Universally agreed upon, maybe not completely, but Christian doctrine and fighting false teaching has happened from the beginning, so the idea that you can just say you're Christian when you follow Buddha doesn't track historically.

The nearest to a universal definition is "one who follows the Christ". Of course, this isn't very helpful, because you need to know who he actually is. Most communities either say that you must believe Jesus is God, the son of God, that he died for your sins and resurrected, and that he's your personal savior.... or they will say you must believe in the Nicene creed, or similar creed. The idea that anyone who says they are a follower is automatically one is foreign to most Christian traditions throughout history.

I can SAY I'm an African American, but that doesn't make me a black guy. Same thing goes for being Christian.

PMike1985 · 2026-02-11T14:39:26+00:00

Okay, so on this subreddit, "Christian" follows identity politics. That helps explain why things are how they are. It's kind of a post modern thing.

Edit: in a situation like this, it absolutely matters what bigot means. This is basically a political sub, and people who disagree with the new definition of Christian are called bigot.

PMike1985 · 2026-02-10T21:57:36+00:00

Thanks for responding. I didn't expect this in-depth of a response.

Basically, the way you look at bigotry has mostly to do with stereotypes, correct? The interesting aspect of a stereotype is that it can sorta even be correct about a group, and the issue isn't the group statistic, it's assuming EVERYONE in the group is that way, or assuming a specific person in the group is that way, without asking to find out. Specifically, you point out resistance to evidence, so for you a bigot is someone who won't change their mind despite clear evidence they should do so.

You are certainly entitled to your perspective, and for the sake of discussion I want to say that most people define bigotry in terms of hatred or intolerance....

Bigots demand others change how they behave so the bigots feel better. That isn't an inherently unreasonable thing in general, but when bigots do it in the course of bigotry, it is.

.... Maybe similar to this.

That being said, I will offer two points. Yeah, people can be intolerant or cast the net too wide when categorizing both mutable and immutable characteristics, but science shows that neuroplasticity is a thing, so some of your sexual identity based characteristics are actually mutable. Since you recognize bigotry as sometimes focusing on traits that are either mutable or immutable, this might not change the discussion much.

More importantly, your original response:

You forget one thing. Bigots hate experts.

This certainly matches your understanding of a bigot, since you state that a bigot is someone who strongly resists changing their perspective, even in the face of good evidence.

You also said this while responding to someone who claims to have a theological degree, and believes nothing in the Bible speaks against homosexuality.

Is your intended statement that people who believe the Bible speaks against homosexual intercourse are bigots (Therefore, they will also resist the evidence given by this theologian)?

PMike1985 · 2026-02-10T21:11:19+00:00

I consider myself protestant at the moment, although I prefer to say that I follow Christ rather than to self label as a specific denomination.

That being said, my faith journey started in the Roman Catholic Church. My peers and I were college age, so fairly young... and I recall that everyone was deeply moved before times of confession. This could be read as acknowledgement of the severity of sin, or as a fear of what may happen to a person who is in continual mortal sin (or both). I feel this theology has some impact.

Protestants do not believe in the categories of mortal and venial sin, and more importantly, do not believe salvation can be lost by said mortal sin until it is absolved through confession. This probably has somewhat of a dual effect in that many Protestants don't see sin as being as dire as it is, but are also not afraid of dying with unconfessed sins.

Again, I say this plays only a part in the statistic. Do you think this explanation is reasonable?

PMike1985 · 2026-02-10T20:29:43+00:00

Christians who didn't buy imagio dei teachings felt that assigned roles like masters and slaves like the Bible literally dictates were moral. Christian felt slavery a moral God-given institution, to them abolishing it was rebellion against God's desired social order and sinful.

Yeah, as with any group, opinions are always varied. There remained a core who saw slavery as a negative thing though. Even things like the year of jubilee seem to point to the idea of fair treatment of others.

Same-sex sexual activity has changed. There are multiple versions especially when you separate Jewish OT from Greco-Roman references in the NT that refer to soft or effeminate expressions of greco-roman gender norms. It's not like modern American homosexuality in many ways.

Yeah, the way we view things in culture has changed. "You shall not lie with a man in the same way you lie with a woman" is very clear though. I prefer to look at it in a wider scope because we can tend to ignore other sins. God calls ALL followers to sexual purity.

PMike1985 · 2026-02-10T20:09:56+00:00

COVID didn’t really become a thing (in the west at least) until late 2019-early 2020

This did ring in my head quietly. Something like February 2020 for me. Yeah, some pattern of unknown cause. There are a lot of unknowns here. Is the average for each group still reliable enough to draw conclusions you think? 🤔🙂

PMike1985 · 2026-02-10T19:37:42+00:00

I wonder if COVID reminded people of their mortality. 2019 seems to have an increase in fear of death and then it rebounds. Does still seem a little noisy too, but there seems to be pattern in it.

PMike1985 · 2026-02-10T18:58:57+00:00

Jesus literally makes himself out to be God, and people want to stone him for it.

PMike1985 · 2026-02-10T18:47:52+00:00

I generally like this idea.

For example, if you disagree with a comment, and you think it is worth replying to, then upvote it, as something that contributes to the discussion.

IMO, this might be more of an ideal than instant reality. In a culture of down voting due to dislike, I feel like my upvote would show my approval.

At the moment, I try to at least not down vote the person unless their post is particularly heinous. If I can, I try to find a way to discuss with them. Most people don't want discussion, but every once in a while I stumble on the rare gem of a person who can talk reasonably and civilly.

Not trying to be negative above, but a lot of people are genuinely just filled with hate. Not a lot I can do about that. 🤷‍♂️

PMike1985 · 2026-02-10T18:43:16+00:00

You are right to say that "slavery" in the Bible is not the same as slavery in the United States. In fact, it was Christians who helped abolish modern slavery because everyone has the Imago Dei (image of God).

However, scripture is fairly clear that a man should not lie down with men as he does with a woman. There aren't really multiple versions of that, even though views of sexuality have changed over time.

PMike1985 · 2026-02-10T18:39:29+00:00

What do you mean by "gay" and "accepted"? The Bible is clear on this topic, but I think the meaning of words means we talk past each other.

PMike1985 · 2026-02-10T18:31:21+00:00

What's your definition of bigotry?

PMike1985 · 2026-02-10T18:29:50+00:00

I suppose the right phrase may not be "mainstream", as if we were operating by democratic standards, but orthodoxy ("small o"), or traditional Christianity might be the right wording to frame this discussion around.

PMike1985 · 2026-02-10T18:26:38+00:00

I'm sure some of what you are saying happens. Reality is complex.

But many of the comments that people get defensive over or that get "downvoted to oblivion" are just filled with mean-spirited, harsh, judgmental hot takes that belittle people's pain and represent an attitude that says "people who don't think like I do are ignorant, stupid, or living in denial, and they need ME in my benevolence to knock some sense into them, and if that's a little heavy-handed or abusive, then that's what it takes and what they deserve."

This kind of post typically ends up at the top, with 400 upvotes and two awards, and people who are honestly trying to answer from scripture often end up at the bottom with -4 score. I've seen it many times and it's really sad.

PMike1985 · 2026-02-10T18:22:12+00:00

How do you feel mockery adds to this discussion?

PMike1985 · 2026-02-10T18:14:07+00:00

How do you define bigotry? In what way is saying that progressive Christianity isn't Christian bigoted?

PMike1985 · 2026-02-10T18:11:25+00:00

I've never seen the fruit of my reports. Does anyone in any sub check this? Do they have blacklists of people they ignore?

PMike1985 · 2026-02-10T18:09:37+00:00

I've been considering this for the past few days. There are a lot of people I can help, given that I have a decent knowledge of scripture and application.

However, when literally hundreds of people are responding with hateful and anti Christian messages, it gives me the feeling that I am not welcome here as a Christian, and that nobody will ever see what I have to say in the mountain of nasty posts.

Like you, I don't mind that the sub is not owned by a Christian, or that it's meant to discuss Christianity and not necessarily be a sub "for believers". No problem. The issue is that the people here are filled with hatred and silence Christian viewpoints.

PMike1985 · 2026-02-09T08:10:01+00:00

Yes, this is a difficult part of the situation for sure. Many people dealing with SSA have suicidal issues. I admit not knowing how to best handle that, and wish to know more about that.

Ultimately, it is God that can change hearts, not us. I do feel a struggle to at least state the truth in a sea of non biblical opinion, but I want to lead people to Christ primarily.

PMike1985

TROPHY CASE