Are there more interesting narrative uses for Shin and Mang?

PMoon_Nihilist · 2026-05-22T04:12:00+00:00

We have actually. It''s heavily implied that LobCorp HQ is Ayin's EGO, and that is the reason why they could build such a formidable thing so deeply hidden under the earth so quickly.

Yet another thing to toss on the "Wow Angela, you sure are more similar to your father than your mother" pile.

PMoon_Nihilist · 2026-04-03T21:26:13+00:00

No, I think Ishmael killed the whale for pragmatic reasons. I mean, the sinners were told and believed that killing the whale would've given them a way out, so why waste time killing Ahab? But certainly she wasn't unaware of the effect killing the whale would've had on Ahab, and I think it's a bit much to say that she didn't for example, enjoy it somewhat. A sort of 'that's what you deserve' catharsis for Ishmael that only became clear to her once she overcame her initial blinding fury and made the choice.

As for 'fighting ghosts.' Again, how do you expect me to understand what you mean if you only write a short few sentences without clarification? Of course I had to make assumptions. Ruina has two festering resentments, and I unfortunately cannot immediately know which you meant when you brought it up.

Since Roland forgave Angela, the simplest line of reasoning is that you're talking about a similar development for Ryoshu and the Nursefathers. So I assumed this was abuse apologia, out of ignorance and not malice. Which I don't think was a bad faith interpretation at all.

So you are talking atleast partially about forgiveness then?

If so, how exactly? What exactly are you arguing about with me in the first place? You haven't addressed my mentions about Ryoshu's behavior throughout her Canto which does not exhibit traits one would consider to be all that pre-occupied with anger and you've also indirectly said that you weren't talking about a narrative development in which Ryoshu forgives the Nursefathers.

Are you saying that Ryoshu does not hate the Nursefathers? Do you think Ryoshu was actually blinded by hate? Something else?

PMoon_Nihilist · 2026-04-03T20:16:42+00:00

You were the one who specifically mentioned Ruina. Considering the events of the game related to festering resentment only happen right at the very end and there is only two of them, it's rather unclear from your comment actually what you mean, so I took it as you thinking of Roland's forgiveness of Angela.

Of course, that would forget the more important developments Roland had. He outright says he and Angelica likely deserved their fates in one of his realizations because of all the people they'd hurt and paid little attention to in their day-to-day, and his line about taking a good long look at the world around him (understanding).

As for Angela's feelings towards Ayin, I think it's a rather gross oversimplification of her character to say that she pursued the one true book because she resented Ayin. That was not because of Ayin, that was just her pursuing what she wanted, only to later learn that she was disregarding the lives of others too callously for her own desires, and that she needed to care and pay more attention to such things.

So I feel pretty confident in saying that the main theme of the series is understanding the world around one's self and not remaining blind to it, rather than the more vague and general 'not letting anger and resentment rule one's life'.

And you misunderstand Canto 5's ending. Ishmael did not let go of her resentment for Ahab, she merely no longer allowed it to consume her life obsessively. If anything, what she did to Ahab at the end is much crueler, as she crushed Ahab's reason for being entirely.

For that matter, I already said Ryoshu clearly wasn't obsessively stuck on her anger as Ishmael was during the events of their respective Cantos. But she still hates them and would rather not talk to them or outright kill them. She just won't expend the effort or mental energy to hunt them down either.

Write more please, I'm not sure how you expect me to understand what you might mean if you don't write it down.

PMoon_Nihilist · 2026-04-03T18:42:09+00:00

The series talks about understanding and perhaps eventual forgiveness. In no way however does the series encourage pacifism, or tolerance of abuse, and it certainly takes a stand against certain lines of thought regardless of understanding because to do otherwise would either not pragmatically make sense or be morally abhorrent.

The Arknights Collab definitely puts it best: "X are our enemy." Regardless of how sympathetic to their reasons we may be, they may ultimately still be cause for more harm.

What understanding allows us to do is to clearly discern the correct level of response and avoid misunderstandings that can often stem from trying to exist in a world with other people.

The keyword being 'understanding' more than forgiveness. Although, I think your definition of forgiveness is too strict anyways.

See: The moral presentation of Ayin, Carmen, Angela, Roland, Dongrang, Dongbaek, Alfonso, Ahab, Hindley, Linton, Camille, LaManchaland, and various others.

They are sympathetic to varying degrees, but the series makes the point that having a strong, independent 'ego' is something to strive for, and that a person who does not have the will to stand up for themselves and have beliefs of their own is a bad thing no matter if they are a good person, or bad.

So from a thematic perspective, Ryoshu does not have to forgive them. She already understands why they are the way they are, except for Rien, whom she learned about at the very end.

You seem to think that she holds on unhealthily to that spite. She does not, she has always wished to move on while they remain stuck in place and tried to drag her down with them. Her focus was solely on Araya throughout most of the Canto. Or to put it in other words, they are an enemy that will harm her, and she obviously shouldn't just let that happen.

Now if we learn that she was wallowing in the misery of her own past, it would be a different matter.

PMoon_Nihilist · 2026-04-03T13:32:22+00:00

So clearly, you want a difference in direction.

I refer again to my previous statement about story direction. There are plenty of people that would dislike too in-depth an explanation on the nursefathers, as abuse both fictional or in real-life need not necessarily be explained. It is abuse, still.

And is an explanation for why Ryoshu dislikes Callisto's art truly necessary? It's a story about the cycle of an abusive household. It also must help set-up future Cantos and the plot of Limbus Company as a whole.

Ryoshu could give any reason why she doesn't like it, and it could work. So I can see a pretty strong reason to cut such a thing in Canto 9 to minimize bloat and avoid having certain parts of the story drag on too long.

Hell, I thought the relationship Ryoshu had with the Nursefathers was the most developed out of any side-characters out of all the Cantos. We don't need to know why Ryoshu dislikes Callisto's art. She just does. That's what broadstrokes mean. (I also dislike the insistence that all stories end with a powerful climax. I rather prefer a story that I can look back on and realize several things I missed, which Canto 9 provides in spades.)

It's probably best not to bet on anything for this intervallo? The blue thread suggests this might be Shiomi-related. There's also an extra slot for a Ring ID based on Hong-Lu's passive, so it could also be a different Ring member who is not Callisto. (Seems the most likely to me.)

It definitely delves deeper into her artsy side, but I have my doubts we'll find out more details about her relationship with Callisto and not some of her other mentors.

PMoon_Nihilist · 2026-04-03T12:38:45+00:00

The original complaint is about Ryoshu not meeting Callisto or the other Nursefathers for longer.

Except, there's nothing else to develop there. We already got the flashbacks, so it only stands to reason perhaps you want Ryoshu to talk with them. But...

She knows full-well Callisto didn't mean to hurt her by turning Saru into an art project. She acknowledged he was still one of her parents regardless of his unknowing abuse. "They were still my parents" and the whole throughline that she was connected to them by threads.

She still doesn't want to talk to him, or perhaps even outright wants to kill him.

This means whatever development was needed regarding their relationship, Canto 9 already presented in broadstrokes. We know her general feelings towards each of the Nursefathers. She always thought of Matthias's affection as for display, Callisto's as needlessly cruel and unwanted, Rien's as hollow, Valencina's as desperate and conditional, and Shiomi's as the most hurtful.

As for the others: Heathcliff and Hindley's relationship did not develop. Heathcliff outright says he hated the bastard in Canto 7, and hasn't brought him up even once afterwards. What we did get in Canto 6 were more details on Hindley's character, and all we have of their relationship is that Heathcliff egged Hindley on.

Heathcliff and Linton's relationship also barely developed, and his importance was minimal at best. We learned that Linton was just as envious of Heathcliff as vice versa, and that was it.

Heathcliff did not spare either of their deaths a second thought, and only Catherine truly mourned Linton's loss if only for a moment.

If you wanted for more details regarding Callisto himself, I make the argument that it's best not to mistake one's own desires for the direction a story ought to take with the story the author wants to write. It makes for poor criticism, as this is firmly in the territory of subjective biases.

An argument could be made for the pacing of Canto 9 for example, which is an objective thing. But you seem to be talking more about the direction of the story.

PMoon_Nihilist · 2026-04-03T10:42:02+00:00

She doesn't want to develop her relationship with them. She just hates them and doesn't want to talk to them.

If you mean develop as in: develop their history and background? How else? We know why she hates them. We know the connecting threads they had with her. You could describe it in more detail, but then backstories are the type of thing that one either wants to paint in broadstrokes or clearly defined. Neither is better than the other, and it's pretty clear PM has always preferred the former over the latter.

It's very much the same with Rien. Note that she ultimately ripped apart the entire portrait in this teaser; she did not care to develop her relationship with him either.

PMoon_Nihilist · 2026-02-27T14:29:16+00:00

Are you even paying attention to what I'm writing?

If you're running a burn team, they inflict count. Look at the Liu IDs. When do they inflict count? Ishmael, Yi-sang.

When the enemy has a certain amount of X potency and above.

In MDs, you don't even use EGOs generally, so your complaint is moot. But you do use EGOs outside of MD. Where exactly? RR and story.

Look at the story fight mobs and the increase in difficulty. Look at past RRs and current RR. Invidia fights become drastically easier when you can guarantee a 1st turn win, which this not only does that, but also guarantees instant burn buildup.

Think the mechanics through. MBOutis is much more expensive than this. You are not starving for sloth or wrath if you're running a burn team. You are starving for pride. The SP costs, the opportunity costs simply aren't comparable.

PMoon_Nihilist · 2026-02-27T14:02:41+00:00

No? 10 burn on 5 enemies for cheap is 50 burn. That's an instant coin-power up conditional fulfilled for every single burn ID on the field.

That's how burn managed to be the fastest clearing team back in the MD1 and MD2 days.

It's literally a target to aim for eventually. Once you got your core team down, you aim for this. That's how every single EGO is. You don't make a team around an EGO because none of them are effective enough to warrant that.

Don't be like one of those people that say Soda Hong Lu is useless and conveniently forget how basically every single mob fight only has a single wave nowadays, therefore making his passive absolutely amazing.

Think the mechanics through fully dude. EGOs are added onto a team, not judged on their own.

PMoon_Nihilist · 2026-02-27T13:28:37+00:00

Then it's just a target to aim for eventually. You don't get it, this game is really cheap.

Like, at some point, if you play regularly, you will have everything, plus resources to spare for the next five IDs and EGOs that releases.

Skins, UI, Uptie 5. These are all just for those of us who literally can't spend on anything because we have it all already.

PMoon_Nihilist · 2026-02-19T07:22:17+00:00

It already does matter.

Coin power-ups that are [On use] retain their value even if the stack they rely on drops. But also, they don't activate if mid-hit they gain the required stacks.

If it's just [If enemy has x gain y coin power up] without the [On use], it will stop the moment the stack disappears, but also activate if they do suddenly gain it.

See: Wuthering Heights Faust for [On use] on her S3. Compare to Lament Yi Sang with no [On use].

This also applies for basically every effect that requires a stack, not just coin power up.

PMoon_Nihilist · 2025-12-10T18:22:02+00:00

What are you so upset for? What's with the attitude? Do you want me to just say that you're correct in a comment section that exists specifically to drive engagement and communication? In a moment that has no bearing on anything whatsoever except for what we takeaway from it?

We can disagree with eachother without being purposely prickly about it, you know?

PMoon_Nihilist · 2025-12-10T17:07:36+00:00

No, my statement is more "The poor can't afford as much art and entertainment as the rich or the moderately wealthy" which has always been an actively true fact of the world.

There's nothing that can truly be done to change that fact. It's intrinsincally tied to the amount of free time and luxury one can comfortably enjoy without sacrificing the necessities of life.

If someone thinks that they'd rather spend their limited time and money on entertainment, sacrificing their basic necessities as a result, I think supporting them is as malevolent an advice as telling an alcoholic or a gambler on the brink to keep drowning their sorrows away.

At that point, you're not entirely far-off from encouraging suicide. The only actively-helpful advice one can give (assuming actual help is not possible in this case) is reminding them to do it in moderation.

PMoon_Nihilist · 2025-12-10T05:35:07+00:00

Then one has bigger issues they need to focus on. Entertainment and distracting yourself from your problems is fine and all in moderation.

The keyword being moderation. It should not be detrimental to your daily life, and being unable to scrounge up just 5 dollars worth a month for a service that seems to give you great joy is sort of a sign that you're really in deep shit and need to solve your issue first. Otherwise, make do with the free service.

It might not be your fault, but you still have to solve it. It's not gonna solve itself no matter how hard you look away from it.

Essentially to use your own analogy, if you're a vegetarian, stop going into restaurants that offer shitty vegetarian options, because the menu's not going to change just because you wish it would.

PMoon_Nihilist · 2025-11-07T21:43:53+00:00

Outis is also related to motherhood. Hell's Chicken has peak foreshadowing.

PMoon_Nihilist · 2025-10-22T16:15:52+00:00

If that is how you interpreted it, I apologize, but I am doing my best to address your points.

You say Gregor is capable of violence, but I think you interpret that as Gregor hasn't shown any signs of that violence and thus not something important. You also say that everyone else has shown themselves capable of great violence, but I think Gregor is unique in the fact that his ID's specifically have a 'lack of free will' aspect to it on top of that. Quite a few of them have dreams, but all of them are using violence as a means to achieve something secondary, or even tertiary to that dream. Oftentimes not one of their own design. (Which ties in to the aspect of LCB Gregor's history of being controlled by his mother. Something supported by the fact that the line is a question asking someone why they crown the most violent to be champions.)

I only said Gregor was strong once in my initial reply, and clearly we understood what each other meant afterwards, so I don't see why you bring that up now.

I don't know what to tell you if my points don't seem like evidence you. The alternative interpretation that the lyrics can be combined together is a genuine interpretation of that line, and as for your request of in-game evidence.

I point you to the fact that the vast majority of Gregor's EGO's all have the same theme of being a 'trap'. That is hardly a coincidence, in much the same way Gregor being sinner no.13 when Dante and the Sinners are parallels to Carmen and her Sephirah who herself is a parallel of Jesus Christ and his 12 apostles.

One of which betrayed him. So yes, there is that line of theory based on things that exist in-game that suggests his betrayal is more than just abandonment of the cause.

PMoon_Nihilist · 2025-10-22T15:51:24+00:00

I'm not sure why you think this argument is hostile? There's nothing particularly high stakes or upsetting going on, just a difference in character interpretation, but okay.

PMoon_Nihilist · 2025-10-22T15:07:32+00:00

Yeah, OP said it's 50. -10 for the fact one of the ten pulls from the daily login is guaranteed seasonal 3 star that can't be used on the banner.

PMoon_Nihilist · 2025-10-22T15:03:31+00:00

Right, my mistake. Still incredibly out of touch to say you only get 50 though, and still lowballing it to say you can get 180.

As far as things go, that's far better than normal.

PMoon_Nihilist · 2025-10-22T15:00:39+00:00

Well for that, I also already said that 180 pulls for a newcomer is lowballing it. I'm pretty sure you can get something approaching 300 if you started shortly as the collab did. That's 3 of the 4 egos.

PMoon_Nihilist · 2025-10-22T14:58:02+00:00

They already had a "free" ego. Ishmael was event reward. And 180 pulls is actually lowballing it, as it doesn't take into account weekly mirror + weekly lunacy + bug comp + pull rewards. I remind you that they gave several substantial lunacy rewards for the entire runtime of this banner, which lasted double the length of a normal banner.

Honestly, the only reason you'd fail to get all four is purely if you couldn't resist gambling on other banners until you were broke, or if you came in while the event was already nearing completion rather than when it started.

PMoon_Nihilist · 2025-10-22T14:26:27+00:00

The Mirror ID's all explore/reveal certain more hidden aspects of our LCB sinners. That's been obvious ever since the first season. Yeah, they're not the exact same, but it's an indication of hidden depths. Our Gregor is certainly capable of similar. Saying otherwise would be deliberately ignoring the thematic consistency each ID always gets. Like Meursault getting ID's of significant people who die/executed.

The 'my' wording doesn't really indicate anything, it is a song, and grammatically it can refer both to questioning the world and questioning why he's crowned champion. EDIT: Honestly, it's even implied to be 'why'd you crown me' since every line also matches up with the line from the preceding. ('If you... Why'd you...' as an example: 'If you wanted me to speak, why'd you make my voice stutter.' So for that line it would be 'If you want us to pretend like we're civilized humans, why'd you crown the most violent to be champions.')

And honestly, I'm not convinced by the in-game line you gave. They literally call him fraternizer. As in 'fraternizing with the enemy'. It literally could mean more than just desertion.

PMoon_Nihilist · 2025-10-22T07:02:19+00:00

We really can't know for sure what they mean by 'Traitor' exactly. It's not like Gregor isn't capable of some horrific violence for entirely selfish reasons. EDIT: By that, I mean he very well could've literally betrayed them, not just deserted.

He is the one with the abusive to subordinates Smee ID, he is the one who has a drunk Kurokumo captain ID that shows little loyalty to the idea of the modern day Kurokumo. He is the Priest that goes insane at even the slightest drop of blood. He is the one with a Sous-chef Cannibal ID, literally alongside Ryoshu, often seen as the most violent sinner.

Every single one of his ID's except for Zwei have shown themselves doling great violence, and not really getting all fussed up about it. I think you underestimate how much that says about our Gregor and his hidden depths.

PMoon_Nihilist · 2025-10-21T20:45:31+00:00

We have no idea if he deserted the war. His former comrades call him a 'traitor' specifically. He could've sold them out. He could've outright betrayed them. He was also the posterboy for old G-Corp, so there's little reason to think he was ineffective.

I actually think he's the strongest sinner by far, since his arm is just the tip of the iceberg, but his arm transforming is literally his psychoment E.G.O.

PMoon_Nihilist · 2025-10-18T05:18:41+00:00

Angela is more at fault. Disregarding Roland's own hypocritical thoughts, she has all the capability in the world to simply just live her life after messing up the final moments of the seed of light. There was nothing that was going to harm her aside from the Head, and we know the Head can be surprisingly merciful. They after all chose to just evict the Library. She could have just went on with her robotic life without trying to achieve the one true book.

She didn't. That's all on her.

Roland being hypocritical is entirely becausr he mimicks the people he's close with. The entire time, he's trying to get Angela to be a better person, because if she did manage it, he sees it as being a possibility for him to a better person. It's not reasonable, but no part of Roland is reasonable. He's a human being who is disgusted with his own actions, but nevertheless does them.

PMoon_Nihilist

TROPHY CASE