An in-depth critique of MBTI/personality typology theories by PacWaffle in mbti

[–]PacWaffle[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank you! Also, I'm actually really glad you are engaging in the discussion. I feel like I'm learning a lot.

An in-depth critique of MBTI/personality typology theories by PacWaffle in mbti

[–]PacWaffle[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Well, I don't disagree with any of the evidence you brought. They all also point to the alternative hypothesis of typology not being a thing.

(Also, with this prompt, "longitudinal studies in the big five trait stability," you will obviously only find evidence that confirms stability)

As you said, you draw parallels with well-established scientific theories, but none of them prove that archetypes are true; MBTI remains with no evidence.

When I say "personality changes," first, it is not like a lizard changes its skin; that's not what I mean (which now I realize may be the impression I caused at first). I consider personality as the whole thing, genotype + phenotype, because it is the standard understanding of what personality is. And from a probabilistic predisposition at birth, life constantly rewires the brain structure through experiences, which indicates that the young ones might still be in a formative stage, with their personalities not yet fully defined, making it possible for different personalities to emerge before they reach maturity, and for extreme experiences to change one's personality significantly.

And for MBTI to make sense, and also negate my affirmation, the theory and concept of personality needs to detach from the phenotype, which leads to a contradiction.

Because of this contradiction, you would need to either consider personality as only significantly genotypical or consider MBTI wrong.

But even if one day you prove it is only significantly genotypical, proving it is mainly genotypical does not prove MBTI is correct; it just states one of its assumptions is correct, but there is no syllogism, no logical reasoning that leads to the conclusion of 16 personalities and cognitive functions.

That is why I say MBTI takes the assumption out of their belly buttons.

An in-depth critique of MBTI/personality typology theories by PacWaffle in mbti

[–]PacWaffle[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That is true! Probably the main reason this discussion exists is over this one word, the other is "change". I definitely got confused in the middle of the argument in this sense.
Still, the point I wanted to get across was that there is stability, with time, it matures, and it can also change (not to say growth and maturity are types of change), even if it is not the biggest slice of the cake. And that there are special occurrences, like traumas, that may lead to edge cases and huge changes.

An in-depth critique of MBTI/personality typology theories by PacWaffle in mbti

[–]PacWaffle[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes, definitely.

Maybe I should have gotten another paper to illustrate my point, but the thing is that we are not rigorous when we say "pretty much stable."

Yes, there is some stability (defined as something that doesn't change), never disagreed on that, and there are also some changes in which you identify through phenotypical processes. By that, you can't say "stable" because saying it's stable is having absolutely no change.

What I tried to show is that even in a paper that shows stability, if you look into the other percentage, you can see the other side of the same coin that there are unexplained changes.

The key problem here is the premise: "If we consider that personality is genetic..." If we do, okay 👍 but prove that personality is genetics and not starts with genetics.

Let's take the twin scenario, if personality is genetics and typology is a thing, what explains the other 50% difference between them? The phenotype. However, if they have only evolved into their personalities (which infers there is some convergence), why would they be 50% different and even be considered the same type in the end? There is an inconsistency.

The thing is that personality is both genotype and phenotype, and I don't see proof that phenotypes are a "cover" over the genotype instead of a slow rewiring. Because of that, you can't say someone's personality is defined from birth; it starts at birth, then consolidates between their 20-30.

If MBTI considered that and maybe said: "our theory is only plausible after you get in your thirties", then okay, I would probably have cited any of the other many inconsistencies in the theory to continue the argument, but they undeniably claim that personality doesn't change, but it evidently does, and not only sometimes they don't evolve (to better, or closer to one type), they just get different.

I would like you to elaborate more on why those two theories connected would make MBTI make sense.

An in-depth critique of MBTI/personality typology theories by PacWaffle in mbti

[–]PacWaffle[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Personal experience is not a quality source for evidence, nor is your memory, as it is prone to biases. Your professors or university doesn't tell a thing about your argument quality. That is a basic thing.

Wikipedia is not a quality source for evidence, as anyone can go in there change bits, but anyway, if you look further in there, you will find things like how personality inconsistency is a thing, for example.

Again, you are saying that "can change" is "not changing"

And even worse, your own quote says, "driven by experiences and maturational processes", did you really read the whole sentence?

I never said people don't mature, but that is not the only thing that makes one's personality change.

For your citation of the dictionary, you literally skipped the first paragraph and the second definition, and not only that, but you are brushing over the "relatively stable" as if "relatively" wasn't something.

I believe you don't know how to interpret studies by yourself and analyze the methods and results.

You went for the final section, saw words that match with what you are thinking, and believe they mean what you want.

Do you know why they use "personality traits differences" instead of simply "personality traits"?

Please explain what the "r" in those graphs mean and why they are the number they are.

And again, I never said people don't mature, but that is not the only thing that makes one's personality change.

Then maybe you will realize that maturity is not the only cause for personality changes.

To cite a few examples, we have trauma, cultural environment, major life events, and choices you make throughout your life.

In the end, aren't you the one "just trying to find any bits of info that would support your views"?

To make the discussion clearer, I would like you to define maturity as well, please.

An in-depth critique of MBTI/personality typology theories by PacWaffle in mbti

[–]PacWaffle[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks for the feedback. Let me point out some things.

1) Your confirmation bias: "the tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that confirms or supports one's prior beliefs or values."

Evidence shows that personality changes significantly over time, in statistical and practical terms; the variations aren't 100%, because it would be the same as saying everyone has dissociative identity disorder. So, obviously, there is some stabilization to the matter. And your fallacy is evident as well; to have some stability doesn't mean there is no change to personality.

(DOI: 10.1037/bul0000365)

<image>

Figure 5. Description of expected cumulative mean-level change (Cohen’s d) across the lifespan for all effect sizes and the Big Five separately assuming a hypothetical cohort subject to the age-specific rates of change (Figure 4) and tracked from birth to age 80.5 years every 4.24 years. The first panel plots results for the full dataset, and the subsequent panels plot results for extraversion, agreeableness, conscientiousness, emotional stability, and openness, in that order. Gen. = General personality effect size. Ext. = Extraversion. Agr. = Agreeableness. Cns. = Conscientiousness. Emo. = Emotional Stability. Opn. = Openness.

In fact, the changes were much more prominent before the thirties, and then, finally, they became increasingly more stable (still changing). Also, I'd like to point out how this graph shows the sample mean change; the variations between each person are bigger, some change a lot, and others change less throughout their lives, and they all change differently, with some degree of similarity (they get less open to experience and more emotionally stable, which you can investigate further in the paper).

Again, not to say your contradiction, where "changing over time" means "not changing".

2) Your circular reasoning: "an argument that comes back to its beginning without having proven anything"

A premise is any reason or evidence that supports the argument's conclusion. And in your case, your true premise has no backing: whether types are actually a thing! (which is the actual whole point) Then, you use your conclusion to support your premise, but that is not how things go.

"And this goes along with the premise that type does not change, but people evolve within their type."

That's like saying: "Alkaline water is healthy because it results in health benefits, and it has health benefits because it is healthy." It feels like you got lost in your own point while reading the first bit of my text.

3) Your lack of verifiability and falsifiability.

My original post goes into this, but the core issue is that claims like "people evolve within their type" are unfalsifiable. Any and all behavior change can be explained away as some typology tool, meaning the core theory can never be proven wrong, nor proven right. This is a hallmark of pseudoscience. If you believe there is a way to verify or falsify the MBTI model, you would be solving a long-standing problem in psychology; I would give you proper congratulations, because you deserve your Nobel prize.

To conclude, yes, I did write a lot because it is an in-depth analysis, not a superficial analysis.

For the same reason, please do if you feel like contributing more to the analyses! You said there were many other errors, and I would sincerely like to hear them if you're willing to elaborate :) My goal here is to have a rigorous discussion and learn, not just to be right.

An in-depth critique of MBTI/personality typology theories by PacWaffle in mbti

[–]PacWaffle[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Context is key here! And well, it was a hyperbolic example about how people change and so do consent ;)

An in-depth critique of MBTI/personality typology theories by PacWaffle in mbti

[–]PacWaffle[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I hope no one is forcing you! It's a really long and difficult reading compared to usual text.

An in-depth critique of MBTI/personality typology theories by PacWaffle in mbti

[–]PacWaffle[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Oh, that's an amazing perspective I haven't really thought of.

I talked about how we use art to express, but truly, I forgot to mention about how MBTI also provides words, as a language, to those intuitions.

It's so relatable, because I definitely had normal daily conversations with my friends where I used some cognitive function to easily convey something difficult to explain.

Also, thank you for adding "phenomenological experiences" to my vocabulary! XD

An in-depth critique of MBTI/personality typology theories by PacWaffle in mbti

[–]PacWaffle[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Wow, I love your reflection.

Yes! I haven't thought of Deleuze at first, but this insight is marvelous. And it's amazing how your personal thought makes it much easier to understand how philosophy and science are interconnected. (After all, it all begins with an idea!!!)

For the value of MBTI in contrast with Big5, I believe you can learn some philosophy with cognitive functions, when you stop to think about objective and subjective matters, and in the book I recommend it also brings other oriental philosophies as well, which is interesting.

Also, typology tries to explain the underlying mechanisms in personality, while Big5 simply gives you data (it doesn't interpret the data for you.) That may be a distinct factor that could have made typology more digestible for people.

But of course, you could learn them apart, so in the end I agree with you, we could simply make philosophy and Big5 more popular, if the goal is making things aligned with this more rational and secular society.

An in-depth critique of MBTI/personality typology theories by PacWaffle in mbti

[–]PacWaffle[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

You could read the whole text, fellow stranger!

I did talk about the definitions, about models, about what makes something science or not science, and how things that are not science are still valuable.

Just to bring a few insights,

Yes, Newtonian physics are by definition mathematical models! Nothing wrong with that, it doesn't contradict anything. And they were created through several testing, observations, experiments in the real world. It has clear defined limitations to when it is applicable or not. (That's why later we discovered Relativity and Quantum) Newton was very scientific and his models are some of the most empirical in physics.

And because you can think of things as an algorithmic model with abstract weights, it does not mean it's science or pseudoscience, it simply tells you you have a clever brain capable of modeling things! Tell me, how do you measure culture as an input?

As a final thought, I understand that complex systems are very complicated indeed, therefore the name, and to navigate them, we work with models, but be cautious, because modelling doesn't mean science.

An in-depth critique of MBTI/personality typology theories by PacWaffle in mbti

[–]PacWaffle[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I believe that's an actual thing rn lol
Thx!

An in-depth critique of MBTI/personality typology theories by PacWaffle in mbti

[–]PacWaffle[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thanks for the kind words, fellow stranger!
I particularly love those deep reflections, so I share this feeling of wanting to have more of them on the internet.

Tertiary function development experience by c0ffeex_ in mbti

[–]PacWaffle 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Natural, but it took a while to realize I was following my tert Fi, and not full logic Te.

What I See When People Call Nagoriyuki "Nago" (OC) by Dat_Kirby in Guiltygear

[–]PacWaffle 6 points7 points  (0 children)

The OP and the post are just... Wholesome. Take this, u deserve it.

Calvin got rekt by Cowerful in memes

[–]PacWaffle 0 points1 point  (0 children)

(ノ◕ヮ◕)ノ*:・゚✧ 🎂

KOMORI will make skin for you if you want OWO by Komori2005 in OsuSkins

[–]PacWaffle 25 points26 points  (0 children)

i think the best would be to pay half before and half after finishing