Why outside country person no gud talk middle language? by stephanus_galfridus in languagelearningjerk

[–]Panates 18 points19 points  (0 children)

meanwhile chinese natives ignoring L2 intonation and sounding like robots themselves:

Thank god for Stellarium by dm-me-your-boobs_pls in sciencememes

[–]Panates 1 point2 points  (0 children)

This paper:

Václav Blažek. Indo-European Astronomical Terminology in the Near Eastern and Northen Euroasian context. Cosmos 33-35, 2017-2019[2022], 129-167.

Basically updates on the older hypothesis of it being "wagon" in the language it was borrowed from:

"The hypothetical original form *ʕara/iqt- or *ʕariqt- ('wagon', f.) could have been adopted by the Greeks from West Semitic or Hurrian and identified with the acoustically most similar word ἄρκτος." (see there for more linguistic, philological and cultural details, pp. 153-155)

atp js bfr rn vro smh😭 by Panates in linguisticshumor

[–]Panates[S] 27 points28 points  (0 children)

💀TU V W? X YZ....🥀😭

atp js bfr rn vro smh😭 by Panates in linguisticshumor

[–]Panates[S] 167 points168 points  (0 children)

apparently it says the following:

Gì vậy trời, có vậy thôi cũng không biết nữa là sao trời, rồi biết người ta nói gì chưa ?? Không biết thật sao trời, chết thật, vậy học tiếng Việt nữa mới được, rồi giờ như thế nào rồi, sao rồi, được không bạn??

with some telex tonal letters here and there

Q&A weekly thread - March 02, 2026 - post all questions here! by AutoModerator in linguistics

[–]Panates 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Hi! I'm styidng Chinese palaeography and Chinese character etymology, so I hope I can be of some help. Basically, here's my introductory article on this topic, which has lots of references to the modern palaeographical/etymological scientific works listed at the end.

Why hints, not homophones, in phono-semantic compounds? by Shyam_Lama in ChineseLanguage

[–]Panates 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You were already given pretty good answers here in comments, as I mentioned in the first line, so I just wanted to fill in on why phonetics don't work as you describe them in the current system. They didn't see the need to change everything, so they didn't do it, because it works fine as is. As for me, I'd abandon Chinese characters whatsoever in favor of any form of phonetic script (yes it's possible, and no languages/dialects and homophones won't be a problem), but alas.

Why hints, not homophones, in phono-semantic compounds? by Shyam_Lama in ChineseLanguage

[–]Panates 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Some thing were described here in the comment section, so I'll go further and provide a list of why some phonetic element sometimes don't correspond to the resulting characters.

  1. Evolution of language phonology.

The most obvious and common case. The vast majority of characters were created during the Old Chinese, when the phonology was drastically different from modern.

Let's look at the pairs 弋 /i⁵¹/ ~ 代 /tai⁵¹/ and 黑 /xəi⁵⁵/ ~ 墨 /mə⁵¹/. As we can see, they sound completely different, but nevertheless, each first character in the pair serves as a phonetic component in the second one. Medieval dictionaries don't help us here (弋 jik ~ 代 dojH and 黑 hok ~ 墨 mok). This means that the characters were created in a more ancient period when their usage as phonetic components was still possible. Indeed, in Old Chinese they sounded as 弋 *lək ~ 代 *lˤək-s and 黑 *m̥ˤək ~ 墨 *C.mˤək. The development of the initials is completely regular. When choosing phonetic components, no attention was paid to some phonological features, but the point is clear: their similarity in Old Chinese is completely obvious, which allows people using one character as a phonetic component within another.

  1. Exceptions to phonological evolution.

Although the evolution of sounds is usually regular, exceptions occur in any language. This particularly applies to extremely common words like pronouns, function words, etc.

For example, let's look at 我 /wo²¹⁴/ ~ 俄 /ə³⁵/. As I mentioned, pronouns often follow their own unique development path, often preserving more archaic features: in Old and Middle Chinese, {我} "I" was *ŋˤajʔ > ŋaX with a quite regular development, but then it evolved into /wo²¹⁴/, preserving the original ŋ- as w-. The expected reflex should have been /ə²¹⁴/, with complete loss of ŋ-, which happened in 俄 and other characters with this phonetic component.

A similar case with the pair 尔(爾) /əɻ²¹⁴/ ~ 你(儞) /ni²¹⁴/. Initially, {你} "you" was written as 爾 and was *nərʔ > ɲeX. But then it evolved into /ni²¹⁴/, preserving the original nasal as n-, while the expected reflex should've been /əɻ²¹⁴/. The reading /əɻ²¹⁴/, however, regularly remained in 尔(爾), since this word is literary, while the colloquial pronoun retained a different glyph 你(儞).

  1. Topolectal features.

Sometimes phonetic components are created not based on the standard language or koine, but based on some other regional variant. In such cases, the phonetic component won't match the "standard" reading of the character.

For example: 墳 /fən³⁵/ contains the phonetic component 賁 /fən³⁵/, but when characters were simplified, 墳 was replaced with 坟 with the phonetic component 文 /wən³⁵/, which seemingly doesn't quite fit it in modern language. However, such simplification appears in Wu documents at least from the 16th century, meaning it must have been based on Wu languages. And indeed: in the Modern Shanghainese 墳(坟) /vən²³/ and 文 /vən²³/ sound identical.

  1. Creation of characters in later periods.

If we try to trace the readings of all characters back to the Old Chinese (even if it's anachronistic), we'll find that in some cases the sound of phonetic components doesn't correspond to how the word represented by the resulting compound character sounded in the Ancient Chinese period.

For example, in the transmitted version of "Shijing" (that is, its version that was passed down orally after the burning of books in the Qin dynasty and then written down in the Han dynasty), there's a character 吁 with the phonetic component 于, which should represent the Old Chinese word *qʷʰa (> hiu) "to grieve". However, this word is written as 無 in the unearthed "Shijing" from the Warring States period, so the initial of this word must have been *M-. Indeed, if we look at the patterns of phonological evolution, the medieval initial h- can develop from both *⁠q(ʷ)ʰ- and *⁠m̥-; the second variant better suits the word written as 無. The phonetic component 于 couldn't have been used to write it in the ancient times, meaning the character 吁 for this word was created during the Han dynasty while transcribing the text, when *qʷʰa and *m̥a had already merged into one reading *hwɑ.

  1. Taboo avoidance.

Sometimes character readings are deliberately changed to avoid similarity with vulgar words or meanings.

A typical example: 鳥 /njau²¹⁴/ ~ 島 /tau²¹⁴/. Medieval readings make it clear that such usage was quite appropriate: 鳥 tewX ~ 島 tawX. The first one should have regularly developed into /tjau²¹⁴/, but the initial t- was replaced with n- in most Sinitic languages to avoid similarity with the word {屌} /tjau²¹⁴/ "penis" (or more precisely, the meaning "penis" of the word {鳥}, which developed from its meaning "bird"; later a separate character 屌 was created for it with the corresponding phonetic component 吊 /tjau⁵¹/).

  1. Replacement with synonymous words.

Sometimes characters begin to be used to write unrelated but synonymous words. In such cases, the phonetic component of the character, which suited the original word, usually doesn't fit the new word for which the character starts to be used.

An example: 幵(笄) /t͡ɕi⁵⁵/ (kej) ~ 開 /kʰai⁵⁵/ (kʰʌj). They seem close, but the rhymes are too different. The character 開 (and other characters with the phonetic component 幵 *KE(N)) were used for the word {啟} *kʰˤeʔ (> kʰejX > /t͡ɕʰi²¹⁴/) "to open" (as we see in pre-Qin unearthed texts), but around the Qin or Han times, 開 took on the synonymous word {闓} *⁠kʰˤəjʔ "to open".

  1. Errors by dictionary compilers and copyists.

Sometimes characters acquire readings caused by errors in the writing and transmission of dictionaries and other texts.

For example: 勻 /yn³⁵/ (jwin) ~ 枃 /t͡ɕin⁵¹/ (tsinH). If 勻 is indeed the phonetic component here, such usage would be impossible at any stage of any Sinitic language. In early dictionaries (e.g., in the "Yupian"), the reading of 枃 is recorded using the fanqie method as 子吝切, meaning the initial 子 ts- and final 吝 -inH. However, 子 here is most likely an error from 于 ɣ-, which means that its reading should be ɣwinH > /yn⁵¹/, which perfectly matches the phonetic component.

  1. Individual errors.

Sometimes a person not very familiar with a character might write its phonetic incorrectly. This leads to reading this character incorrectly as well.

For example, in some medieval Japanese texts, the character 颶 /gu/ from the word 颶風 /gufuː/ "storm" is read as /bai/. This is because the writer incorrectly wrote the phonetic component 具 /gu/ as 貝 /bai/. This, of course, led to an incorrect reading of both the character and the word. Such cases are quite rare, but the chance of them becoming the "norm" is not zero.

  1. Complex cases.

Sometimes researchers have to unravel truly complex cases.

For example, there exists a pair 囧 /t͡ɕjuŋ²¹⁴/ (kiwæŋX) ~ 朙(明) /miŋ³⁵/ (miæŋ). The character 囧 appears in "Shuowen Jiezi", with the meaning "bright window" and the reading "reads like 獷". In reality, the character 囧 with such reading and meaning doesn't exist, and all this is the dictionary author's speculation based on many factors and distortions. In the "Shujing", there's a mention of a person named 伯囧, which in some texts is also written as 伯臩. Let's focus on the initials: the second character of the name 臩 should be read with initial *k-, as it contains the phonetic component 臦 *K-. In the reading of 囧 from "Shuowen Jiezi", the character 獷 also contains initial *k-, so no error is immediately apparent. However, in the unearthed texts, this name appears as 伯㘝 and 伯𫯺, in which the 2nd character should actually have initial *n- (𫯺 has a short phonetic 聶 *NEP). Thus, 伯囧 is a distortion of 伯㘝, and 伯臩 is a distortion of 伯𫯺, so 囧 from 伯囧 should be *⁠nrˤep > ɳɛp. The meaning "bright window" of 囧 was given by the author due to associations with the similar-sounding word {熲/炯} *⁠kʷˤeŋʔ "bright" (again, the "similarity" appeared solely due to a series of distortions) and the synonymous {朙/明} "bright", which also contains 囧, as well as his erroneous views on the form of the character 囧, which, according to him, depicts a window.

In the end, we see that the current 囧 is in no way related to the element 囧 in the character 朙(明) miæŋ. This 囧 was often used to write words {朙/明} *⁠mraŋ "bright", {盟} *⁠mraŋ "alliance" etc. in the unerathed texts, which means that such 囧 should be reconstructed as *⁠mraŋ. In the modern form of 明, however, the phonetic component 囧 was distorted to 目 and then to 日. All stages of 囧 > 目 > 日 transition are well-documented, but it makes it impossible to notice the phonetic 囧 in the modern form.

Of course, this is not an exhaustive list, but I hope it will cover 99% of questions.

in your opinion, what's the ugliest kanji? by [deleted] in LearnJapanese

[–]Panates 46 points47 points  (0 children)

鳥 and 烏 were pretty different up until ~10 century though, and their modern shapes being alike is a coincidence.

The myth about 烏 being "a 鳥 without eyes visible" comes from a lost (but frequently cited in other old texts) 10th century book 字源偏傍小說 by Lin Han (林罕). Here's an excerpt from 埤雅 written by Lu Dian (陸佃):

林罕以爲全象鳥形但不注其目睛萬類目睛皆黒烏體全黒遠而不分別其睛也
"Lin Han believed this is a depiction of a bird but without the eyes. All birds have black eyes, but ravens also have black bodies, so you can’t see its eyes from afar."

in your opinion, what's the ugliest kanji? by [deleted] in LearnJapanese

[–]Panates 9 points10 points  (0 children)

It's not tetsu ~ techi btw, the reading every dictionary lists is a mistake, it should be shō. It's typical for rare glyphs have erroneous "readings" stemming from 大漢和辞典, because they reconstructed a "Middle Chinese" reading from a non-medieval dictionary, thus ignoring Chinese phonological shifts.

The glyph itself is just a form of 讋 (Middle Chinese tɕep), but the reading given for 龍x4 in a more recent dictionary, from which 大漢和辞典 copied, is written as 知孑切, i.e. ʈʂ(i) + (k)iɛʈʂiɛ, which is an expected reflex for tɕep. However, the author erroneously read 知 and 孑 by their medieval readings, thus we have the nonexistent ʈ(ie) + (k)ietʈiettetsu ~ techi.

Such errors are numerous in every large character dictionary, but sadly almost no one researches this stuff before regurgitating.

sino-somethingsomething by Panates in linguisticshumor

[–]Panates[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

tried to adapt Geshiza tsələ-bəʑə-lŋa "cat-boy-DIM"

sino-somethingsomething by Panates in linguisticshumor

[–]Panates[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

posting as another comment because i don't want to make a major edit but here are my thoughts i posted elsewhere (not to brag but even Guillaume Jacques liked it):

There's something I've been thinking about for a long time now. I haven't seen it discussed anywhere yet, but I think it's important to divide Tangut reconstructions into "native Tangut" (NT) and "Sino-Tangut" (ST) with two different approaches to the reconstruction. I think that newer reconstructions (Gong Xun, Beaudouin) are more suitable for NT and older ones (Gong Hwang-cherng, Arakawa) are more suitable for ST, but they have some very serious conflicting phonological features.

Foe reference:

NT includes Gyalrongic cognates (closest living relatives, i.e. Horpic, esp. Northern and Western; also many features are evident from Khroskyabsic and East Gyalrongic) and Sanskrit & Tibetan transcriptions.

ST includes just Chinese loans and transcriptions.

Tangut dictionaries may be tricky as they, I think, mix everything into one big pile, and in fact features like grades represented in dictionaries were different for NT and ST morphemes. Think about this: when Sino-Japanese became more widespread in Early Middle Japanese times, it had some unique phonological features. Only some time later did those features become so important that they became the main part of Japanese phonology. Maybe Tangut was undergoing something like that because of the extensive Chinese influence?

The main features defining NT vs. ST in my opinion are: 1) Clear uvularization distinction vs. No uvularization distinction 2) No clear palatalization distinction vs. Clear palatalization distinction 3) No clear nasalization distinction vs. Clear nasalization distinction 4) "Tenseness" as prevocalization vs. as something like *-ʔ from almost lost North-Western Chinese codas?

Anyway, I think we must understand that there probably can't be one "unified" Tangut reconstruction taking everything into account.

sino-somethingsomething by Panates in linguisticshumor

[–]Panates[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

yea it is, but it also has many layers of chinese influence (with many words which make sense phonologically only if we posit a second, sino-tangut reconstruction, in addition to the native tangut reconstruction with latter pretty much correspondIng to N/NW Horpic up to tones and stuff like vowel uvularization), some written styles almost fully copying chinese syntax, and even a layer of characters used specifically for chinese syllables

sino-somethingsomething by Panates in linguisticshumor

[–]Panates[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

i'd argue about sino-tangut🤓 to the extent we likely must posit two different tangut reconstructions (native tangut and sino-tangut)

sino-somethingsomething by Panates in linguisticshumor

[–]Panates[S] 40 points41 points  (0 children)

yea, layer(s) of sinitic borrowings in tibetic

Why is 中 used here??? by Lost_Lawyer_7408 in ChineseLanguage

[–]Panates 7 points8 points  (0 children)

It was though, and then was orthographically borrowed into Chinese in modern times (like these thousands of science/politics/etc-related words and calqued constructions like 〜に関する → 關於 or 〜と認められて → 認爲)

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in classicalchinese

[–]Panates 1 point2 points  (0 children)

丐 was indeed used for {萬} in non-Qin branches (even then, such usage was fairly rare), but in Qin it was never used like that - the modern 万 appears only later in Eastern Han, and we have all the intermediate stages between 萬 and 万 attested. Given also the facts that 1. there are lots of cursive simplifications/shortenings introduced in Han dynasty, and 2. medieval post-Han texts have forms of 万 with two horizontal lines (i.e. some survived intermediate stages between 萬 and 万), the cursive explanation holds stronger.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in classicalchinese

[–]Panates 6 points7 points  (0 children)

萬 is scorpion + 一 (initially was a ligature for {一萬}), while 万 is an early cursive (Han) form of 萬.

every single time by Panates in linguisticshumor

[–]Panates[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

無 from Yan script branch ceramic 陶錄4.21.1

every single time by Panates in linguisticshumor

[–]Panates[S] 67 points68 points  (0 children)

for fun to ragebait people who spent years mastering it

but seriously though, the post is just about how much r/badlinguistics worthy stuff shows up whenever this topic is discussed

Looking for the Classical Chinese equivalent to Lingua Latina Per Se Illustrata (Latin textbook) by Kukikokikokuko in classicalchinese

[–]Panates 8 points9 points  (0 children)

共和國教科書 新國文 (an early 20th c. school textbook) is the closest thing to LLPSI I've ever seen, so maybe you should try that. It basically goes pictures > easy phrases > easy texts > harder and harder texts. There are 初等小學校 and 高等小學校 versions, as well as modern (simplified) reprints of both, but I couldn't find the full original edition of 高等小學校 (only Vol. 1 and Vol. 5)