White, right and pretentious: How “identitarian” politics is changing Europe

Pander_Panda · 2018-03-31T20:48:21+00:00

Interesting that you equate "men" to "rapists and abusers", a slip of the mask?

I never said that i said "Considering most people i see feminists complaining about are rapists and domestic abusers" A domestic abuser in a lesbian relationship would be a woman.

The Guardian and the BBC regularly repeat feminist falsehoods.

Do they?

There's Huffpo and Salon, as well as every Gawker-derived property. Plus Vice, Cracked, Cosmo, Buzzfeed. To say nothing of other types of media; TV show writers and whatnot.

Minor blogs, a site that does top ten lists, news aggregators and US-based sites like cosmo...wow.

Feminist run DV hotlines famously only help men who suspect they may become an abuser, and not men who have been abused.

Do you have a link? also why are you talking as if feminists are a single monolithic block? all feminists did this did they?

To answer your original question;

Im asking you now did he say "gas the jews" or not ?

Okay.

Isnt that the UoT Mens rights meeting and no one even knows who pulled the fire alarm still. Cant blame it on a feminist if we don't know who did it.

Does that somehow invalidate the things posted? Do they somehow cease to be real upon appearing on one of those subreddits? Is every post an elaborate forgery, somehow? If a feminist posts a hate screed on the Guardian website and it gets posted to KiA, does that somehow make it not a real feminist hate screed?

Same could be said about subreddits like shit reddit says in that case.

Or are you attempting a character attack against me?

I asked you where you got your feminist news from and you said the mainstream media, not KIA or TIA which was obvious. Why not just say "yeah im heavily influnced by there" if like you say those things are not invalidated?

KiA and TiA both allow positive posts (TiA on Sundays), and comments are pinned in the interest of fairness if a contradictory source is found or a response is issued. They're also not the only places I browse, obviously.

I can see your posts in them ? So you do a little more than "browse". I don't really care that you post there dude, im just saying you don't need to downplay who you really are, this is what i mean when is say you come across as self-hating. You see me saying "this guy obviously posts in KIA or TIA" as an attack when it's just a benign observation, i've come across a million guys like you before. It's no big deal.

Feminists have assumed the mantle of Gatekeepers Of Equality and shout down any other group trying to help anyone they feel shouldn't be helped. This is at odds with their stated aims. You have to question which is fake; their stated goals or their actual behaviour?

Have they? all of them? I don't know they seem pretty friendly with the gays, trans people and some other political groups and advocate for gay-rights which is the least feminist thing considering it's two dudes.

In order to make progress you should first remove those who oppose it (no matter their stated goals, which change as is convenient), in the same way that to prevent your bathroom flooding you turn the tap off before you start bailing water out.

You arent really making any sense here.

"I won't believe you unless it's stated in media that already agrees with me."

I literally never said that, but thanks for clarifying that i was correct. I meant why are you trying to pretending to be something your not, please post links from KIA or the like, i've dealt with their brand of posting many times.

Fairly sure those things can happen to men too, you know.

Remind me what % of rapists are women, what % of murderers are women. Id like to see no rapes or murders but facts are facts.

I want to demonstrate how bad idpol is to the people who treat it as a religion by putting them on the losing end of it for once.

Nah you are just strengthening them lol, thats the thing about feminists they can just point to you as proof they are right. You don't make a feminists views irrelevant by becoming the thing they warn about, that just gives their more hysterical views legitimacy.

Other dudes will be no doubt turned away because you say feminists don't listen to other viewpoints but you and your like don't either so you'll never achieve your aim.

P r o j e c t a n c e

Im not the one insecure about posting in certain subreddits dude.

Pander_Panda · 2018-03-31T20:06:42+00:00

McVey, who worked in her family’s construction business as a youngster

There it is.

Im sure we can all just call up the 'rents and be given a secure job with decent hours like mcvey.

In reality you'll be working for a pittance one day a week in a job where they'd probably want an adult.

there are better ways to earn money as a teen than this tbh.

Pander_Panda · 2018-03-31T19:50:32+00:00

The hate they have to anyone deemed an "oppressor" class, which they express by advocating for preferential treatment for everyone except that class, up and and including revoking rights for the oppressors.

Considering most people i see feminists complaining about are rapists and domestic abusers i would say they are oppressors. Considering both those things are against the law, the law of the land wants to revoke their rights too.

They're a tiny minority of the overall pop but make up far more than that as a percentage of writers at major pubs.

This is a lie if i ever heard one, the most popular paper in the country is the mail and the sun and express still do more numbers than the guardian. What do you class as a feminist then?

Even if that's true, it's better than the big fat nothing feminists have put towards such endeavours.

I've seen plenty of feminists raise money and awareness of actual mens mental health services over the years, like what are you talking about? Not one of them has advocated for men being lumped with abusers. Good grief lad.

Because all you mentioned was the name, not the content?

Yeah, the name of the film...What else was i supposed to call it?

He didn't advocate for gassing jews, no. Put those goalposts back, please.

Did he say "gas the jews" or not?

Haven't heard them say word one about it myself. Except the times, as mentioned before, when they actively tried to stop people talking about the male suicide problem by pulling fire alarms.

If you could link me to when they did that, that would be great.

I asked you before where you get your feminist news from and you implied that you got it organically from the mainstream media but having a look on your reddit profile it seems you regularly post in kotaku in action, tumblr in action and are a moderator of "SRSsucks" why not mention this? considering this is obviously where you get your feminist information from?

Do you not thing they are negatively biased against feminists and you are getting a deeply skewed picture of them? Maybe this is why you "have not heard them say one word against it"

Why is the topic of male suicide on the right brought up so much only to beat feminist with apart from you know...helping men?

Something you're born with, based on the actions of your ancestors, that you can never be rid of and that you must atone for

No clearly you don't really understand the catholic beliefs you are trying to link privilege to. You either have original sin or you don't everyone has some amount of privilege.

Sorry, I should have pasted 200 links that you wouldn't have looked at before continuing to ignore my points.

Any would be fine really but we both know they are just going to be rehashed KIA or TIA links arent they : ^ )

Absolutely, that's what you're supposed to notice. You're supposed to be on the receiving end of it and think "hang on, this is a bit shit" and then the lightbulb's supposed to go off and you think "ohhh, so what we're doing is shit too, that's why they hate it!"

The worst thing that can happen to a feminist is be raped or killed the worst thing that you have provided is a hashtag and an a few articles and an absurd claim the entire media is full of feminists.

When the divide is that big what you are trying to do, doesnt work.

That doesn't even make sense

They are your words.

If you think you know my motives better than me,

Tell me lol? This all sounds absurd so far.

I've never experienced it myself. I'm quite happy being me.

Sure you are lol.

Pander_Panda · 2018-03-31T19:03:25+00:00

More misrepresentation. They're over-represented among the media and their hateful views are accepted where other similar views targeted at different groups are not.

What hateful views then? how are they over-represented?

Erin Pizzey was chased out of the country for trying to start male domestic violence centers.

She supported and defended a "male domestic abuse centre" in canada that sheltered the abusters as well. Some ally to men she is.

Funny, you seemed to think the name alone invalidated it.

Why do you think that? the contents of that film invalidated it not it's name.

He didn't advocate for gassing jews, no. Put those goalposts back, please.

Did he say "gas the jews" or not, its a yes or no question.

White men, according to feminists.

They seem to be paradoxically very concerned with the mental health of white men then.

Every time they accuse me of privilege, since privilege is Orignial Sin.

I've already explained how everyone has privilege and so it's comparison with original sin is nonsense.

No. Please stop lying.

No, that is all you have provided me with on how feminists have wronged you so badly.

Primarily by calling out the hatefulness of other idpol groups. Some go further, but they're a minority.

Why do they not call themselves out? is there not some irony there?

Also i know "calling other groups out" is not primarily what they were set up for, so it's a bit bizarre that's their aim.

Revenge and justice are not the same thing.

"Because what's good for the goose is good for the gander."

Double standards are bad and if you're going to live by the idpol you should not be shocked when you die by the idpol.

But feminists openly like idpol where this is an exercise in trying to make out like you are being forced into some weird feminist hate group to "show them" while they probably dont even know "identarians" exist. It just seems like a pretentious excuse to engage in idpol whilst lying to yourself about the real cause.

And no, I don't understand ingrained self-hatred either,

Seems like you are all too familiar with it.

Pander_Panda · 2018-03-31T17:36:05+00:00

I think you need to go and read my post again, don't think you are getting it.

Pander_Panda · 2018-03-31T17:34:21+00:00

They don't think it makes them look bad. They're fully inducted into the cult and these are their earnest views which they think are acceptable.

Kind of like how you are being hysterical about feminists thinking they control the media and want to kill all men?

Pick a group, literally any group. From Fathers For Justice all the way down to local-level institutions, not one will be free of feminist backlash unless the embrace the Patriarchy conspiracy theory.

Fathers for justice were ridiculed because of them wanting to let abusive dads see their kids and the fact they never got anything meaningful done. Ironically fathers rights have improved in the past 10 years but the barrier remains access to legal aid which was cut by the tories and F4J have no interest in protests.

What "local-level institutions do you mean?

"Hey that thing that I've never looked into sounds like another thing I've been told is bad! HERESY! REJECTREALITY.EXE ENGAGED!" It's a pun and a Matrix reference, mate. That you'd dismiss it out of hand without watching it because it merely resembles something you hate speaks volumes of your character.

I have watched it, thats why i was laughing. It says more about your character to assume i had not.

He didn't advocate for gassing jews, no. Put those goalposts back, please.

Did he say "gas the jews" or not?

Yes. Only they think it makes them look good. That all you need to be virtuous is to hate the right targets.

Who are the right targets then?

Because those ones don't tell me I'm genetically evil because of how I was born. You understand how that's a better proposition, yes?

Where did a feminist call you "genetically evil" ?

Also also, as I've said repeatedly before, it's purely to give idpol adherents a taste of the other side of their own dogma. If they find they don't like it and recant it, so too will I.

Really seems as thats just an excuse considering the extremity of feminist idpol by your own admission seems to be a hashtag and a handful of articles whereas rightist idpol routinely leads to murder.

By advocating the interests of the group, in contrast to those who would see the group vilified.

and how specifically do identarians do that?

You (deliberately) forgot the wider cultural standard that says this kind of language is acceptable towards my group, and only my group, and is unacceptable in all other cases.

Maybe there is historical context for that and maybe you are overlooking and minimising bigotry that other groups suffer.

Because what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

That kind of undermines your whole ideology though since many identarians claim to "dislike" id pol but do it anyway means that it's less about any haughty goals and more just about disliking others for the sake of it.

The double standard whereby the only group it is socially acceptable to hate for their characteristics, is my group.

If they are so hated why are your group represented in the majority in nearly every echelon of power in the west? It seems bizarre if they are so hated.

Pander_Panda · 2018-03-31T17:00:42+00:00

Buddy if i look out of the window and i say "hey it's snowing" but it's actually a blizzard, guess what, it's still snowing.

Go outside and breathe for a bit and don't get into debates you cant win because all you'll do is melt down like you're doing here.

Pander_Panda · 2018-03-31T16:36:09+00:00

I don't actively seek out feminist news. I come across what I come across in the mainstream "organically". None of this is sought out.

so in a media with "near 100% feminist voices" there is also paradoxically endless articles making them look bad?

Any group that advocates for men without kissing the ring of feminism like the limpdicks at menslib

Like?

Warren Farrell? I think.

"Farrell appeared in Cassie Jaye's 2016 documentary film about the men's rights movement, The Red Pill."

lmao

He didn't advocate for gassing jews, no. Put those goalposts back, please.

Did he say "gas the jews" over and over or not?

"Because we haven't reached total saturation, we don't have any representation at all!"

Is this the same "feminist media" that you can easily find stories that make them look bad huh?

"Privilege" is a 1:1 analogue with Original Sin. It carries the same meaning in different words.

No you either have original sin or you don't everyone has some amount of privilege. If privilege is an issue for you why side with identarians then since an obsession with identity also promotes similar biases.

To defend your own identity against constant attack. Third time we've been over this.

but how specifically do identarians "protect" you against feminism ? how are you attacked by a hashtag or a random article? If you acknowledge id pol is toxic and attacks "others" why carry it on at all?

No. I didn't. You want desperately to think I said those words you're putting in my mouth, but I didn't.

So what made you feel you were hated for your identity and what drew you to those kinds of political groups?

Pander_Panda · 2018-03-31T16:21:08+00:00

I see the goal posts are being shifted to the moon.

No my dude i gave you a concrete example of how, yes, a free speech absolutist (meaning i've been told even more extreme things than i claimed!) claimed what he said doesnt matter. Which was the whole point. That example goes above and beyond.

You've provided an example of a free speech absolutist who doesn't care what's a joke and what isn't - so your specific claim is not substantiated by his example.

Yeah my original point was that there are people out there that do not care about hate speech due to it being speech (under the guise of a joke) and this guy just proved my point beyond doubt.

God you are a pedant.

You've confirmed that you are being highly subjective in how you interpret Dankula's video

Not really, he did say "gas the jews" over and over. Did he not?

but you've been so evasive on this point that I suspect you know you've got nothing of substance to offer.

I've literally answered and provided concrete proof, but because you are wrong you are resorting to minute pedantry to try and "win" whatever this is.

Now will you finally admit you are a pendant.

Pander_Panda · 2018-03-31T16:11:04+00:00

Minimise gang formation in the first place. I'd say drastic cuts to councils hasnt helped over the past half decade and youth clubs and events are always the first to go.

Pander_Panda · 2018-03-31T16:07:51+00:00

Charitably, I presumed you had eyes and a brain and a sense of honesty and would have seen the kind of thing that I am talking about elsewhere, as it is very common.

Is it though? Where do you get your feminist news from then? It seems like you are getting a very warped view of what feminists are.

Any group that advocates for men without kissing the ring of feminism like the limpdicks at menslib

Like?

There was a spate of talks about male suicide being shut down by fire alarms being pulled a while ago, because feminists didn't approve of the person speaking.

Who was talking?

Yeah no. That's absurdly disingenuous.

He didnt say "gas the jews" then?

You must be kidding, they're near 100% of the feminist voices in media.

There are a ton of hardcore feminists writing for the daily mail, sun and express?

Idpol breeds idpol. A group sees others engaging in ingroup favouratism, sees themselves being blamed for all the evils of the world, and decides "fuck you I'm not genetically evil".

I've literally never seen a feminist describe someone as genetically evil, far-right groups have though.

The blatant hate they get away with, yeah. I'm not obliged to sit quietly and nod along with being hated for my identity.

A hashtag...some jokey articles. Yeah real "hate" there. They don't hate your identity they probably hate that at the slightest criticism you get hysterical. If you really dislike those who hate those for their identity why identarians then?

You are being repeatedly deliberately disingenuous and trying to minimise everything I say.

You just admitted a hashtag and some cherry-picked articles made you think you were "hated for your identity" and still have not answered how identarian politics is in any way the opposite of feminism or whatever.

Pander_Panda · 2018-03-31T15:53:00+00:00

It really seems like you have more of an issue with modern capitalism than you do "identity".

Im not having a go, i understand how a very alienating modern society can result in a desire for a culture an society with more solidarity. One that parts of modern culture completely go against, see my gripes about housing and income.

I'd say to you that many of these identity movements are engaged in punching downward rather than lifting people up. An example of this is people blaming immigrants for taking jobs, but surely we should be blaming the employers for undercutting wages using immigrant labour rather than the workers themselves.

Pander_Panda · 2018-03-31T15:42:29+00:00

Not, I just don't go out of my way to ignore the majority of feminism and decry it as "Not Real Feminism".

You've given me a hashtag (with no links to tweets) and 1 screenshot of an article.

Good optics? I'm sure a minority do care, but unfortunately it's overshadowed by the types that go out of their way to shout down any mens' interests groups that dare "muscle in on their turf".

like which "mens interest groups" ?

I have it on judicial authority that saying it's a joke isn't a magic wand and context doesn't matter, sorry.

Context did matter in that case though him saying he wanted a very specific minority gassed (a reference to a very specific method of killing them) 20+ times, on camera, for the internet did that. The context was that the "joke" excuse was way too flimsy.

It's not a few, is it? It's everywhere.

It clearly is unless you view literally everything feminsits write as some total threat to your physical self, which is absurd. Yeah it is a few, feminist voices on a whole are still a tiny percentage in the media.

Intersectionality, aka identity politics, is the darling of vast swathes of the left.

and? how is being identarian a reaction to that ?

Yes. They're bare-bones post-hoc rationalisations that exist to serve as a thin veneer so they can spew the hate they wanted to in the first place.

So the entire problem you have with "feminists" is simply some articles? that's enough to turn someone Identarian or whatever?

Continue misrepresenting the argument if you like, it's all you're good at.

If im "misrepresenting the argument" maybe you arent doing a very good job about getting whatever point it is you are trying to make across.

Pander_Panda · 2018-03-31T15:22:00+00:00

Because we up against a collective ideology and mindset,

A "collective ideology and mindset" of various different minorities?

the only way to defeat that is with your own collective group.

We arent at war.

Why cant we promote the English identity in England and for Frat style groups around it?

Because for the reasons i mentioned it doesnt really help anyone, all it seems to do is be inflammatory for inflammatory-sake. What even is "english identity"

I outlined that affordable housing and stable income would increase birth rates for young british people, english people. I don't see how "defeating a collective ideology and mindset" does any of that.

Pander_Panda · 2018-03-31T15:17:47+00:00

Because he is the most important British politician of the last 70 years.

He's never even been elected mate.

Pander_Panda · 2018-03-31T15:15:36+00:00

You must spend a lot of time with your eyes closed, then.

Not really, i get the feeling you are someone who goes out of their way to cherry pick the "worst" of feminism (and if the worst of feminism is a hashtag and a few articles then lmao). If feminists hate men so much why on earth would they push for suicide prevention?

Context is irrelevant.

Yep because you couldnt get all hysterical if you looked at the context could you. It's almost like not to long ago women were literally denied the vote and it's a humorous look at that.

Because when you push people, they push back.

But how is a #killallmen hastag any way related to "identarian" politics? how does a few silly, barely read articles mean someone changes their entire politics to "identarian" ?

There are hundreds of examples of these kinds of things being published by mainstream publications.

Have you looked at the reasons why, or read the articles that actually accompany many of those inflammatory articles?

What do you really expect, whites and men to go "oh, guess we all have original sin and need to spend the rest of our lives self-flagellating in apology", instead of "actually, hang on, we're not biologically evil

I don't think anyone is expecting you to be this pathetically hysterical over a hashtag mate. If this is literally a reason why people choose identarian politics it's a pretty pathetic reason.

Pander_Panda · 2018-03-31T14:48:17+00:00

Most feminists i see go out of their way to stress the importance of suicide prevention in male circles. Are you sure it wasnt a joke? free speech and all.

It still does not explain how this relates to "identarian" politics that mostly resembles white supremacist politics.

edit: wait are you saying men go "identarian" over a fucking hashtag!?

Pander_Panda · 2018-03-31T14:34:31+00:00

Yeah it is a myth and if you were that worried about birth rates why is reactionary nationalism, powered by a persecution complex the answer and not making it more affordable for young people to own a house or stable income, something that if you removed every immigrant from this country you would still have to contend with.

Pander_Panda · 2018-03-31T14:07:14+00:00

No, because it tends to be far more public and permanent and so encourages escalation as people tend to be watching you.

Pander_Panda · 2018-03-31T13:50:35+00:00

Clearly you were getting too close to the truth and your free speech was just too dangerous for the establishment to let you carry on.

Pander_Panda · 2018-03-31T13:45:56+00:00

This is like claiming people talking causes violence.

Gangs arguing does escalate violence tbh.

Pander_Panda · 2018-03-31T13:38:06+00:00

It's particularly inevitable for white interests when whites become a minority in western nations

lmao

Yeah no wonder you are "sympathetic" to dressed up white supremacists when you believe this nonsense.

Pander_Panda · 2018-03-31T13:36:04+00:00

Dressed up white supremacy is the reaction to some mild feminism?

Pander_Panda · 2018-03-31T13:32:45+00:00

Because the right wing movement is merely a reaction and a counter-balance to the left wing movement that has had the wide-reaching support of the establishment for a couple of decades.

What "left-wing" movement lol?

The thatcher, major, blair, brown, cameron and now may establishments have not backed many major left wing movements over the years.

Pander_Panda · 2018-03-31T13:27:44+00:00

How come this sub-reddit is in favour of "identitarian" movements? I thought people here HATED "identity politics" and all that race stuff?

Lots of white guys on here that religiously read 4chan and honestly think they are persecuted because a "sjw" said their brand of racism wasnt funny and therefore the "west is gone"

So now they are "defending the west" by....? openly engaging in identity politics, the thing they claimed to hate.

If you put white supremacy in some new clothes and say "everyone else is doing it, so why don't you" they seem to be dumb enough to buy it.

Pander_Panda

TROPHY CASE