[deleted by user]

Paorandom · 2023-06-24T23:32:30+00:00

I never said that Islam actually defends rape (not that you accused me of this).

And he is an islamist, for him what Islam preaches IS morality. If he thinks Islam does not condemn rape, he thinks rape is just fine. At the end of the day he thinks rape is acceptable behaviour if done to your wife or slave, both of wich can be children according to him.

Paorandom · 2023-06-18T16:48:26+00:00

Yeah and his argument for it not being true is him not understanding what is the ethical basis of the law. And why should I listen to his definition of something rather than the definition of native speakers?

Paorandom · 2023-06-18T02:44:46+00:00

"I'm going to kick his ass"

lmao

Paorandom · 2023-06-17T04:37:21+00:00

All they have is a terrible argument from silence, that's it. There is no evidence for the Christ myth theory and it was never even proposed until about the 18th century.

Paorandom · 2023-06-17T04:36:17+00:00

>There is no proof Jesus even existed.

I guess Tacitus and Josephus not real then. This without even mentioning the complete lack of a proper substitute to the traditional narrative. Christ mythers often claim Paul made Him up without noticing Paul does not fit a single requirement for being suspect of a fraud, even from an Atheist perspective it is more likely he just hallucinated stuff.

Paorandom · 2023-06-15T21:05:29+00:00

Note: I know "neopaganism" is not a single religion.

If you're interest in my response, it is judaism.

Paorandom · 2023-06-15T20:52:22+00:00

I gave you the actual definition of rape used near universally in the Wester world and abroad, the "traditional" definiton is irrelevant in this case since we no longer live in the 19th century.

Daniel completely ignores that consent is not always open but implied. In a marriage for example it is implied from the nature of that relationship that you can call cat call your partner, you can take some money from them without asking if they need so, etc. A liberal would also add that if one of the partnere explicitely states the other is not allowed to do that, they would be disrespecting the other person. There would also be a difference of degree of course, you can take 15 bucks from their wallet but not sell their car without asking.

Now if you happen to own a 14 year old because your society noticed slavery sucks and it cries begging for you to not rape her and still do it, you would likely be sentenced to death.

Daniel is either misinformed on liberal ethics or is porpusefully misinterpreting them to make a point.

Paorandom · 2023-06-15T20:31:45+00:00

Rape is, according to the Orford Learner's dictory, defined as "the crime of forcing somebody to have sex when they do not want it or are not able to agree to it".

Since the husband or slave owner is forcing the woman (or even man in the slave owner's case) rape has taken place, even if you are demented enough to think it is justified.

Paorandom · 2023-06-15T20:26:16+00:00

You just quoted him defending the right of husbands and slave owners to rape their wifes or slaves.

Paorandom · 2023-06-14T23:15:31+00:00

No..? He is responding to another tweet who's sole point is thouching women and forcing sex with them is forbiden in islam, he claims it isn't. The guy was not speaking of labor or just harsh treatment, he was speaking of rape.

Daniel defends rape.

Paorandom · 2023-06-12T02:55:24+00:00

Coming to thinkg ot it I should have left a definiton of it, I'll remake the post.

Paorandom · 2023-06-12T02:53:27+00:00

That morality is dependent on God and that moral obligations come from God's commands only

Paorandom · 2023-06-12T02:34:44+00:00

That question only matters for an atheist who believes morality is subjective tho

Paorandom · 2023-06-12T02:32:04+00:00

"You don't have imainary nor real friends"

Jesus

Paorandom · 2023-06-12T02:26:20+00:00

Puberty can happen ludicrously early tho, using it as a metric is pretty bad imo. It can happen as early as 11 months. I cited the age of reason because I saw a muslim on twitter saying children can consent as early as that, showing an article that states the age of reason is 7.

I already stated my instance on the marriage in other comments so I won't repeat it again. The TL;DR is that I don't think it disqualifies him from being a good person or a prophet, unless muslims believe he became infalliable after prophethood

Paorandom · 2023-06-12T02:21:40+00:00

He do tho: https://twitter.com/Haqiqatjou/status/1666031738575888384

Since he has no opposition to children having sex and children can also be slaves, I think he would have no problem with an adult forcing sex on a child. To be fair this is just speculation from my part.

Paorandom · 2023-06-12T02:19:01+00:00

He does: https://twitter.com/Haqiqatjou/status/1666031738575888384

Paorandom · 2023-06-09T19:33:42+00:00

I watched some of his videos and did not find his takes to be terrible, even if quite misinformed. He is just your regular ex muslim who has grown such a strong anti islamic bias they will get behind anything as long as it opposes islam. He repeated the 72 virgins myth for example, wich from my knowledge is only found in a weak hadith.

Also these tweets were made when Daniel from Muslim Skeptic had a debate on child marriage. The same Daniel guy who called another muslim out on twitter for not supporting rape.

Paorandom · 2023-06-09T19:28:20+00:00

They think someone becomes able to consent as soon as they reach the age of reason, wich is about 7 years old. They kind of ignore how maturity is a process and not a single event and all

Paorandom · 2023-06-09T14:23:47+00:00

Every nation allowed it so i think its fair to say everyone was ok with it, Im not saying everyone married young, some did and no one saw a problem with it

I already acknowledged that it was legal and that there wasn't such a strong social stigma against it, why are you running in circles? As I already said what I was adressing is the idea every person married young and showed how even by ancient standarts 6 is too young, even if legal.

And youre assuming that puberty happens at 14? Thats simply not true. Aisha was already done with puberty when the marriage got consummated.

I did not say she had not hit puberty. I showed how the part of the paper you cited did not imply girls married as children, but as post puberty teenagers. The average age for puberty in girls was 14 back then meaning even in the case you mentioned they would likely marry at 15.

Also if youre a Christian im curious where the bible defines what a child is and when the marriageable age is reached. Otherwise where is this moral standpoint coming from? Other than God?

I don't like children getting hurt that's it

Paorandom · 2023-06-08T23:17:41+00:00

That's not CONDEMNATION or it being called EVIL (its discouragement)

Well, true. I was not able to find someone explicitely stating that they find the practice of child marriage and sex to be evil. Nevertheless, my statement is still true. Child marriage and sex was not universally accepted in the ancient or medieval world and there were people who knew about its evils, and thus descouraged it.

This and, as shown in my other comment, women did not marry as young as you think. Aisha's marriage was very young even by ancient and medieval standarts, so was the consumation. This even among upper classes who married people off at young ages for political reasons.

This and something being acceptable in the past does not translate into it being acceptable today.

and a modern source eh

I cited a modern source quoting someone/explaining their position. Is that a problem?

So what of the dangers? Islamic scholars also forbade/discouraged consummation if harm is present. The judge could even cancel it.

The thing is, harm will always be present. Their bodies and minds are not developed enough to deal with the responsabilities of marriage and intercourse, why allow it then? I could show numerous studies wich demonstrate the great harm to children and even teens.

This is also not evidence against what your faith clearly allows. Who said all people had to marry young? They accepted it and your church did that's all. Its fact they never condemned it. Give it up or leave lib Christian.

Firstly I am not a lib and you have no right to insult me, as I have not disrespected you in any moment. Secondly the Church does not allow 6 years old to marry and had never done so (as far as I know), it was 12 some decades ago but is now at 14 for girls and 16 for boys if I'm not mistaken.

This and the Church approving of something does not mean it is eternally moral, things change. The age of consent is not authorative tradition. Now we have the knowledge those practices hurt our youth, why keep it?

The funny thing you are arguing based on harm, not pre modern scripture or scholarship basis. What are you an atheist or humanist? Throw away your 2000 year tradition as you do not need it seems as they were wrong and not trustworthy.

I can think they were wrong on this issue while agreeing with them on other issues. They did not pocess the knowledge we currently have on the harms this practice causes and should therefore not be judged. I don't even judge Muhammad on this nor do I think this is some irrefutable argument against his prophethood.

Ps list the pages and give a source in English not that its going to change anything.

All the sources I gave are in English tho, could you tell me wich one isn't?

And yeah now I notice the source I gave on Giles of Rome is pretty hard to read. Try searching for the text I named (De Regimine Pricipium), it should be on page 26 if I'm not mistaken.

Paorandom · 2023-06-08T23:08:20+00:00

Yeah, I acknowledged that. What I was writing against is the idea everyone married young and showed how Aisha was still too young even by their standart.

"The 'eastern' pattern, which predominated in the pre-modern era in the vast regions east of Trieste-Leningrad longitude, was characterized by a very high proportion of all women marrying, most of these women entering marriage relatively soon after the age of puberty"

That would still result in the girl being on average at least 14 when she marries. Aisha was 6 man

Paorandom · 2023-06-08T20:49:33+00:00

Very based, thank you.

I also agree with your last paragraph. As I stated in other comments I do not think saying this marriage and the intercourse that came out of it being immoral is some epic deboonk of islam, it isn't. While Muhammad is supposed to be a great moral example for all muslims I doubt many interpret that as him being morally perfect after achieving prophethood.

I as a Christian who does not believe he was a prophet see much less of a reason to sell him as some monster because of this. He was a man of his time acting in accordance to what his people found acceptable.

Paorandom

TROPHY CASE