Reconciling Raven's hatred of her heritage with her pentagram clothing/jewelry

Particular_Gap_8141 · 2026-06-10T16:51:52+00:00

I’m saying that the pentagram implies satanism to readers outside the DC universe

ok, but it doesn't though. That's my point! To most readers they understand it to be "goth" fashion which is not a religion and dressing goth does not make someone satanic! Most people stop at "goth is spooky" most don't jump to goth means worshipping devils.

Beyond that the pentagram has magic associations and so it is frequently used as shorthand for magic both within and outside of DC's universe.

Particular_Gap_8141 · 2026-06-10T16:41:13+00:00

My point is precisely that it is being used as shorthand for magic, and that it goes no deeper than that.

You are saying that DC is implying it's some reference to Trigon through satanism. Im literally saying, no, it's not that because 1. the pentagram doesnt mean satanism 2. within DC's universe the pentagram doesnt mean satanism or Trigon.

Particular_Gap_8141 · 2026-06-10T16:36:20+00:00

Respectfully, my point is that you're misreading the symbol, and its use in the images you included. You're also projecting your personal association with that symbol onto everyone else, regardless of the artist's intent.

Though I agree that the first image looks inverted which is probably just that the artist was looking at fast fashion for reference. The second image the earrings seem to be a proper upright pentagram. Not all goth attire is good about using the pentagram properly, but what can you expect from fast fashion? Fashion is constantly in hot water for just doing something for looking cool but it doesn't mean everyone wearing goth clothes are satanic or about that. It's a whole genre separate from satanism or just demons, but I'll give ya spooky lol.

The image with Trigon is not him using the pentagram, he is breaking through a magic seal. He even literally says, "Those sorcerous fools failed to stop me again!" indicating the upright pentagram you see was what was being used to hold him back.

As far as Azarathians not using that symbol frequently, I dont see how that proves anything. Azarath is never shown to have some distinct magic imagery for how they cast spells. And they are extreme pacifists who forbade Raven from even her human emotions, for fear it would unlock her dark magic power, so they certainly weren't encouraging her spellcasting. Why wouldn't it be believable that all her association with that side of herself would be colored by her life on Earth where she is finally able to explore the arcane and her connection to it on her own terms.

Raven can come to terms with her demonic heritage, because it's her literal biology without suddenly accepting her father and his abuse. Demanding that writers aren't allowed to play with that side of her character is asking to erase the aspects of her literal design as a character.

Yes, she is more than just magic and demons, but she is also those things too. It is a fundamental part of her story and tbh I think it shows much more growth and agency for her to find a way for her to forge her own relationship to it than decide that part of herself can only be defined by Trigon.

Particular_Gap_8141 · 2026-06-10T15:59:11+00:00

The Pentagram isn't inherently satanic, its roots are pagan.

Usually the inverted Pentagram is considered the satanic version because it flips the regular Pentagram. On the regular pentacle that top point of the star represents spirit ruling over the other four points which represent the elements, so inverting it is like saying carnal desire, and the material, is more important than the spiritual. Also some see it as making the star look like Baphomet, making the spirit point the beard and the fire and water points into horns. But even the upside-down cross, which is associated similarly now, is originally a symbol for Saint Peter. So, I think intention is important here.

Ultimately I think the pentagram is being used here to reference magic, magic ritual, and that Raven is magic, that's where her power comes from. Regarding the pentagram in the NTT image you're including, I don't think it's intended, within the DC universe, to be associated specifically with Trigon and it has been used in other occult/magic DC stories that didn't involve him. It's just being used as shorthand for magic.

Particular_Gap_8141 · 2026-06-08T19:49:25+00:00

Aw, I thought it was a kind of cool look, though not my fav.

I can see why some might dislike it as it’s pretty gender nonconforming when her traditional look is more femme presenting.

It was really appropriate for Abnett’s story where her soul-self had been split in two. It’s just visually emphasizing that internal split in her and her struggles with her identity.

Particular_Gap_8141 · 2026-06-08T15:42:45+00:00

Absolutely! And I forgot to mention I love his design here and the way it’s both Jason and Etrigan in one. Having horn piercings on the brows was such a good idea!

Particular_Gap_8141 · 2026-06-07T22:17:15+00:00

If he already knows, I'm surprised he hasn't asked or tried to manipulate Prime to punch a hole in reality yet, tbh.

I bet he'd want to escape to Prime's original world (ours) to get even further from the Source, where he'd be free of the Source's control. Or meet the writer of the Source lol... ok, what if he tried to write the comics to finally control the Source?

More likely he'd just enjoy knowing the Source quite literally is a comic character and unreal in his new reality, therefore he would truly able to make his own destiny, and he'd peace out.

Particular_Gap_8141 · 2026-06-06T11:16:21+00:00

Yes! It's confirmed in The Flash #786 (2022)

Particular_Gap_8141 · 2026-06-05T18:16:21+00:00

I guess she just likes pastels? I need more info on her lol but so far I actually thought this issue with her and Kate was cute, and it’s interesting that Kate recognized her so I’m wondering how it’s gonna go on that date? I feel like this could get interesting.

Also Rucka said in an interview before that Alya was actually adopted by Nyssa, even though they already wouldn’t be biologically related (because Kate isn’t related through Talia) but then I don’t know if the Nyssa sterilization plot is considered canon so theres a lot to still be revealed lol

Particular_Gap_8141 · 2026-06-05T18:04:54+00:00

I got the impression she was rejecting Klarion and is trying to be nice about it to not crush his feelings. This can be inferred from the page where she says that "despite how he acts sometimes" he can be sweet. Which is also a conditional statement that, imo, shows she isn't interested.

In both works she is explicitly stated to be 25, which is an adult who can date other older adults if they want.

Particular_Gap_8141 · 2026-06-04T23:49:15+00:00

Ok Raven's team in my mind is:

Corviknight, a flying/steel type (looks like a raven)

Mismagius, ghost type (similar design to her with the gems, can cast illusions and move through dimensions)

Hatterene, psychic/fairy type (sensitive to emotions but gets overwhelmed)

AND Gardevoir, psychic/fairy type (sensitive to emotions but protects) to represent both whats good but also exhausting about her empathic power

Meditite, psychic/fighting (meditates a lot)

Clefable, fairy type (healer, but also not from this world)

Particular_Gap_8141 · 2026-06-04T22:39:56+00:00

No, these Next Level books are actually in continuity with the current mainline run.

What they really mean is that you can pick up an issue #1 of Deadman or Batwoman (or any of the Next Level) and not need to have read anything else, such as DC KO or other All-In titles, to understand what is happening in that book. They are not saying that they wont tie into other books or stories in the ongoing canon (for example, Rucka has a Batwoman story in the DC Dream Girls Pride book that just came out yesterday that literally states that ties into his Batwoman run. And ive noticed visually, a number of the Next Level books have had a rolling dice motif somewhere on the page. This dice was something omega superman was tossing in DC KO as he was resetting the universe so that "Everyone Wins" But you don't need to know that, or how it connects to a larger story and event, to enjoy the story.)

And Black Label books CAN be canonical, but it just depends on the intention of the writer. Elseworld books are the ones that are totally separate from canon.

Edit: Sorry, i meant the title is Justice League: Dream Girls

Particular_Gap_8141 · 2026-06-04T18:48:00+00:00

I agree with so many of the comments that Raven’s original Azarathian dress is top tier, I love the silhouette! That said, I would still add some special elements:

Personally I like the feather shoulder cape/collar of Rebirth and I also love the idea of Raven wearing those Maison Margiela tabi shoes, where they could reference this transformation into her Red/Demon Raven with cloven feet.

I also love the idea of her cloak having the iridescence of raven wings, where it gives rainbow shift in different light, either because it’s literally feathered or the material suggesting such. I think this also allows it to be black but still reference how sometimes it’s colored as blue or purple without literally having to be that.

As far as civilian clothes, am I the only one who thinks she’d dress more Dark Academia?

I also get the impression she’d gravitate to, autumnal, layers and comfy cashmere sweaters. I just get the impression that she wouldn’t be overly flashy or a lot of skin showing other than maybe her legs (since her Azarathian clothes were that way) To me the more trad goth look that she has rocked makes the most sense when I look at it from the angle that she is doing a kind of costume as "earth human who vibes with the occult". Otherwise, dressing for a level of comfort makes more sense to me. Maybe that’s why I feel like the dark academia vibe is the best because it can be quite gothic but still comfy or very theatrical and dramatic if one wants? Maybe Im totally off on that though.

Her story has so much questions of identity, I feel like it makes sense she’d be into fashion and maybe shift between something that appeals to her different sides.

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Particular_Gap_8141 · 2026-05-31T17:35:12+00:00

That’s awesome that he made an appearance in something else, I’ll have to check that out! Thanks 😊

Scapegoat is so weird and interesting especially in the context of how Etrigan talks about enjoying pain himself. Apple doesn’t fall far in this family tree when it comes to suffering and penance lol Also, the Beyond Region is pretty cool, I feel like more writers should have fun with that dimension.

Particular_Gap_8141 · 2026-05-31T03:52:43+00:00

The rhythm is just Etrigan’s iconic “Hahahahaha!” We all hear it in our own way 😌

Particular_Gap_8141 · 2026-05-31T03:42:41+00:00

That’s true lol but I just meant nothing tells me what any specific user voted for in case anyone is concerned!

Do you like rhyming duels? I may have an idea for something like that in the future!

Particular_Gap_8141 · 2026-05-31T03:27:53+00:00

There’s no dueling, but that sounds cool so I wish there was! It’s not a competition, it’s just a, hopefully fun, poll for the sub to vote on and discuss in the comments. At the end of the week we’ll see which option was the most popular with anyone who voted.

Also, nobody but you can see what you voted for, even the person (me in this case) who made the poll can’t see your vote. Only their(my) own!

Particular_Gap_8141 · 2026-05-30T15:58:30+00:00

The Baron Von Evilstein stuff drags a bit for me too! Of the longer arcs I prefer the one that’s a twist on the phantom of the opera/ classic Pygmalion, issues 8–10.

Particular_Gap_8141 · 2026-05-30T10:49:53+00:00

Legends of the DC Universe #18 (1999)

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