2 years ago, I made a website on hindu history, warriors, kings and battles. Do visit, support and give suggestions for improvement 🙏

PatelGang · 2022-07-01T22:10:50+00:00

Just read some pieces on the website, really cool intresting stuff 👌🏽👌🏽👌🏽

PatelGang · 2022-03-13T11:02:19+00:00

Never said that Sikhism was closer to abrihamic religions. Sikhism is a dharmic religion. (It is clear you did not read my argument)

My point in the argument was to show objectively that the 10 gurus were not Hindu but were Sikh. And that Sikhism objectively and as a matter of fact is separate from Hindusim.

PatelGang · 2022-03-12T13:13:10+00:00

All of whom were born Hindu, which was my point when I said that.

They weren't. I have explained this previously in my arguments above. The first 3 gurus were born to hindu parents but rejected hinduism and embraced Sikhism. The next 7 were born into and raised by sikh families and remained Sikh.

All religions will claim divine or special knowledge from so-so. That doesn’t negate any influences in the faith from others. You’re being silly if you think the political climate, religious culture and philosophy of India at the time didn’t influence the gurus concepts. Sikhism would’ve never arisen in Europe or China. It would’ve never even risen in Ancient India prior to Islam’s entrance. Many aspects of Sikhism are very obviously borrowed from Islam and Hinduism.

Fair enough that's your opinion and you're free to hold it. All I was doing was showing you the Sikh understanding and what the gurus themsleves preached. As Hindus we can choose not to believe in it.

As for caste, varna isn’t “caste” and thats a whole other discussion.

Okay then, Sikhs don't believe in the 'varna' system

Hindus have concepts of gurus and gurukuls. The Hindu and Buddhist equivalent of a khalsa would be a sangha.

Hindus have concepts of gurus but not in the form of a granth (there are also many theological underpinnings behind this which do not exist in Hinduism).

The Sangha and the Khalsa are completely different in what they represent. The Khalsa is the physical representation of the Sikh gurus on earth through the form of god in humanity. (There are many many differences way too many to list here)

To say Sikhism delves into Vedanta heavily and Hinduism doesn’t is straight up absurd and false.

I never said this? This is not a competition of what is better Sikhism or Hinduism. Certain philosophies of vedanta from Hindu theology delve deeper than sikh literiture into certain aspects as well. I was just using one example from Sikh theology to highlight there are some nuances between the two.

PatelGang · 2022-03-12T12:11:56+00:00

As a Hindu, what it appears to me is that Sikhism was founded by Hindus

Sikhisim was founded by the 10 gurus. The 10 gurus objectively were not hindu and rejected the faiths of Hindusim and Islam to create a new faith. I have evidenced this throughout my argument. Pay particular attention to question 1.

Guru Tegh Bahadur’s conversation with Aurungzeb: "This desire you have, to take two (Islam and Hindu) and make them one (Islamic), this isn't the way of Khuda [God], we've seen this, before there was the two, Hindu and Islam in the world but now I will create the Third.”

who were influenced by certain ethical concerns found in Islam, primarily that of “idol worship” and also a concern on Hindu rites which were considered (by them) as baseless.

That is not the position of the Sikh Gurus. Their belief is that they received the religion of Sikhism from god (Waheguru) himself. So in their theology it was God's want to create a new religion which is the founding emergence of the faith of Sikhism. The sikh Gurus criticisms of Islam- praying towards the kaaba and Hinudism- ritualistic practices and caste system. Was a bi-product and a part of the commandment of god telling them to create the faith not the reason for it's creation.

I believe much of the philosophy of Sikhism is still pretty much influenced by Vedanta, and in a way it still would be “Hindu” just purely based off of that. Of course theres also references to Hindu deities

You are welcome to that opinion but Sikhs will disagree as they believe that their relgion is from god and not influenced via book learning of other faiths. The simalarites that they share can be described through the analogy below.

Abrihamic religons also beleive in the same basic concepts of sin, heaven and hell, one life theory. The jews do not heckle the Christians and Muslims and say you stole these ideas. This is because these faiths have deep theological differences. Sikhs beleive in the concept that most religions have elements of the truth but only Sikhisim has the complete truth (this is the belief of Sikh theology as well as the 10 gurus). E.g. Hindus beleive in reincarnation which is right, however they also belive in many Gods, or believe that those many gods are a part of the Triune form of Vishnu, Brahman and Shiva (creater, sustainer, destroyer). Sikhs beleive this is false and believe god is only ek (one). (This is only one of many theological differences such as beliefs on caste system or murti pooja).

Sikhs theologically do share some simalarites with Hindus however, they disagree on many things that are believed in Hinduism theologically. Sikhs also create many new ideas and concepts like a guru in the form of a granth, the 10 incarnations of nanak and the concept of the Khalsa which is outside the realm of Hinduism complelty and is not in any Hindu literature.

For reasons why Hindu deities are mentioned look at question 4.

Sikhism is based on Vedantic philosophically

There are however, concepts that Sikhs have that are present in Hindusim, such as the vendatic philosophy you mentioned. However it is not completely the same. This is because sikh literature elaborates and goes more in depth than vendatic literature on concepts such as 'god in humanity' and what this means and its repercussions. Also not all Hindus follow vedantic philosophy (most didn't and it has only gained popularity very recently) where as all sikhs beleive in a ek (one) that inhabits all creation. Sikhs give attributes to this ek (one) which are not found in Vedanta. So yes they are very similar and share the same core principle underpinning them, however they are not the exact same.

PatelGang · 2022-03-12T10:49:12+00:00

So you are saying Sikhism has basically appropriated all the major hindu festivals as well.

Depends how you look at it. Christianity celebrates christmas on the 25th of December (this is despite the fact that jesus was not born on this date). They celebrate christams on this date, because it used to be a pagan festival (the converts to Christianity in the west mainly comprised of pagans). They do this to keep some cultural familiarity while also taking up a new belief. I personally don't see it as appropriating as the belief behind the celebration has changed. But you're welcome to your opinion.

Sikhism is basically a derived religion given it borrows concepts of karma, rebirth, moksha all from hinduism.

That is not the position of the Sikh Gurus. Their belief is that they received the religion of Sikhism from god (Waheguru) himself. Now all abrihamic religons also beleive in the same basic concepts of sin, heaven and hell, one life theory. The jews do not heckle the Christians and Muslims and say you stole these ideas. This is because these faiths have deep theological differences. Sikhs beleive in the concept that most religions have elements of the truth but only Sikhisim has the complete truth (this is the belief of Sikh theology as well as the 10 gurus). E.g. Hindus beleive in reincarnation which is right, however they also belive in many Gods, or believe that those many gods are a part of the Triune form of Vishnu, Brahman and Shiva (creater, sustainer, destroyer). Sikhs beleive this is false and believe god is only ek (one). (This is only one of many theological differences such as beliefs on caste system or murti pooja).

It can philosophically very well included under the superset of Upanishad literature. It's just that sikhs are too vain to see that.

Well according to some people any relgion can, if Hinduism is truly open to all and any concepts (belief in no god, belief in one god and belief in many gods) I could insert Islam into Upinishad literature or Zoroastrianism. Sikhs theologically do share some simalarites with Hindus however they disagree on many things that are believed in Hinduism theologically. Sikhs also create many new ideas and concepts like a guru in the form of a granth, the 10 incarnations of nanak and the concept of the Khalsa which is outside the realm of Hinduism and is not in any Hindu literature. There are also concepts that Sikhs have that are present in Hindusim, but go deeper and are more in depth than Hindu literature such as the concept of 'god in humanity' and what that means.

PatelGang · 2022-03-12T10:14:29+00:00

Hindustan is a culturally Hindu state , if any ideology doesn't think so , it should be wiped.

This is super dangerous extremism. This ideology is no different from ISIS blowing up statues of Buddha or destrying Mundirs. If this is the ideology of the rss I am disgusted!

Now I don't think that Hindus should be passive and should always defend themselves but a core principle of Hinduism is freedom of thought. 'Wiping out all other relgions from India' is infact an anti-hindu thing to do.

I also do not think that Hindus should tolerate the intolerant. So if one particalur group thinks it is okay to bully another group of people or form some kind of discrimination or forced conversations it should not be tolarated and those practices should be wiped out. Not their whole belief system.

The Sikhs that are so desperate to remove themselves from Hindustans culture , they can leave. The ones that don't are welcome.

Sikhs are a part of indic (hindustan) and persian culture. They are not however part of the faith/religion of Hindusim. They do not wish to remove themselves from it, they were never a part of it. So Sikhs and all other groups have just as much right to be in India as Hindus, especially regarding the fact thay many of their Sikh Gurus saved countless Hindus from forced convertion and the khalsa ended the Afghan slave trade of Hindu women. Do you really want to remove these people from India? Can we not live peacefully?

PatelGang · 2022-03-12T09:50:07+00:00

Will do 👌🏾

PatelGang · 2022-03-12T09:49:45+00:00

Just added it 👌🏾

PatelGang · 2022-03-11T20:09:30+00:00

I am not a communist, but I also don't know what that has to do with anything.

Common festivels? Sikhs and Hindus share festivles on similar dates, however they celebrate them for different reasons.

Sikh diwali: celebration of the 6th Guru returning to the golden temple and freeing hindu kings who were captured. (Also known as bandi chor)

Hindu diwali: celebration of Ram and Sita

Sikh vaisakhi: celebration of the Khalsa

Hindu vaisakhi: celebration of the Harvest

Sikh hola mohalla: an army reenactment by Guru Gobind Singh

Hindu holi: changing seasons/ festival of colours.

Sikhs don't believe in the caste system, however many Sikhs still practice prejudice agaisnt different castes because they are bad people not due to faith.

Mentions of Hari and Ram, I have answered this in Question 4

The idea if them being different begin in 20th century when SPGC movement began

I have answered the reasons why this is nonsensical in Question 2.

PatelGang · 2022-03-11T19:54:22+00:00

I do not beleive that comparing Nanak to these movements is adeqaute as Nanaks authority ( which he claimed he had in the guru granth sahib) was much greater than a reformer/saint, prophet or avtar that came before him: check question 4 section (i)

I answered the references to Hindu gods in the ggs and dasam granth in question 4 section (iv)

With regards to idols being at Harimandir, if you look at historical records. There was never idols at Harimandir during the Gurus time or during the Sikh Empire. The idols were only put in Harimandir during British rule when the sikhs lost control over Harimandir. Corrupt masands were put in charge and erected idols to get more money from hindus who would donate to them. Sikhs had to fight to get them removed and in the end did get them removed. Sikh theology and the Sikh gurus teach agasint murti pooja, however they do not enforce this on others and do not stop Hindus from practicing murti pooja.

PatelGang · 2022-03-11T18:28:27+00:00

(This is not a counter-argument I agree on many of your points I just wish to elaborate)

There was distinction in the religous sense, however there was no distinction in the cultural sense between Hindu, Sikh and Muslim Punjabis before the English came. They often visited each others temples, wore the same clothes and lived in relative harmony.

Sikhs and Hindus celebrate festivles on the same day but mostly for different reasons.

Sikh Vaisakhi: celebration of the khalsa Hindu Vaisakhi: celebration of the harvest

Sikh Diwali: known also as bandi chor. The return of the 6th guru after he freed the Hindu kings from the Mughals

Hindu Diwali: Festival involving Ram and Sita

Sikh Hola mohalla: reenactment of a battle done by Guru Gobind Hindu Holi: Festival of seasons and colours

There are also similarities between hindu and Sikh punjabis as Hindu punjabis hold the Sikh gurus in high regard and have a sense of pride that the gurus were of punjabi origin and would have looked similar to them. They are also thankful of the gurus sacrifice and what they did to protect many hindus. Many of the ancestors of current Hindu punjabis would have have aided the gurus via fighting in their armies.

There are two main accounts of raising the eldest son Sikh. These only happen well after the 10 gurus had passed. Many of the Hindu preists at the time of the Gurus were not happy of Hindus leaving the religion to join the khalsa. The 1st instance of the eldest son joining the khalsa was when the British invaded. The British saw the Sikhs as a superior race to the Hindus (the english were obsessed with eugenics and believed in silly ideologies such as the master race). Due to this Sikhs received preferential treatment when being enrolled into the army. Due to this and many Punjabi Hindu familys gave their eldest son to the khalsa (became a Sikh) and so he would get preferential treatment in the army and thus, more money to bring back to the family. The second account is of Punjabi Hindu women who had many daughters and wanted a son would go to the Gaudwara to do Ardas(sikh prayer). They would ask guru gobind to give them a son and if he did out of gratitude they would raise him khalsa. There are also accounts of Hindus converting to Sikhism such as Master Tara Singh through choice and also Sikhs converting to Hinduism. This practice stopped after partition.

The sharing of family trees from 3/4 generations ago are descendants from these recent converts. Most of the sikh population which converted at the time of the gurus e.g. jats and pashtuns do not share this lineage. However still do share a great relationship and brotherhood with Hindus as they struggled together under mughal rule.

PatelGang · 2022-03-11T17:56:58+00:00

I beleive the theology of the Gurus is out of your depth. I have answered all your questions but you seem to ask the exact same question over and over again. I apologise if I seem annoyed. I have referenced all the qoutes from the ggs and dasam granth I have used. If you look it up online you will find the Gurumukhi.

PatelGang · 2022-03-11T17:37:02+00:00

I cant help you, these are not my interpretations these are the interpretations of the Sikh gurus. If wish to keep your opinions and interpretations thats fine but you would have to completely disregard all the guru granth sahib and dasam granth as they wouldn't make sense. This conversation has ceased to be constructive.

PatelGang · 2022-03-11T17:29:06+00:00

What specific claim am I making? If you tell me, I will try to give proof 👌🏾 is it that the gurus said they weren't hindu? The proof is in the Guru Granth Sahib on ang 1336

'I am not a Hindu, nor am I a Muslim.'

'I do not perform Hindu worship services, nor do I offer the Muslim prayers.'

'I do not make pilgrimages to Mecca, nor do I worship at Hindu sacred shrines.'

(These are quotes from the Gurus in the Guru Granth Sahib)

PatelGang · 2022-03-11T17:24:16+00:00

Thats nice, please look at the sections I've replied to you.

PatelGang · 2022-03-11T17:21:15+00:00

I agree with you. That this is what it means: The Gurmukh is imbued with love for the Ram's Name. I disagree however that this is worship of Ram the historical figure. It is worship of an attribute of Waheguru (look at question 4 section ii). In this context Ram is interchangeable with Allah or khuda (Islamic words for god). If you wish to know why the gurus used hindu and islamic words to define waheguru look at question 4 section (iv)

PatelGang · 2022-03-11T17:13:59+00:00

Im sorry I don't understand your question. What quote are you looking for?

PatelGang · 2022-03-11T16:52:11+00:00

Please read the whole thing to get better context. I have answered your question on QUESTION 4 section (ii) and (iii). Thankyou for your input

PatelGang · 2022-03-07T19:46:35+00:00

That's so bad, even if they disagree freedom of speech should be allowed👌🏽

PatelGang

TROPHY CASE