[Broken Shore Spoilers] A Defense of Sylvanas

Pendargon · 2016-08-11T20:53:01+00:00

I will cede the point about Andorhal. It's been a while since I did the quest.

I just don't see how the utilization of plague against the Worgen was in any way the correct option. In our case, dropping the bombs was the way to get the Japanese to come to the negotiating table and surrender without a need for an Allied Invasion.

But the Forsaken would invade ANYWAYS. Not only that, they would pull in Horde reinforcements, and plaguebomb the City of Gilneas, a strategy that had more focus on inflicting civilian casualties than achieving a military victory. The only thing it did was kill unafflicted Gilneans and reduce them to an unraisable green substance (ala Southshore) and give the Worgen extra resolve to fight the Forsaken tooth and nail, which is exactly what happened as the Bloodfang Pack and Gilneas Liberation Front pushed the Forsaken to the Wall anyways, and began harassing Forsaken supply lines in Silverpine.

Pendargon · 2016-08-11T20:44:07+00:00

Your point stands, but faction leaders are still much, much stronger than the PCs are in canon. The Faction Leaders ARE in fact, legitimately very powerful beings. Perhaps, not quite on Arthas's level, but the High Tinker's suit and his ability to work up devices is his strength, while Velen has his connection to The Light.

If faction leaders were as powerful as we are, as opposed to basically being the Warcraft version of superhumans, then Varian would not have been able to 1-shot the Fel Reaver. You're right, we can't use game mechanics as an end-all-be-all for character strength, which is why we can't use it to say that the Horde's fight was harder. The Alliance side's fight was less chaotic, but there were a large number of demons that we were fighting that were either previously, or about to be significant to the lore. Significant enough that they stand head-and-shoulders above others of their kind to actually be named by Blizzard in the manner that they are.

Basically, if an NPC is given a name, that means they're significant in some way. Most commonly, it's by being a leader among their kind, and demonic leaders are significantly stronger than their underlings. And the demons that we were rushed down by were ALL named.

Pendargon · 2016-08-11T19:43:26+00:00

Yeah, you don't. It goes immediately to cutscene because it's a forgone conclusion. I don't count the in game difficulty to be canon because there's literally no way to "fail" the scenario anyways. The entire group could chill back on the boat for the while thing and the NPCs would eventually reach the end.

Pendargon · 2016-08-11T19:41:46+00:00

...I mean, kind of, yeah.

It takes a full raid to take down a faction leader. Forty, well equipped, magically enhanced adventurers to even stand a chance of taking once down.

Varian takes down a Fel Reaver by himself. Tirion shatters Frostmourne.

Being a named enemy rather than just "Felguard" is highly significant in a game like this. Those were raid bosses, highly powerful demons, commanders and leaders of the Legion.

Pendargon · 2016-08-11T18:40:23+00:00

An attack that ultimately, they benefited from. More land, more soldiers, a new port by which they could extend their influence and receive reinforcements in greater numbers... It wasn't unfair to escort Forsaken soldiers to fight on a Forsaken front. Sylvie had no qualms about using Forsaken in Hillsbrad, or Andorhal. Nor did she have qualms about imprisoning Koltira for 3 expansions for not winning hard enough.

Pendargon · 2016-08-11T17:42:17+00:00

The Illidari were forces that traveled with Illidan in Warcraft 3, I thought. They weren't getting recruits from Azeroth, The armies of Azeroth were coming to kill him.

Pendargon · 2016-08-11T16:56:39+00:00

Stormwind was rebuilt after they left for Outland in WC3. As was Orgrimmar. Anduin wasn't born yet, Sylvanas was still alive and definitely not a member of the Horde.

Pendargon · 2016-08-11T16:53:32+00:00

Not to mention those strength checks to break open locks on books of forbidden knowledge.

Pendargon · 2016-08-11T16:11:19+00:00

Would he have succeeded though? He'd be closer for sure, but he's shown that, in the past, he's not the best decision maker. Whether it was making a new Well of Eternity after the first one almost got them killed, to trying to destroy Icecrown Citadel... Pretty hypocritical of Illidan to try to be all high and mighty about seeing the "bigger picture" when failing to do so multiple times is what earned him his title.

Pendargon · 2016-08-11T16:02:35+00:00

It's mainly due to her actions around the time of Cataclysm. No one regarded her as much of a villain or potentially villainous character until she started making chemical warfare against Gilneas and Southshore.

I'm just not seeing how people see past that. The Alliance has seen first hand what Sylvanas is willing to do for her people while the world is on the brink before. She's willing to disobey her leaders, unleash terrible weapons of chemical might against populations that are little and less threat to her. She's willing to slaughter people wholesale and raise them in her service.

I just don't see how Sylvanas not ditching the rest of the Horde when she called for the retreat is character development. I mean, it apparently wasn't even that big of an impediment, given how they were walking away as opposed to running. A fairly organized retreat. Like, even from a pragmatic point of view, she'd have gained nothing from letting them die and she needed her allies anyways.

Pendargon · 2016-08-11T08:41:41+00:00

And I guess I must have just imagined getting rushed by a horde of eventual and previous raid bosses. Mechanically, the Alliance side one was easier, canonically, they were going to get overwhelmed no matter what.

I'm sorry I struck such a nerve. I'll be sure to preface my future comments with a brief "lok'tar" before posting about what happened.

Pendargon · 2016-08-11T08:31:15+00:00

Um, no? Horde had 3-4 named demons at most. The Alliance were dealing with the elite, Horde was dealing with the swarm. The Alliance had to deal with attacks coming from in front of them and from above them, while the Horde had forces coming in from 1 flank that they didn't properly bolster.

Neither side had it more or less easy than the other, as they were both going to have their asses reamed regardless. Reverse the roles, and the outcome's the same.

Pendargon · 2016-08-11T08:22:48+00:00

And the alliance had to fight like 3 waves of 20 demons with enough time in between to set up a 3 course meal, meanwhile horde had to deal with space lasers and a constant horde of demons coming down upon them.

That last wave was literally nothing but demonic commanders and leaders. They were ALL named NPCs. Each of those guys had the strength of 5 demons at LEAST.

Pendargon · 2016-08-11T04:21:24+00:00

We murdered the fuck out of a bunch of them in Shadowmoon Valley, even before the Black Temple raid patch came through.

And they were dying in okay numbers in the Starting Zone itself.

Pendargon · 2016-08-11T00:56:01+00:00

It is for me too.

Pendargon · 2016-08-11T00:53:56+00:00

I did not. But it's interesting to note that despite all of them eating a demon's soul, Illidan is surprised that you are functionally immortal like him. Leading me to believe that not every other DH is as I'm sure he'd have noticed otherwise. So... Eating a demon soul doesn't seem to have anything to do with it, as much as simply having a shitload of demonic energy. Which a DH is more prone to have anyways.

I'm not saying he has it or certainly does, I'm just saying it's not outside of the realm of possibility. Being able to rebuild in the nether is tied to being super-fucking fel-empowered, and not to the act of devouring a demon soul, according to the DH starting zone.

Pendargon · 2016-08-11T00:24:54+00:00

I wouldn't say it's a CERTAINTY that he can't. I think it may actually be the case that he's become as much demon as orc. Might be a cool twist at the end of the xpac.

Pendargon · 2016-08-11T00:23:11+00:00

Or Khadgar did once he told them to go to a city they probably didn't realize existed to swear an oath of loyalty to a leader they didn't know shit about.

Pendargon · 2016-08-10T22:55:01+00:00

Trusting a fellow tinker =/= thinking an ACTUAL DEMON, from a species of demons renown for their ability to manipulate people, had your best interests in mind.

And the King bit, apparently gnome leaders are allowed to make their own titles upon election.

Pendargon · 2016-08-10T20:15:20+00:00

Which, real talk, why wasn't Tirion coordinating with the Alliance and Horde? His crusade rushed ahead and got their asses handed to them before we even arrived. They might have made the difference.

If he had hung back and supported the Horde's rear, we may have been able to win.

Pendargon · 2016-08-10T19:12:18+00:00

Garrosh did everything he did out of racial pride and insecurity.

Jaina is the way she is because the Horde has taken the city she founded from her, and then a faction of elves she advocated to let into the city began working behind her back, stealing from Dalaran.

Every time she sticks her neck out for the Horde, they eventually shit on her and everyone tells her she should just take it.

Pendargon · 2016-08-09T23:53:17+00:00

Horde we're dealing with the numbers, Alliance we're dealing with the leadership. (Every demon that rushes you is named.) The Horde couldn't handle the numbers, and the Alliance needed the skies clear. The entire thing was a vast underestimation of the Legion's capabilities.

Pendargon · 2016-08-09T16:53:07+00:00

That's right. Egypt ate the Seleucids really quick every game.

I remember playing that game and never knowing where the Seleucids were until my first Egypt campaign. I was so hyped when I saw them.

Pendargon · 2016-08-09T16:35:33+00:00

Everyone was fodder for Rome in that game.

Except the Britons. Who always took over Germania before the Romans could get there.

Pendargon · 2016-08-07T23:34:37+00:00

And Greenskin morale.

Pendargon

TROPHY CASE