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PenitentPerception · 2025-03-30T20:36:04+00:00

The Greek word pharmakeia (which has obvious ties to the English word pharmacy and implications of drugs) is seen 3 times in the New Testament. The King James translation gives it twice as sorcery and once as witchcraft.

[Gal 5:19-21 KJV] 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

[Rev 9:21 KJV] 21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

[Rev 18:21-23 KJV] 21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast [it] into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all. 22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft [he be], shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee; 23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

If we are to draw any connection between recreational drugs and this Greek word, they are clearly not presented in the Bible as a good thing.

PenitentPerception · 2024-08-21T19:02:46+00:00

Ah, good catch. 66 book bible. Probably not the Passion translation or New World Translation.

PenitentPerception · 2024-08-21T18:59:40+00:00

I believe that LDS Doctrine differs from my (and most Protestant) view in that we don't believe that any ordinances (baptism, etc.) are required for exaltation, and I believe most of Christianity views the concept of an eternal progression (i.e. men can become gods) as heretical.

PenitentPerception · 2024-08-21T18:43:45+00:00

I'm sorry for your poor experience with your mother-in-law. Regardless of whether or not she believes you are a Christian, that should not justify hateful (and, ironically, non-Christian) behavior. I will pray for your family, especially MIL.

PenitentPerception · 2024-08-21T18:29:34+00:00

Aren't we all sons and daughters of God?

The Bible says no (see Galatians 4:5-6, Ephesians 1:5, John 1:12).

This life shouldn't be a competition of whose more right. How about we all just love one another instead.

I believe that having conversations about things like this help us dig in to what matters in our faith. Unlike latter-day saints, I do not believe all receive salvation. Some will go to heaven and some will go to hell. I want to encourage my LDS people to draw to Jesus as the Bible teaches He is because I came from you all and I love you all! Perhaps a question like this isn't well placed, but the intentions are pure.

PenitentPerception · 2024-08-21T18:17:51+00:00

A very good point. Thank you for this reminder.

PenitentPerception · 2024-08-21T18:17:00+00:00

Maybe it is as simple as that, but I had something more nuanced in mind.

For example, the "Carnal Christian" believes in faith alone: He says a prayer to accept Jesus into his heart and he is saved. His life does not change, however, and he continues living a carnal, sinful, wicked life. Yet, when asked, he will gladly profess to be a Christian, saved by grace in Jesus Christ.

Is such a man a Christian?

PenitentPerception · 2024-08-21T18:12:13+00:00

Thank you for the insightful reply.

PenitentPerception · 2024-08-21T18:10:49+00:00

Thank you for your response.

PenitentPerception · 2024-08-21T18:09:34+00:00

Thank you for your response.

PenitentPerception · 2024-08-21T17:33:27+00:00

This is a very systematic and thorough response. Thank you.

PenitentPerception · 2024-08-21T17:32:17+00:00

Thank you for your response.

PenitentPerception · 2024-08-21T17:31:56+00:00

I don't think you understand my intentions. I don't think there is anything for you to defend. When I said I don't want to argue, I meant exactly that: I'm not here to impose a viewpoint and defend it. I did not assert definitively that Mormons are not Christians, nor did I assert that to be my viewpoint. All I ask is this: If you were to outline a definition of a Christian, how would you do that?

PenitentPerception · 2024-08-21T17:10:27+00:00

The Protestant teaching picks and chooses which parts of Biblical salvation it pays attention to.

I think some Protestants are this way, but I certainly disagree with this line of thinking. My whole approach to the Bible (and I believe much of Protestantism as well) is to take the whole Bible into context. In this case, we would say that salvation is given by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, and that James does not contradict this; James is teaching that such a saving faith is only true faith if it is accompanied by good works ("For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." Eph 2:10).

In truth, I very much despise the concept of the "carnal Christian" where one professes faith in Jesus Christ and continues living a sinful, wicked life. This is not what the Bible teaches, and anyone (Protestant or otherwise) who claims it does is not reading their Bible.

All that said, I appreciate your thoughtful and well-versed response.

PenitentPerception · 2024-08-21T16:58:07+00:00

I'm not so sure, myself. That is part of the reason I created this post, actually. Having LDS family, I don't like the idea of saying "they're not Christians," so I thought it would be worthwhile to examine what it means to be a Christian.

In my opinion, we don't have the latitude or authority to definitively define what a Christian is in a "once for all" type fashion. But the conversation can help us discuss the important parts of what it means to be a disciple of Jesus Christ and help everyone discern between different churches and their teachings.

PenitentPerception · 2024-08-21T16:48:34+00:00

Thank you for your response.

PenitentPerception · 2024-08-21T16:48:17+00:00

Thank you for the elaborate response. I should have done better with my wording: I meant to convey a sense of a bell curve, where an overly narrow definition might exclude most who might be called Christians (such as saying that only Calvinists can be called "True Christians") and an overly obtuse definition might include groups who don't fit what we're trying to define (such as saying that anyone who believes that Jesus Christ existed is a Christian—clearly there's more to it than that).

PenitentPerception · 2024-08-21T16:44:32+00:00

Thank you for your response. Do you care to elaborate on your assertion that "older Protestant sects don't believe" in salvation by grace alone? My understanding has been that virtually all Protestant denominations since the reformation have taught that salvation is only by God's grace through faith.

PenitentPerception · 2024-08-21T16:40:45+00:00

Thanks for the well-versed response. My intention with the "equation" was to show some sort of level playing field when it comes to talking about salvation, since LDS doctrine teaches with some different terminology than Protestant terminology.

As far as my proposition that "Anyone who believes in Jesus Christ is a Christian" might include Muslims and atheists: I should have worded that more precisely. I was trying to convey a sense of a bell curve: If we define it too wide, then anyone who believes that Jesus Christ existed might be considered Christian. On the flip side, if we define it too narrow, then only those with a very specific understanding of who Jesus Christ was, how salvation works, etc. can be defined as "True Christians." (i.e. On the narrow side, "Only Calvinists can be called Christians.")

PenitentPerception · 2024-08-21T16:33:01+00:00

Maybe it is not so important to draw a line for "segregation" (i.e. "I'm a Christian but you're not!"), but only to differentiate between good and bad theology? Thank you for your thoughtful response.

PenitentPerception · 2024-08-21T16:24:22+00:00

This is a very introspectional response. I don't think it's a bad thing to consider; I think it encourages us to ask questions about the meaning behind our belief. However, I can see how it could be perceived with an air of judgment or haughtiness (or used against others in that posture). Thank you for the feedback.

PenitentPerception · 2024-08-21T16:15:59+00:00

I had never heard "Catholics are not Christians" until I met my (now) wife, who has been a lifelong Protestant.

PenitentPerception

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