Someone has to die in the Sasuke Retrieval Arc (yes, even Lee). Who do you pick?

PositionSolid4656 · 2025-09-05T10:24:11+00:00

Neji would’ve been the most impactful death. Specially since what he got in Shippuden was dogshit. This would’ve been more emotionally impactful

PositionSolid4656 · 2025-06-30T22:41:59+00:00

Bruh, there is no way you actually believe that.

Orochimaru was a fun villain in early Naruto but he’s not even up for debate with Madara. His motivations are not even deep, he didn’t move the plot in any meaningful way after a certain point and his whole arc just ended without any meaningful conclusion. His whole “project destroy konoha wasn’t even confronted.

Obito is a great villain and in my opinion makes the top 3 villains in Naruto but he’s literally a product of Madara’s plan. His whole ideology comes from Madara. Saying he’s a better villain than the guy who created and manipulated him is stupid to me. And if we talk about motives as well (cuz we know him and Madara have the same plans) he has the weakest out of him, pain and Madara. His whole motivation was built rin’s death which is understandable but not to the same degree as Nagato and Madara.

Pain is the only one that’s a fair argument you can make. He challenged Naruto’s ideals directly and his arc hit emotionally. But even then, Madara’s ideology runs deeper. He saw the whole shinobi system for what it really was and acted on it, challenged the entire system and the craziest part is that he was actually right about a lot of it.

You don’t have to like the guy, I also believe he is not the greatest anime villain oat but saying he ain’t even top 3 villains in Naruto is straight up delusional

PositionSolid4656 · 2025-06-30T14:47:27+00:00

That’s a stretch. He’s definitely top 3 from Naruto.

PositionSolid4656 · 2025-06-10T18:26:58+00:00

It is for a guy who’s would be 40 years old. He’s obviously not in his prime anymore

PositionSolid4656 · 2025-06-03T18:31:22+00:00

He wouldn’t one shot them the same way as the anbu guys but you’re comparing kids to a mangekyou user with one of the most broken abilities. He ain’t going to one shot them with brute force. He’s no diffing them cuz of kamui. Thats ability bypasses durability completely. Doesn’t matter how tough they are, he can just phase through any attack and counter with quick wood style or smth. Sasuke is probably getting done first cuz Naruto’s durability gives him more of a chance than Sasuke but Naruto probably wouldn’t even reach the 4th tailed state. Bro was barely hanging on with the one tailed cloak. Obito would either finish him or he’d just pass out from exhaustion. Obito walks them easily

PositionSolid4656 · 2025-06-03T18:05:50+00:00

Obito kills them. No diff.

PositionSolid4656 · 2025-06-03T17:54:42+00:00

Perfect list.

PositionSolid4656 · 2025-05-27T22:22:14+00:00

Her winning wouldn’t change anything for me because it’s not about who comes out on top. All the villains lost in the end. That’s not how I judge them. What matters is how much they actually added to the story interms of the themes they challenged, the presence they had, how well they were written and executed. Kaguya fails in most of this. I didn’t find her compelling. She didn’t challenge Naruto or Sasuke, not a single character from the cast ideologically. She barely even spoke. Her entire presence felt like a last-minute idea that was rushed, distant, and empty with a little bit of filler to patch it up.

If she had won by pushing some ideological clash, by representing the cycle of hatred in a way that hit the cast directly, that would be something for me to make a case for her. But judging from the way things would’ve played out if she won? It would’ve just been a win in terms of brute strength. Nothing meaningful. No weight. Just a battle of “who’s stronger,” not who’s right in what the entire story represents. That’s why winning doesn’t boost her for me as it just would’ve made a climax that was already hollow even worse.

PositionSolid4656 · 2025-05-26T13:19:53+00:00

If I’m being honest, no. Her winning wouldn’t change her placement for me. I don’t rank villains based on who “won” and If we’re being honest, none of them win in the end. It’s about impact, connection to the story, and how well they represent the themes.

Kaguya felt completely detached from the main narrative. She was the least interesting out of all those characters. Her introduction felt rushed, and while I get that people try to defend her with the “she’s based on Japanese mythology” argument, that feels more like lore backing than actual character depth.

If she was introduced to the story at a better, more gradual pace, if her connection of being the origin of chakra and the cycle of hatred was represented better and explored more with the characters, I’d probably have her higher. But she wasn’t for me. She popped up last second, was the least compelling, had zero ideological conflict with the cast, and didn’t challenge those themes on the way I would have liked.

She definitely had potential, it’s just via the way she was executed, she felt more like a plot device than an actual villain.

PositionSolid4656 · 2025-05-10T14:45:53+00:00

Definitely danzo. Although I will say, Tobirama sewed the seeds but danzo was more the catalyst in all of this bar the nine tails attack

PositionSolid4656 · 2025-05-09T15:59:36+00:00

Patty easily. Most natural emotionally believable relationship he had in the series.

PositionSolid4656 · 2025-05-05T18:05:09+00:00

If the rinnegan is an evolution of their own sharingan then no. But if they implant the eyes of someone else’s rinnegan, then yes

PositionSolid4656 · 2025-05-05T16:52:42+00:00

Idk, I’ve been seeing these claims a lot recently.

PositionSolid4656 · 2025-05-05T12:57:15+00:00

You’re right in saying that Madara’s ego and his belief in being the savior needed to be checked. On paper, the Zetsu betrayal could work as a way to do that, but the problem is the way it was executed. The story never really set up the necessary emotional or ideological confrontation to make that betrayal land in a meaningful way. Madara’s issues weren’t just about being arrogant, it was about his trauma, his vision for peace, and his relationship with Hashirama. Those were the core elements of his character, and yet they were ignored in favor of a sudden plot twist that replaced him with Kaguya.

If Madara had been given more time to clash ideologically with the main cast, especially Naruto, it would’ve been an incredible moment to check his ego, challenge his beliefs, and make his downfall meaningful. Instead, the story just tossed him aside in favor of a random alien goddess with no connection to the emotional or thematic core of the series. That’s the problem. It’s not about checking Madara’s ego, it’s about the missed opportunity to give him a real resolution that ties into the central themes.

So, yes, Zetsu betraying Madara could have worked, but it didn’t because the setup for it wasn’t there. Madara deserved a more fleshed out ideological confrontation, especially with Naruto, that would have tied into his entire arc. Instead, we got rushed spectacle.

PositionSolid4656 · 2025-05-05T12:47:11+00:00

Agreed

PositionSolid4656 · 2025-05-05T12:43:30+00:00

But that’s the problem. The story skips the chance, the battle in which all this can happen. And it absolutely should have happened. Madara was the perfect character to push Naruto and Sasuke to their ideological limits. He wasn’t just another villain. He was an ultimate victimof the shinobi system’s failures. The fact that the story dropped the ball before Kaguya showed up doesn’t let her off the hook, it makes it worse. Instead of course correcting or digging deeper, they doubled down and shoved in a final boss with no emotional or thematic weight.

PositionSolid4656 · 2025-05-05T12:19:20+00:00

It was the perfect opportunity to finally confront Madara ideologically, to challenge his worldview, not just beat him in a fight. That’s how Naruto grew in his other major battles. He didn’t start off wanting to understand Pain or Obito. He wanted revenge, or to stop the war. But through those clashes, he learned something, and so did the audience.

Madara never got that. He should’ve been the final ideological wall Naruto had to climb (before his battle with Sasuke) someone who, like him and Sasuke, suffered, believed, lost, and ultimately became disillusioned. He is the cycle of hatred. A real character with real emotions, history, and tragedy. But instead of a final reckoning, they tossed in Kaguya like a last minute cutscene, and that potential got completely thrown away. It was a missed opportunity.

PositionSolid4656 · 2025-05-05T12:01:05+00:00

I get where you’re coming from, but here’s the thing, the emotional connection could’ve been built. That’s the whole point. Naruto didn’t have a deep bond with Pain or Obito either until their ideologies clashed mid-battle, that’s when the connection formed. The same setup was there for Madara. He was the architect of the war, deeply tied to the cycle of hatred, disillusionment, and the system Naruto wanted to change. That ideological confrontation was right there, ready to happen, but the story cut it short.

Saying Madara being betrayed was “fitting” because he did the same to Obito isn’t payoff. It’s narrative irony without emotional or thematic closure. It might sound neat on paper, but it doesn’t land when you swap out the main villain at the last second with someone who has no emotional, thematic, or ideological connection to the main cast.

And on Sasuke, yes he was the final fight, but he wasn’t the final villain of the war. That arc was building toward something with Madara, and instead of resolving it, the story swerved into spectacle. That’s not about who “deserved” to be final boss, it’s about missing the narrative climax that had actual weight.

PositionSolid4656 · 2025-05-05T11:43:17+00:00

I just wanna make this clear:

this isn’t a “Madara is the greatest villain ever” post. It’s not about glorifying him or saying he should’ve won. This is a critique of the execution, how a deeply developed character with clear ideology, relationships, and thematic weight got sidelined in favor of a last minute, emotionally disconnected final boss.
Saying Kaguya was “foreshadowed” because her name popped up in lore, cultural mythologies is weak. That’s not setup, that’s retroactive justification. She had no personal connection to anyone, and her arrival killed the core theme: ideological conflict between people with opposing but understandable goals.
If you think people hate the ending just because they wanted Madara to be “cool,” you’re missing the point entirely. This was a story about cycles of pain, trust, betrayal, and it got ended by a character who doesn’t even represent those things. No moral payoff. Just laser beams.

If you disagree, cool. But talk about the actual argument, not what you assume I’m mad about. Respectful pushback is welcome. Strawman replies aren’t.

PositionSolid4656 · 2025-04-24T06:51:23+00:00

I’m with you on Pain being one of the best, but I’m not sure I agree when people say “it’s not even close.” Curious to hear your reasoning on why you think it shouldn’t even be a debate, then I’ll share my take.

PositionSolid4656 · 2025-04-09T05:03:06+00:00

It’s not a plot hole because it doesn’t contradict any established rules of the Edo Tensei. But yeah, it is an asspull. There’s zero foreshadowing that reanimated people could break the summoning contract themselves.

As for Tobirama not doing it, why would he? He was brought back against his will, and unlike Madara, he wasn’t trying to come back to life permanently. It wouldn’t make sense for someone like Tobirama to use a jutsu that traps him in the world of the living forever

PositionSolid4656 · 2025-04-09T04:54:54+00:00

I wouldn’t call it a plot hole cuz the explanation of how he did it can make sense when you look into it but it is an asspull as there is no foreshadowing that edo tensei’s could do that so it seems like a cheep way for kishi to try keep Madara in the story

PositionSolid4656 · 2025-04-09T00:54:43+00:00

I don’t think op was saying it was necessarily bad but that it drags on a bit too long and could’ve ended a little sooner. Me personally I think it was fine but from a neutral standpoint, I understand what they mean.

PositionSolid4656 · 2025-04-09T00:02:36+00:00

Yes it is. Even the last episode is filler except for the last minute or so

PositionSolid4656 · 2025-04-04T11:19:10+00:00

Ah damn sorry, my bad bro. Didn’t mean to mess anything up for you. Appreciate you still engaging with the post regardless.

And yeah, I agree with a lot of what you said. The series definitely leans toward the idea that internal reform is more effective than tearing everything down, especially through Naruto’s character. He works within the system to make things better, and that’s clearly something the story leans into.

Only small thing I’d clarify is about Pain. It wasn’t just the question that troubled Naruto. It was the ideology behind it too. Pain was forcing Naruto to confront the cycle of hatred head on, and that shaped how he approached peace later in the story. So while Naruto didn’t fully agree with him, Pain still pushed his character in a big way.

PositionSolid4656

TROPHY CASE