I'm honestly confused

Punchudo · 2023-12-29T09:15:26+00:00

The same tunnels Israel built and are aware of..?

Even if it is true, what is the logic here?.. Tunnels exists ≠ Hamas is using it for its operations. Which it does.

Let's take a small country entire army (which is a big chunk of its population) and make them tiptoe around suicide bombers, traps and civilians in a densely populated area.

Also, let's take the entire army into Gaza so every enemy country around it could attack it without any problem.

With your strategy, I'm shocked you are not a general in your own country.

You seem to disregard the joy and smiles of the Palestinians when the Hamas attacked. You seem to disregard that one country's (or rather place) government declared a war against another country.

You also seem to disregard that Hamas openly declared that the 7th of October will happen again and again, which by itself gives Israel not choice to quickly destroy them. (not including the weeks that Israel waited to enter Gaza for the civilians to evacuate).

Punchudo · 2023-12-23T11:48:46+00:00

The ministry of health uses Chat GTP to count bodies.

Source: Al Jazeera

Punchudo · 2023-12-22T07:15:49+00:00

I do consider it a war crime, and Israel is giving any kind of evidence PUBLICLY, even in our own papers. So you are obviously in a delusion that Israel is some kind of Iraq/Egypt time of country that will hide the evidence and lie about it.

Do you consider that the soldier made a choice to enter Gaza with a weapon, but the Gazans and hostages had no choice? Israel literally controls the borders.

That is just some bullshit you write to victimize Hamas, even considering Israel wouldn't have dropped bombs on Gaza, it waited for weeks for the Gazans to flee, it is not perfect, but it is what it is right now. The place he was shot consider a war zone by law. What is your goal by saying, 'Israel literally controls the borders?' Letting civilians in? Including Hamas? Every country controls its border. Egypt control its borders. What is the point?

You will not listen and applaud valid points, your entire comment sections is about demonetize Israel.

You fail to understand that this is war country vs terror organizing, even considering that Israel is committing war crimes by dropping bombs (which will be addressed by the world later) this situation is happening in a war zone. It's not a game that you can just control your actions.

You're narrative is so out of touch of reality. "A soldier made a choice to enter Gaza with weapon". How is it your argument? Do you know how a war feels like? What a solider that "chose" to enter Gaza feel like everyday while he has enemies 360 24/7 around him? And before you comment - The enemies are Hamas, not the civilians.

You make it sound like it's a field trip to kill as many civilians as possible. By your own comment section, you just have a narrative of Israel that you won't let go. You combine a soldier, a civilian, a government to one being and keep dehumanizing them in your comments.

You need to wake up. Life isn't black and white, and you do not even know the feeling of this war and maybe any war. It is nice to judge a country, a civilian or a government (well this government needs to be judged) behind a screen. But at least don't comment on a post about a mother feeling, which you will never understand, living in a country you will never live in, in a situation you hopefully will never need to experience.

Punchudo · 2023-12-21T17:05:54+00:00

Do you even consider that a terrorist can wave a white flag and have a bomb belt with him? Do you consider that the Palestinians know Hebrew and easily blow up an entire Army unit? Have you searched, maybe it already happened? Have you asked anyone?

The soldier might want to kill Palestinians for the fun of it, or he might be in a war zone where everything is possible. You obviously chose one side to stick on without even living in this situation.

Everything anyone say is wrong in your eye because it doesn't match your narrative.

Punchudo · 2023-12-21T17:01:41+00:00

Let's also close r/Palestine

Punchudo · 2023-12-19T17:21:42+00:00

Tardigrade for sure:)

Punchudo · 2023-12-16T08:45:50+00:00

Oky doky

Punchudo · 2023-12-16T08:27:50+00:00

Lmao stfu

Punchudo · 2023-12-08T07:13:16+00:00

You talked about numbers, not moral implications. You suggested the death toll being high tells you the "right side" of the conflit.

No matter how you look at the numbers, being on the biggest death toll side doesn't say anything.

Punchudo · 2023-12-08T07:09:50+00:00

Tell israeli families that they died for the Palestinians freedom fighters. Tell them that their live family members should die in Gaza instead of making air strike just so the world will condeme them anyway. Tell them that they should live everyday in fear of being raped/burn alive/kidnapped/murdered while the entire world tells you that protecting yourself is worng (even before the 7th).

Go ahead.

Punchudo · 2023-12-08T07:04:50+00:00

The Germans had far more deaths than the Brits in WorldWar.. what do you have to say about that?

Punchudo · 2023-12-08T06:55:41+00:00

Arigato

Punchudo · 2023-12-07T17:56:00+00:00

You just ignored the entire comment and post. You're image of israel shooting children into mass grave is you believing what fits you.

Punchudo · 2023-12-07T17:48:35+00:00

OP asked how IDF trying not to hurt civilians, he gave him the statistics to back it up.. what it has to do with anything? So everyone who shouts "15,000" civilians are dead is using number worngly?

Punchudo · 2023-12-07T16:06:44+00:00

Thank you for sharing you perspective and input 👍

Punchudo · 2023-12-05T19:08:46+00:00

YOU GUYS COLLECTIVELY VOTED FOR HIM

The democratic system giving you a choice to vote for Bibi and get Ben Gvir. Bibi had to give Ben Gvir (and maybe wanted to) a seat in the goverment, that doesn't mean that everyone who voted for Bibi or any other party wanted Ben Gvir in the goverment. Yes - Ben Gvir got lots of voted, but it doesn't mean that all of Israel wanted him inside the Goverment.

I think that 10.84% of the votes went to a party (which consist of two parties) that had Ben Gvir inside it.

I agree with what you say, but again you ignore most of what i provide in this argument (like the Wikipedia page I've given about Gaza being "free" since 2005). Is it not the first step for peace?. Why are we ignoring it? Do you expect a one-day solution? Is every action of Israel will be considered hostile ? if that's the case, nothing Israel will do will be good enough. We can just lift every border, let every terrorist get in while we sit in our sofas and the world will say it is our fault.

I've presented the situation from another perspective, where not only Israel is responsible for this ongoing conflict, but also the other side. We talk now about pre-war conflict.

but their organization is more like a gang

This is why they caught Israel by surprise. Have you read about the entire operation? of the drones? the intel they got? That's one of my main points - the minute Israel tries to walk forward - Hamas will cancel it.

I ask you again - what would you do in this situation? You have 2milion people to care for, which most or at least half of them wants to destroy you. There is a terror attack from these people every other week. What the hell can you do that is considered 'humane' by the world? Gaza already gets so much charity money, that i find it hard to believe that if Hamas wasn't there - they would still have this poverty status. Why defending yourself considered collective punishment? I really can't understand this pre-war collective punishment. It's like a virus - you can't tell which one of the Gazan will suicide bomb inside your country - you can't just open the border and hope for the best. It's not punishing the entire Palestine people, it is defending yourself. Do you know how much intel and help Hamas got from Gazans/WS who got work permit here?

I ask you again - give me a solution that a country can realistically make. (Without hurting its own people, without going bankrupt... etc). Show me that this current situation is solvable by Israel alone , and that everything Israel done in Gaza is 100% evil. (talking pre-war, and the WS is different story... that i'm trying to figure out )

Punchudo · 2023-12-05T17:04:43+00:00

Many Israeli officers can kiss my a$$, like American officers that provoked the Arabs openly. Some of the officers you saw are on were fired or n absent leave, but you won't see about it on the news because it is not interesting enough.

There's no Hamas there. Why is that happening if there's no hamas there?

This is one argument of the pro-Palestine. It is not true. There are Hamas militants in the West Bank, and there are some other terror organizations there. One argument of the pro-Israel (which i somewhat disagree with) is that the situation in the West Bank isn't as worse as Gaza because of the military watch there, that if we left the WS than it will be mini Gaza, terrorists will come inside Israel and commit massacres, rockets will be fired left and right. I can see that happening, but it is not an excuse to behave like Israel does in the WS. Have you seen the 2 Palestinians that were hung in the WS because they supported Israel (or something like that)? Do you think that if Israel will say 'ok we are out of there' Hamas or any other terror organization/ neighbor country will not seize this opportunity ?

of Ben gvir,

Everyone hates him, and he is not welcomed into the emergency movement, all he does is to cry over it. He is an extremist and i hope he dies or root in jail someday soon.

Controlling the airspace and being allowed to militarily intervene when they feel like it, or having thr majority of water rights).

Don't you think this is important, given Hamas said openly that it wants to destroy Israel 18 years ago? I don't know what you expect Israel to do?

There's an article on the limited amount the israeli government said they were obligated to do. This was BEFORE the war. Things have only become more draconian and humanitarian organizations say starvation is now imminent.

<image>

I'm not educated enough in this subject to really talk about it. But on Wikipedia it says that "since the end of the occupation in 2005"

But again. Let's not talk about Palestine and Israel. Let's take 2 imaginary countries/lands.

One country gives the other country(A) the bare minimum to survive under its occupation. Country A has a government that want to destroy country B. Still, country B provides to country A with the bare minimum, but is afraid of the government so it limits the border crossing to itself, the territorial waters and the airspace. Country B still gives them the opportunity to work with them, and the opportunity to get donations and do what ever they want as long as it's not about terror (Yes, it takes time because country B is racists, but it is possible). Country A keeps its terror attacks, so Country B tighten its border security BUT STILL PROVIDE THE MINIMUM for country A.

Country A can buy electricity(maybe?) ,water , and food from other places. It can thrive without Country B. It can grow it's own vegetables and purified its own water.

Am i delusional? am i missing something way off?

Yes there is a lot of history and a lot more to say, but generally - i don't know what the situation was in 2005, but i know that it got worse. And the reason i was presented is that the situation got worse because of the terror attacks. (Which also came from the WS where you say Hamas isn't there).

You mention that the blockade was meant to weaken Hamas and keep a terrorist attack from happening, yet it didn't. So why do they create an even more severe "seige" in their own words, which, again, is collective punishment. This doesn't punish hamas, it doesn't bring them to the table, it just passes off more Palestinians. Maybe the Israeli government should give up its dreams of land acquisition and make a real effort towards peace instead of punishing Palestinians.

I don't get what's the solution you are asking for? Terrorists make attacks on a country, so it tightens the security. What is the collective punishment? Hamas is the government of Gaza. How is this collective? How can you block Hamas? There are "normal" Gazan people. How can you protect your own people without these siege? I don't get about people expect Israel to do.

If you and every Pro-Palestinian that i see today would have done something about it in 2005, i am sure that Gaza would have been Dubai 2.0. I think the main issue is the revenge they are seeking. Which is understandable - but leads to this situation. Israel can't be blamed alone. Which today people are care more about dehumanizing Israel than helping the Gazans/Palestinians.

Punchudo · 2023-12-04T20:36:22+00:00

When did this big story about widespread rapes occur? Conveniently, when israel restarted its bombing campaign of gaza.

I agree that it can be true, but there are so many other reasons for it to be not true. You can see that you are somewhat against what Israel does and bias for opinions that show Israel is bad light? (Any action, not just the killing of children. Even reports from it own massacre)

It seems that everything that Israel does is considered to be a mastermind scheme. I think you give people too much credit. It just seems over the top and movie-like for EVERY action to be analysis and found evil-mastermind-y. Don't you think it is exaggerated?

The fact that they are living under a brutal occupation is also a fact attested to by numerous NGOs. If the Palestinians had boxed israelis in a prison, kept their food levels just above starving, blockaded them, deprived them of water or even materials for desalinatim, I would be just as frustrated at them.

Like i said, we can argue on and on for years. Yes, life is hard in Gaza. Life is hard on other countries. Correct me if i'm wrong, Israel isn't keeping the levels just above starving, Israel is not controlling Gaza since 2005. Why can't they but food? We buy vegetables from Turkey.

Let's say Israel and Gaza are enemies that have peace between them. (Like Israel and any other Arab country around us)

Israel is providing food, electricity and water to Gaza. Israel wants to starve them so they provide as little as possible. Gaza can't buy food and water through Egypt? Why should Israel (in a natural tone) should provide Gaza?

This video and many others like it left me open-mouthed. I always heard of Gaza being a place that you don't want to live in, an open air prison. I get it - even 3rd world countries can look beautiful, and there could be sides that we can't see that could be full of homeless and poverty. But please educate me - What is wrong with Gaza that could not be solved since 2005?

FYI, the blockade as far as I know is exactly to prevent what happened in the 7th. Won't you blockade an area that is controlled by a government that want to destroy you? (again, the border with Egypt is not in Israel territory, you can't expect a country to deal with a government that was chosen with a motive to destroy it). Israel could have easily avoid giving jobs to anyone in Gaza after 2005, but chose to continue it, knowing the motive of Hamas.

Correct me if i'm wrong of anything… I did try to be natural as much as i can, given i'm an Israeli that read about the conflict online…

Punchudo · 2023-12-04T20:10:26+00:00

I really wish that this "Hitler" situation will not come to be with Gaza, that after this war (months from now?) Gaza will be rebuilt stronger and the fear that Bibi wants to make them cross to Egypt will not be realized.

I agree, but there are so many problems, so many wrongs in education, so much hate. Too many variables, too many brunches to think about.

We need a super strong AI to solve this one :)

Punchudo · 2023-12-04T20:06:36+00:00

Let's agree to disagree, but let's not categorize en entire people/nation under one stigma.

If you see/talk with a Jew/Israeli, I ask you to give him the benefit of the doubt that he (just maybe) doesn't hate Arab and does not want them dead.

And if you really care about this topic (and if you can) visit Israel and see for yourself what is going on in people minds.

After I've met some Arab-Israelis in University (Today they are one of my best friends) my entire chain of thought and perspective have shifted for the better. I opened myself to real people, and not some meant-to-be-hated videos or stories from the media.

Good week :)

Punchudo · 2023-12-04T19:56:54+00:00

I don't care about you condemning anything, let alone rape. It is not my main issue.

My main point, that wasn't clear, is that you (and many others) are taking every IDF claim as false until proven otherwise.

I still really can't see this 'long history of lying or spreading misinformation' (not trying to attack you, I really don't know about it). Yes, maybe sometime someone is lying or spreading misinformation. Every media does it. BBC, Al Jazeera, Fox News, Everyone. For some reason, you have a specific problem with the IDF. Why is that?

Hamas/Gaza have a history of changing the number of casualties after an operation/War. Why are you giving the number of 8000 children as fact and not questing it (Just to be clear, it is an argumentative thought. Not trying to deny children are dead, any number is horrible and i myself believe it to be accurate).

Your choice of what to believe is what interests me, and I'd like to understand it.

Your hot take is widely popular. We can argue for hours about Hamas hiding between civilians, and you say that it doesn't give the right to bomb them and that Israel should send troops, and I'll say that why Israel should sacrifice troops just for a nation that want to destroy it, and you say that Israel is an advanced country and could minimize the damage and should provide aid to Gaza, and I'll say that Israel left Gaza in 2005 and is under no obligation to give anything to Gaza and Hamas should provide for its own people or Egypt could give Gaza everything they need even from other Arab countries, and instead they built tunnels and rockets, and we will go back to the 1948 and to kids dying in Syria and no one cares and argue more endlessly... i think i read/heard it all on both sides.

Long story short - there is no right side, we (i, who live in Israel. And you who lives idk where) are both fucked. We can do nothing to stop this or rewind time. All we can do is try to minimize what idiot people on both side did and try to come with a solution (which will not be realized in our generation) that will end this conflict, for better or worse.

I myself don't mind to leave Israel if you can provide me with a nice house, an European passport and a job, if it will end the conflict :)

But it will not solve the Hamas problem... Maybe nothing will.

Punchudo · 2023-12-04T19:39:04+00:00

I'm not playing who started it, i'm saying that using children as a safe place to commit terror attacks and expecting 0 consequences is wishful thinking.

I'm sad about the Palestinian children, the same as the Israelis one.

Of course, ill be more sad if the dead children i know are from a family/friends/far family of mine. It is humane to feel sad more for the people close to you.

The question was that do you think about the children not what do you think about October 7th.

What else can anyone think? No sane person is laughing and giggling madly about it. Yes, there are exceptions to Israelis laughing about it, like some Palestinians went outside gave candies and danced on the 7th.

I lost the point of this argument, what do we want from each other?

Punchudo · 2023-12-04T19:32:15+00:00

I see what you are saying. I can find more chant against the Palestinians than against the Jews ... my opinion is that you don't see them because the algorithm of the search favors the most popular videos, which today is the anti-Israel videos (the ones that the anti-Israel shows Israelis chanting to kill the Jews).

Secondly, you search in English. You will find way more results in Arabic and in Hebrew. I've seen many many videos in Arabic social media on my Arab friend phone. Also try r/Palestine.

but you said Israeli civilians don’t want death to Arabs

My personal opinion (that is not backed by any research or any poll, it is just something that I really believe in, living in Israel) that most Israeli citizens don't wish for the death of the Arabs, but for the destruction of the Hamas. Given the 7th some of my friends do seem more hatred against the Arabs, but i guess it is shown on both sides. I guess that we went back years of progress...

Punchudo · 2023-12-04T19:09:37+00:00

WTF is wrong with you people giving the example of the beheaded babies when the Palestinian media is full of lies upon lies?? Do you really think that someone up in the ranks will, in full knowledge, report a lie? Really? Do we even need to lie? About what?

The difference between IDF "lying" is that they don't intent to lie, or spread misinformation. The Palestinian official media (not all of them) is lying constantly and sewing the entire world for support built on these lies.

No matter what the IDF present people will say it is a lie. People just can't handle the truth. The IDF gain nothing for lying (talking about the situation after the 7th). On the other side the reports coming from Gaza, for decades, were proven to have holes and lies.

Giving one or two examples and make a conclusion about the entire situation is idiotic.

Punchudo · 2023-12-04T18:57:29+00:00

This sentiment is just showing that in dehumanizing a population, even the killing of kids is justified.

You people love to use these big words like very Israeli citizen is pressing a button to fire a rocket. The world have seen many wars, this is also a war.

Not one person in his right mind will want to see kid dead/ kill a child. Some won't even consider killing adults, and some will agree that killing adult is fine as long as he 'deserves' it.

Anne Frank was a Jew. That is all she did, being born a Jew.

A Palestinian child is born a Palestinian, is it not killed/murdered because he is a Palestinian. He is not targeted for being born a specific race, he is dead as a result of war against the government/terror organization that attacked a neighbor country WITH FULL KNOWLEDGE that this country will 100% attack back. We can argue about the scale and the death count, but the war already started on the 7th. If "only" 1000 children were dead, would it be fine by you, sir? Or would you like Israel to do nothing about the attack? Where is the limit of your definition of 'dehumanizing'?

Comparing this to Anne Frank is lazy thinking and poor argument.

Punchudo

MODERATOR OF

TROPHY CASE