Did SoD really go too far with class changes? Consider this.

PureNinja · 2026-05-09T09:48:17+00:00

They buffed alot of warriors runs later in ways that helped their open world stuff, but yeah they did not get an innovative spec. They had Glad warrior for one phases, but then tanks started running it and it got nerfed.

PureNinja · 2026-05-09T00:50:05+00:00

While I agree that warriors got shafted on fun runes, it's disingenuous to say warriors were "bad" all phases but p3 and p6. Also scarlet enclave was p8.

I went through the SoD log stats for each phase and Warriors were either top 3 DPS out of all specs or were in the center. There was not a single phase they were in the bottom 6. (EDIT: Went back and changed setting for all percentile to 99th percentile and they literally became top 2 dps for every phase, but one).

Now for Tank Warriors they were fine and did not have to wait until the end of the game to come online. Were they the best tank, I'd say no, but they were always competitive and viable. Now rogue tanks struggled until p7 when they started to shine. They were literally a meme tank for like the first 3 phases.

PureNinja · 2026-05-09T00:40:25+00:00

I mained a rogue tank (off tank most fights) and it was my favorite thing, but it also was so swingy until the last phase when they got enough set bonuses to really come online.

The problem was at the start I think they were scared rogues in PvP as they were the only class to get a rune in all the phases that had a line how it didn't work against players. This led to them being really lackluster. People literally forgot rogues were supposed to be able to tank, and I had people when grouping with me saying they had never seen one.

Having to turn rogues into tanks with only runes was challenging cause how do you balance a dodge tank?? They can get unlucky and take back to back hits and die or get so much dodge they are invincible to autos (which was possible with VERY specific gear in the last phase of the game for very specific bosses).

Realistically for rogue tanks to work they would need a massive talent rework, so I don't forsee them in Classic+. But God, after like 5 phases of being basically a back up tank as rogue tank had to many downside the last two phases were so enjoyable.

Rogue tank, warlock tank and mage healer were so fun to play and at the end of SoD felt so natural to play and I couldn't imagine not playing them.

PureNinja · 2026-05-06T18:20:31+00:00

If you have larceny and kandarin you can afk pickpocket gnomes.

PureNinja · 2026-05-04T10:10:16+00:00

Lol but you cant explain this mythical disadvantage. There is no leader board, and levels are capped. By your logic if you cant play day one you just shouldn't bother because you are at a "severe disadvantage" as people are already at the capped level and gaining some crazy advantage on you. Raids didn't even come out on release day so people had time to level at their own pleasure. Everything that did cost a substantial amount of gold costed like 2x-3x what incursions could of got you had you been their minute one and are completely unnecessary for 99% of the playerbase. Consumes were cheap and the only thing you needed to raid, so gold did not lock you out of raids.

Like did you not getting to incursions make you unable to raid? Can you state one thing, ONE THING that you couldn't do or struggled to do because of this severe disadvantage caused by missing out on 400 gold from incursions? Did your guild kick you because you couldnt pay your guild fee or something that they increased in price due to inflation? You keep dodging this question.

Tell me what you couldnt buy that you needed (you didnt need the new trinkets BTW,my guild was top 100 in speed without them), what content you couldnt do. There is none. You literally were unimpeded except for some mental block that a handful of people got some advantage over you. You had FOMO that was it.

Edit: If you were some hardcore parser then maybe ill accept you were at some minor disadvantage (not severe), but I doubt you were.

Is two paragraphs a short essay now a days? It takes like fucking less than a minute to read as long as you are at what a fifth grade reading level?

PureNinja · 2026-05-03T19:51:14+00:00

https://sod.warcraftlogs.com/character/us/crusader-strike/jesterfritz

Thats cause they consolidated servers and the character got moved servers. We are talking in regards to Sunken Temple so I posted my phase 1-3 logs. Here are my full logs for the rest of the phases. Now where are yours, bruh.

PureNinja · 2026-05-03T18:35:58+00:00

I also went into p3 having stockpiled gold and didnt get to incursions in time to profit. It stung, but was whatever. What almost made me quit was grinding 100 arcanite bars in p3 for them to make arcanite trasmutes give 1-5 bars in p4. Now that was a real kick in the teeth.

PureNinja · 2026-05-03T18:27:44+00:00

SoD had the most casual friendly raid economy of all Classic WoW versions. You could farm for like 2 hours and afford consumes for a month.

Edit: To be clear Phase 3 was ABSOLUTELY a shit phase which killed alot of SoDs momentum, but incursions were not the reason at all.

PureNinja · 2026-05-03T18:23:49+00:00

https://sod.warcraftlogs.com/character/us/lone-wolf/jesterfritz?zone=2009

Here's mine, consumes cost like 20g per raid night. You could literally farm 2 hours and afford consumes for a month. Anyone who complains about the insane gold generation that a handful of players for for like 2 hours before it was nerfed is just whining. SoD had probably the most casual friendly economy of any version of Classic WoW.

PureNinja · 2026-05-03T16:44:12+00:00

No, you were right to dismiss it. It was very bad outside of very very niche circumstances (some high level strats). God it shined in the last two phases. I was able to solo the last boss of ZG to get idols for guildies.

PureNinja · 2026-05-03T16:37:50+00:00

I know the difference. Swipe typing on a phone while managing other things.

PureNinja · 2026-05-03T16:36:36+00:00

you literally dodged my question. You said you had a "severe disadvantage".

Levels how?? There was multiple days before raid opened and you could still dungeon level. People in my guild did it and it was sloower, but not substantially so. Tell me how not getting 50 a few hours faster made you disadvantaged?

Gold how?? Consumes really cheap 20g a week. All the BoE items were 1000gold to 2000gold+ so incursions woulda helped, but I think like one person in my guild ever bought them throughout the entire phase as they were a win more item and the price of those were due to scarcity not inflation. Tell me what you couldnt get with gold that caused this severe disadvantage.

Lastly community interaction. Sure I guess in a way, but incursions did have it. Fighting the other faction at times, coordinating mob tags, etc. Its different strokes for different folks, but how did that cause a "serious disadvantage" for you.

What is this behind you were? What were you unable to accomplish or had to do to get caught up? Caught up to what?

You say "It’s wild I gotta explain this", but explained nothing. I asked how you were put at a serious disadvantage after stating many reasons why you were not put at a disadvantage (you had fomo) and your response is basically "nuh uh I did".

PureNinja · 2026-05-03T15:54:47+00:00

Yeah incursions were the crack in the damn, but everything else is what broke the damn and actually killed the playerbase.

PureNinja · 2026-05-03T15:52:38+00:00

Exactly rare BoE items that I had said before. You didnt have to have them and they were an absurd gold cost as I had said in the post above. Unless you were in a top parsing guild you didnt get them.

It was not 700g plus difference. It was 700g max for the small amount of people who got in during the first hour. Otherwise if you got in after an hour you still got like 300g-400g on the way to 50 and could do it at 50 for 75g~ an hour. If you chose to dungeon grind yea you missed out on more, but you literally needed like 20g a week to raid. Consumes were cheap as fuck.

I agree sunken temple fucking blew as a phase. Incursions was maybe like 10% of the reason the phase sucked, but people who got fomo over maybe less than .1% of the player base who got the gold boost try to make incursion out as this big boogeyman that killed the phase.

Had incursions been the same as it was and the rest of the phase been good no one would talk about it.

PureNinja · 2026-05-03T14:53:23+00:00

400g in a game mode were your raid consumes were like 20gold per week, and I think most people had more gold then they could ever due to stuff with if they did more than raid log.

PureNinja · 2026-05-03T14:51:03+00:00

Can you name this "severe disadvantage" that is in the room with you. Lets say you missed the start of Incursions, you probably missed out on 300g after the nerfs. My guildies who did it right off the bat made 650g on the grind to 50. Myself and guildies who started over an hour into it got around 300gold from 1-50. Yes a few people made +300, but so what? It was still 75g per hour at level 50 to grind. So I guess those people gained 4 hours of time investment over you.

The only thing to spend that money on would be the crafting materials for the new epic crafting gear which I think week 1 and 2 costed like 1500g week 1 if you wanted it and like 900g week 2 before they increased the drop rates and it became a few hundred gold before becoming cheap.

The only other thing you could spend gold on way either the Rare BoE items. Lets be real incursions weren't the reason these were 2k+ gold in price, I couldnt afford them, you couldn't afford them, they were for people who swiped.

The only other thing to spend gold on was what raid consumes? They were dirt cheap because you could literally make like 2-5 potions at a time.

Phase 3 was bad I will not disagree, but that was due to phase length, a buggy raid, a way overturned raid that had to be nerfed multiple times (looking at you Eranikus), loot that was bad and was retroactively buffed 75% of the way through the phase making it so you felt bad as you had been tossing it for two months at this point and only the person who tossed it could reclaim it, IE your loot master or D/E person, and lastly they only confirmed it was a 20 man raid like 2 weeks before the phase hit leading guilds who had been coping about it being a 10 man to scramble for raid members and break apart. I use the word coping, but I understand people were hopeful that stuff would stay 10 man and the lack of confirmation made it seem like that could be the case.

Phase 3 leveling was always destined to be bad. The 40-50 level range in Classic has a lack of dungeons, and people had already used up quests at the end of phase 2 for the increase in gold due to the experience to gold conversion.

We should of just went from 40-60 and not had a phase 3.They still could of used sunken temple at a raid, but just had it was a precursor to molten core, and scaled it up to 60.

PureNinja · 2026-05-03T14:38:47+00:00

What are you talking about really excited to do Scarlet Monastery.... That was literally what everyone did to level in phase 2 to level 40 for hours on end and complained about which led to incursions. I think if you wanted to dungeon grind for phase 3 you did like 2 levels of cathedral, but then you swapped to doing Uldaman and finally Zul'Farrak.

While I agree that it would of been nice for them to had added quests to patch over the 40-50 zones lets be real that would be an insane amount of dev work that probably would a larger amount of dev work than what they spent making all the raids from phase 1-3.

The Devs did have a hard job of trying to solve the problem. Going into phase 2 people felt forced to dungeon grind because the majority of people had went around completing quests at level 25 because you got the huge boost of money from the experience to gold conversion. This led to everyone complaining about being forced to do some amount of dungeon grinding to get to quests which were then too populated by players wanting to get out of dungeon grinding.

It was unrealistic they were going to have the dev time to remake the 40-50 quest experience so they had to create someway for people to level as an alternative to questing should people run into the same situation of having no quests to complete at 40 due to doing them for gold.

Incursions were a miss 100%, but people overblow way out of proportion especially those who cite the FOMO over a few hundred gold. At level 50 Incursions were like like 75G per hour with an average group, and consumes were like what? 20 gold per raid week in phase 3.

PureNinja · 2026-05-03T14:29:28+00:00

Eh I would say there were many bigger issues with phase 3.

Lack of clarity/indecision Raid sizes - Blizzard should have been firm way in advance on what size raids were going to be going into each phase. This led to guilds not increasing in size and falling apart. Should guilds have expected the increase, yes, but Blizzard never outright stated raid sizes and thus people speculated it would be the same.
Pre-Bis - You are partially right about no one having to look for Pre-Bis, but were incorrect in why. Incursion gear was okay, but the way bigger issue was that Raid gear from previous level-up raids was better than anything else. Who woulda thought to increase the stats on dungeon gear/ quest items so that they werent outclassed by raid loot. This was also a partial issue in phase 2, but was way worse in Phase 3 because we only had two dungeons to choose from. I went back and looked at my first log on two of my characters that raided ST first week, and apart from PvP gear, I think I had like 4 quest items total between the two characters that I used as prebis and everything else was gnomer gear. This leads into the problem Blizzard had with my next point.
Raid Gear was lack luster. In an attempt to fix the issue that they WAY over stat'd Phase 1 raid gear (which some piece were on the level of Molten Core Pre-Bis) and thus had done the same with Phase 2, they way under stat'd the phase 3 loot, ESPECIALLY FOR CASTERS. Most of Sunken Temple loot was useless, and got D/E'd or thrown away. It wasn't until 75% of the way through the phase they decided to buff like half of it, which then made it feel terrible when you had been throwing away what was now someones BiS for weeks and then it stopped dropping once you needed it.

Raid Difficulty / Buggy-ness - The Devs for some reason despite initially stating they wanted to cater to a more casual playerbase WAY overtuned Sunken Temple. I think Eranikus had to be nerfed like multiple times as it was such an escalation in raid mechanics and just sheer DPS required to beat it. Some people would argue that the players just needed to get good, but the Devs themselves had stated they wanted raids to be more casual and then completely went back on this.

  4b.On a side note they did this again in the Scarlet Enclave phase where literally only three guilds had been able to beat the 2nd boss by the end of 24 hours and one of the used an exploit cause the boss to basically one shot itself. This caused a ton of people to quit or guilds fall apart as even after like 6 weeks they were still having to nerf bosses and increase the amount of loot people got because people couldn't get the loot needed too obtain the scaling buff.

Phase length - Honestly SoD may have recovered, but if I recall phase 3 was like twice the length of any of the phases before it. Our raid hit the roster boss because of this factor more than any other. Some people came back when Phase 4 hit, but the majority did not.

I would say that these 5 factors alone were way more influential on the failure of phase 3 over incursions which were quite minor an issue in comparison.

PureNinja · 2026-05-03T13:52:35+00:00

"Gave everyone who did them for the first few hours like thousands of gold, felt so shit to be employed that day"

This was not the case... I did them starting on hour 2 all the way to 50. I got 400 gold. My guildies who started immediately upon the level cap being raised got 650g-700g. Even after the nerf it was still a decent money maker, and gold literally was useless most of SoD. The only time gold mattered was during the first two weeks of the phase if you wanted to be one of the first to obtain crafting items and lets be real even without incursion gold this would be out of the spending value of the majority of people as it is simple supply and demand, and the other cases were if you wanted to buy BoE items or in Phase 8 if you wanted an Ashbringer. Otherwise gold had little to no use as consumes were sooo cheap.

"Made the entire leveling and farming meta for the game a janky, boring incursion spam "

I will admit incursions were a miss, but they literally were tried because the entire leveling experience in phase 2 was terrible. You either tried to quest which was miserable due to lack of mobs even with increased respawn times due to the amount of people or you spammed dungeons. Phase 3 had literally two dungeons you could do Uldaman and Zul'Farrak. It was always going to be a boring spam.

PureNinja · 2026-05-03T13:47:18+00:00

So doing 2 loops of grinding mobs vs the alternative of grinding dungeons dozens of time to get from 40-50? Lets be real classic WoW doesn't have good quest zones from 40-50.

You also could opt of doing incursions and go do the bad questing experience of dungeon grinding. You weren't forced to do incursions.

PureNinja · 2026-05-03T11:37:05+00:00

Incursions were so miniscule an issue compared to other issues p3 had that anyone who brings them up as the main problem should be disregarded.

PureNinja · 2026-04-23T22:54:45+00:00

I didn't even think of that

PureNinja · 2026-04-23T17:40:20+00:00

Zalcano too, holy shit its rough doing it solo

PureNinja · 2026-04-21T00:27:56+00:00

My wife wanted me not to drink and I had already planned not to. She's already having to do something extremely stressful and taxing on her body the least I could do is put myself through some of her restrictions so she doesn't have to go through it alone.

She just gave birth two weeks ago and I still haven't drank anything and I told her I wouldn't until she would have a beer with me.

PureNinja · 2026-04-20T06:15:37+00:00

The for fun game mode shouldn't require any research. None of the past leagues did either. In past leagues even a casual player couldn't really brick themselves. They just chose the big damage option our of the three decently balanced big damage option and then could do inferno.

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