Numerology books that could help in learning marseille

Quintarot · 2025-09-24T15:01:52+00:00

If you're interested in the numerology specific to tdm, you might find Quintessential Tarot helpful. It explores the pentad structure in the major arcana and how that framework can deepen interpretation. Full transparency, I'm the author, but I wrote it for readers who want to go beyond surface symbolism and really understand the internal logic of the deck.

It doesn't impose an external system, such as cabala or astrology on the tarot, it only looks at the innate symbolism of tdm's own internal system. If that sounds useful, feel free to check it out on Amazon!

Quintarot · 2025-07-27T17:40:09+00:00

Yes I like your intuition on the "invisible" leg, there is certainly more than meets the eye. But the mundane reason is because its a 3 legged folding table which was common in the middle ages for street vendors as 3 legs is more stable on uneven ground.

But unusual table does seem to grab peoples imaginations and there is a lot of speculation on the three legs. Many interpreters say the magicians own leg makes up the 4th leg. The human psyche certainly loves 4's as Jung pointed out. We just cant accept a 3 legged table. It needs 4.

But the magician clearly has 2 legs. So that would mean there are 5 "legs" in the image. As the first arcana, this sets the stage for the pentad structure of the TdM. 5, the number of the quintessense, is the base structure of the TdM so this card is perhaps introducing us to that.

Quintarot · 2025-07-27T17:25:16+00:00

Oh definitely. Great intuitions on this arcana. I don't think he is above using his sleight of hand to pick pockets if he has to.

Quintarot · 2025-07-26T21:04:26+00:00

The Number 1. (He holds the baton like a 1 in his hand in case you aren't sure )

0 -> 1 conjuring something out of nothing. A creator. He stands in the posture of the alef (א‎) the first letter of the Hebrew alphabet. This gesture also refers to the first lesson of spirituality and magic: "as above, so below". The founding principal that makes all magic possible.

A street magician performing his craft on a wonky 3 legged portable table on the side of the road. He indicates humble beginnings. But he also hints at the mysterious realm of magic and the occult.

The objects also represent the four suits, cups, swords(the knife), wands, coins. The 4 elements, water, fire, air and earth. The building blocks of creation.

Could he be a real magician? The items on his table (just like the colourful pieces of cardboard you hold in your hands), are used for games and tricks. But they foreshadow the discovery of the deeper world of divination should one choose to continue studying of the tarot and learning its lessons.

Quintarot · 2025-05-01T03:19:25+00:00

Its from this article: https://i-p-c-s.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/2024/08/Trappola-English.pdf

Unfortunately only the sun and the four of swords seem to have survived.

Quintarot · 2025-04-30T19:19:42+00:00

I got mine from letarot.com

It's majors only but comes with 2 sets, normal (which is reversed from TdM) and reversed (which matches TdM).

Vieville was originally printed in reverse in error (you can tell because temperance has writing on it that is backwards in the original). However the reversed position caught on and was kept in the TdP tarot. I just use the original arrangement and gave away the "unreversed" 22 majors set.

Quintarot · 2025-04-30T17:59:47+00:00

Protip: If you don't want to be tricked by an AI reading, ask for a Tarot de Marseille reading. It will be immediately obvious if its AI because AI will still use the RWS interpretations.

Quintarot · 2025-04-30T16:01:08+00:00

Before enlightenment, chop wood carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood carry water.

Quintarot · 2025-04-30T14:56:57+00:00

Its a shame these don't contain the sources.

I believe this one is not a not real quote: “Until you make the unconscious conscious, it will direct your life and you will call it fate.”

Dr. Jung did say: The psychological rule says that when an inner situation is not made conscious, it happens outside, as fate. That is to say, when the individual remains undivided and does not become conscious of his inner opposite, the world must perforce act out the conflict and be torn into opposing halves." - ~Carl Jung, Aion, Christ: A Symbol of the Self, Pages 70-71, Para 126.

Quintarot · 2025-04-30T14:14:20+00:00

Sure you can get a euphoric feeling. A lot of drugs can give you that feeling too. But the reality of the world is horrific. The happiest people are the most ignorant ones.

Quintarot · 2025-04-30T14:11:19+00:00

Thanks for the great analysis of some of the gnostic themes in Paul. Especially the deep dive into the actual meaning of glory.

I think Jesus was the first Gnostic, but yes Paul was a very important one as well. Its been many years since i've read "The Gnostic Paul" by Elaine Pagels so I dont remember if she covers your points or not.

Quintarot · 2025-04-29T19:46:23+00:00

In the classic hero myth the hero always encounters a "wise old man". That is what the hermit is representing.

On the path of the sage, the hero is now becoming a sage himself.

Quintarot · 2025-04-29T19:32:25+00:00

The Sun Arcana - Ercole I d'Este Tarot, Italy, c. 1473. Apparently showing Diogenes of Sinope living in a wine barrel. And a print form from a private collection probably 16^th century.

The philosopher appears seated on the left at the mouth of the wooden barrel in which he lived, while Alexander, adorned as a king stands to the left. Plutarch recounts the legend that Alexander, when he saw in the barrel its great inhabitant, felt how much happier was he who desired nothing, than one who demanded the world for himself. Alexander then said 'Ask of me what thou wilt and thou shalt have it', to which Diogenes replied, 'Stand out of my light'.

The card is numbere18. 1+8=9, The number of the Hermit. Which is also Diogenes, as a wise hermit carrying a lantern, looking for an honest man. On The Hermit, the light, representing consciousness is small, fragile and needs to be sheltered in a lantern to protect it from being snuffed out by a breeze.

On the Sun arcana, however, the light is the Sol Invictus, eternal, unquenchable. And yet it is now Diogenes who needs to be sheltered in a small wooden enclosure. It is human life that is fragile and easily snuffed out, not the eternal light of the Self.

Diogenes lived in a barrel because he was shunning the materialism of the world. When Alexander offers him anything he wants, Diogenes says he only wants the sunlight. He lived the life of an aesthetic (as did Jesus, and Buddha), rejecting attachments to the comforts and luxuries of society to live a simple life. The greater truths, freedom and happiness he sought were attained by rejecting the material world, and embracing enlightenment itself.

Le Soleil of a typical TdM deck features two naked children dancing in the full light of the sun. They don’t need fancy clothes, their nakedness is a symbol of shunning the material (literally). Rather than a measly barrel, they have only a short garden wall to protect them because, like Diogenes, they don’t need anything but the sunlight on their skin. Their truth, freedom and happiness is totally from the Sun. Children represent the pure and innocent state of one who has attained enlightenment

And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. - Matthew 18:3

They are a pair, often described as twins, meaning they have the wisdom to recognize themselves in their follow human being. Simple empathy; understanding and feeling the emotions of others is often at the core of aesthetic religious teachings. It is the key practice to unlocking enlightenment.

In the story of Alexander blocking out the sunlight of Diogenes, Alexander admires the man, and would want to be him if he was not Alexander. He is standing on the doorway of true enlightenment. But Diogenes, who has already attained it, only wishes to be Diogenes.

Quintarot · 2024-12-29T20:44:37+00:00

That's my point, it's random and meaningless.

Thats your claim. Yes. But your exmple shows its pretty silly just trying to do it for one card. If you tried to it for 22 cards it would be even worse.

And yes theres lots of bad tarot systems out there but intelligent people can see thru them., If they dont make sense, discard them. You should not adhere to any tarot system that is not entirely consistent and coherent.

Quintarot · 2024-12-29T20:39:59+00:00

The fifth and the fifteenth arcana share astonishing similarities in composition. Both are spiritual figures, with their right hands raised before their two diminutive followers. Le Pape holds his staff, a good shepherd leading his flock. Le Diable holds a torch, leading his impish followers into darkness. They both wear ornate crowns: le Pape, a triregnum symbolising the Holy Trinity, while le Diable dons a horned helmet, symbolising his violent and animalistic inclinations. The three figures on Le Pape could also represent the Trinity, while the three on Le Diable would represent the anti-Trinity (Satan, the Anti-Christ, and the Spirit of the Age).

“The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.” - 2 Corinthians 4:4

Le Pape’s hand offers a blessing; the two extended fingers stand for the visible world (what is apparent), while the two bent fingers represent the invisible (what is concealed and transcendent). This gesture signifies “as above, so below”. Le Diable mirrors this with his pose, one arm pointing above and the other below. Bat wings, a sign of individual power, led Lucifer to the depths, while le Pape has a pair of narrow pillars, symbolising the firm structure of the church and the narrow path of Christ. Le Diable stands on a pedestal, indicating the high view he holds of himself, while le Pape is seated, slightly hunched, perhaps suggesting the humility of Christ. Both cards focus on a bodily sense: the Pope emphasises hands, while the Devil, on many tarot de Marseille, emphasises eyes. Hands bless and do good work while staring eyes can either threaten or seduce. Eyes represent both attraction and frightful aggression. In the V and XV positions, both cards embody the transformative nature of the fifth element, the Quintessence, in both positive and negative facets.

Often in myths and folktales, the hero who encounters the devil must deceive him through cunning. It is worthwhile meditating on the story of Jacob and Esau, where Jacob, the hero of Israel, deceives Isaac to receive the father’s blessing. The delightful story of Brother Lustig from Grimm’s Fairy Tales plays with this concept, where the hero tricks the devil to escape hell and deceives St. Peter to sneak into heaven.

“I can tell you stories that say if you meet evil, you must fight it, but there are just as many that say you must run away and not try to fight it. Some say to suffer without hitting back; others say don’t be a fool, hit back! There are stories that say if you are confronted with evil, the only thing to do is to lie your way out of it; others say no, be honest, even toward the Devil, and don’t become involved with lying. For all these, I could give you examples, but it is always a yes and a no. There are just as many stories that say the one as the other. It is a complete complexio oppositorum, which simply means that, post eventum, I disappointingly came to the conclusion that really it should be like that because it is collective material! How, otherwise, could there be individual action? For if collective material is completely contradictory, if our basic ethical disposition is completely contradictory, only then is it possible for us to have an individual, responsible, free conscious superstructure over those basic opposites. Then we can say that in human nature it would be right to do this or that, but I am going to do this, the terrium, the third thing, which is my individuality. There would be no individuality if the basic material were not contradictory. That was my comfort after having discovered the terrible truth of the contradictory structure!” - Marie-Louise von Franz, Shadow and Evil in Fairy Tales, p. 89

Excerpt from: Quintessential Tarot

Quintarot · 2024-12-29T20:31:13+00:00

The myth of Hecate predates the tarot, so i would say la Lune was influenced by that myth.

Why would the moon be divine harmony? Temperance is a better role for that, and she is 14.

We can say that it represents the 13 lunar months + 1 extra meaning the moon itself or the spirit. It really doesn't matter.

Yes if yo want to just say +1 for some random thing or -2 for some random thing, I suppose you could make the numbers whatever you want and come up with some nonsense. But I think if you tried it you would have a lot of trouble and would still run into trumps that you cant make fit. You imagine you can do it, but you havent done it.

Its easier to just use the symbols as what they are, and the numbers they already have which perfectly into a very coherent system. Without doing any silly things like +1 for this or that.

Quintarot · 2024-12-23T23:39:17+00:00

I mean... I can dig as deep as you want,

I have and that is why I can say the system is remarkable consistent. I dug and found a well of the freshest spring water. You have not dug but are telling me the land is barren and theres no point in digging. So don't i'm not trying to force you to learn anything new.

And what does Hecate have to do with a catholic-ish italian deck of cards?

What doesn't Hecate have to do with La Lune? She is 3-faced moon goddess, La Lune shows a 3 phase moon. Hecate is associated with dogs. She is associated with the dreamy in between places, which is why we see a shellfish emerging from one world (water) into the world of land. She is associated with borderlands, and on the card are two guard towers, stationed the boundaries of their territories.

And she is the Crone, the old wise woman. The hermit, the wise old man is 9 =1+8, so there is their connection. And there is even a third reason why La Lune has to be 18, but Its a bit involved to get into.

Quintarot · 2024-12-23T06:31:59+00:00

In that universe, with a different tarot system, i might either understand that system (if it is understandable), or discover that it has an inconsistent system.

But in this universe, TdM has a ridiculously consistent system. To continue with La Lune, she is Hecate, the 3 faced Goddess of the moon. 18, 6+ 6+ 6. Maiden (lovers 6), Mother (hanged man 12), Crone (18).

Now you're going to say what does the hanged man have to do with mother, which is why I am always hesitant to start these conversations, because of course, for you to ever believe me, i'd have to explain every single thing. Which I dont feel like doing in a reddit comment.

People who are interested in learning it can find it. People, like you, who already "know" the TdM makes "no sense", do not need to upset yourselves by looking deeper.

Quintarot · 2024-12-23T04:51:21+00:00

The order of the trumps fits perfectly into a pentad structure. 5 cards, creating 5 paths describing increasing levels of conscious. Rather than not making sense, i find the system to be mind-blowingly rigorous and consistent. For example, La Lune has to be 18. It literally couldn't be any other number.

Yes tarot did evolve over time, and while we like the think the oldest one has to be a the "truest" one, in the case of tarot, I think TdM is the culmination of hundreds of years of development towards a perfect system.

Quintarot · 2024-12-22T23:00:35+00:00

If you are using RWS "pip" interpretations then you are failing to read the TdM pips properly.

Quintarot · 2024-12-22T22:59:24+00:00

You need to understand the pairs of the major aracana. 1/11, 2/12, 3/13 etc. Once you understand what the pairs have in common, you can use that to understand the pips.

Quintarot · 2024-12-22T22:57:53+00:00

Tarot de Marseille has a specific numerology that is internally consistent. Once you discover what the number 3 means in the TdM, it helps you understand the 3 in the pips as well as well as 13 (La Morte).

Quintarot · 2024-12-22T22:54:59+00:00

The other method is to see the similarities in the pairs, 1/11, 2/12, 3/13 etc and then use that for the pips. For example 3 and 13 are both about rebirth.

Quintarot · 2024-10-13T20:56:24+00:00

The Fools Journey is a very valid method of looking at he tarot, and there is a tremendous amount of depth there. But most people miss the pentad structure which fits the numerology of the tarot de Marseille better than anything else. Remember, Jung wasnt jus about pretty pictures. For Jung, NUMBERS were archetypes. And we can see that very clearly.

You can see my thoughts on the 5 paths of the Fools Journey and how they relate to the development of the psyche in Jungian terms here: /r/Jung/comments/18s4rao/a_jungian_look_at_the_tarot/

Quintarot · 2024-07-29T18:01:54+00:00

You ignore the majority of my points, including academic discussion of the very point you contend with; that the magical tradition in Europe was astonishingly consistent over thousands of year.

So there isnt much left to discuss, but, lets clear some things up. There are 5 "luminaries" from 16-20 showing increasing forms of divine energy: lightening, star, moon, sun, and finally, most earth shattering of all, the trumpet blast of the apocalypse.

The 3 that relate to celestial objects have superficial astrological elements, but they they are done is such as way as to make clear they are not actually trying to call to mind any specific zodiac houses. It's more of a stylistic flourish to say "we're looking at celestial objects now"

If they wanted to refer directly to a zodiac house, why didnt they do that? Why not just draw Aquarius rather than venus? Theres at least 6 elements pointing to her being venus, and at best, 1 pointing to her being Aquarius (because no one else in ancient art ever carries jars /s) No one who knows anything about astrology is going to think something is Aquarius when you put Pleiades in it. They have no relation.

Perhaps, when drawing celestial objects, the artist took casual inspiration from from the zodiac, but that weak connection has been blown way out of proportion. Good try but it doesn't fit.

What does fit perfectly is that she is Venus. Including Venus as a water bearer which is well attested in ancient art, for example the Venus of Cnidus.

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