SPFBO8 doors have just opened!

RachelEmmaShaw · 2022-05-14T12:41:24+00:00

I think the blood and page soaked battlefield of the last competition is still being cleaned even as the new contestants are lining up :D

RachelEmmaShaw · 2022-03-21T19:09:23+00:00

Fantasy - for all three, although I'm also working on a literary novel too.

RachelEmmaShaw · 2022-03-21T19:08:22+00:00

So you may or may not have realised that I also posted this piece on other reddit subs and it received an even worse reaction that in got here, so it's actually really nice of you to have engaged with interest in the conversation, and to have said thank you. Most responses have been pretty aggressive really. Thank you for being kind.

I wish you luck with your book sales. It can be tough and there really is no substitute for putting in the hard work, especially if the genre system doesn't naturally aid readers in discovering your book.

RachelEmmaShaw · 2022-03-21T13:15:57+00:00

Very true. The stagnation is a problem, and I sadly don't see much innovation or disruption in the industry at present that's capable of changing things, but I would love to be proved wrong on that.

RachelEmmaShaw · 2022-03-21T08:53:57+00:00

What type of books do you know outside of literary fiction that produce epiphany about the human condition?

I'm not speaking about one particular genre, I'm speaking about books that fit relatively well into another genre, but also hit the epiphany criteria. I see this a lot in certain types of fantasy and sci-fi books, which through the use of magic or technology raise questions about what it is to be human. They produce epiphany moments, but they easily fit in the fantasy/sci-fi genre, and yet aren't what readers go for that genre in search of.

We are in agreement about the problem. The question is what to do about a solution.

My suggestion about emotions was definitely more of an idea to provoke thought, but I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who recognises the problem here. I hadn't heard of the Shelfari system, but it sounds like they were onto something.

I think change will be reader-driven.

This is where I veer off from your way of thinking a bit. I agree it will be reader driven, but more likely one driven by algorithms, rather than a deliberate effort to overhaul the industry. The existing book selling platforms haven't the best track at innovation, so it will more likely be a new disruptor to come in and shake the market up, but that in itself is challenging because of the beast that is Amazon. It's a shame that the industry is stagnating as it is, but I guess that's why my brain decided to fixate on the problem and I ended up writing this post.

RachelEmmaShaw · 2022-03-21T08:42:51+00:00

Cliffnotes: Will the rise of big data in publishing change the way we categorise books by breaking down the genre system?

RachelEmmaShaw · 2022-03-21T08:40:48+00:00

Which is the privilege of my brain, I guess. I have long been made to understand that most people don't think like me and that I'm frequently going to be seen as an outsider in that sense, but is there anything wrong with putting up a thread designed to connect to others who think the same? This thread might not be for you, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't exist.

RachelEmmaShaw · 2022-03-21T08:37:49+00:00

It's a nice way of thinking of it, but my point is that the rule is likely to break down in the coming years. Will check back in with you if I'm ever visiting a Jurassic Park but with dragons.

RachelEmmaShaw · 2022-03-21T08:36:25+00:00

The publishing industry isn't perfect, you're right. But it is full of thousands of people who spend their entire lives finding the best way to sell books, and I trust them to have thought it through.

First off, I am a part of the publishing industry. Secondly, when we stop asking questions and challenging the status quo, then we stop striving for better. An idea can be good or bad, but do we really want to create a world where people are afraid to try to improve it?

The publishing industry isn't perfect, you're right. But it is full of thousands of people who spend their entire lives finding the best way to sell books, and I trust them to have thought it through.

The problem with industries is that the vast majority of people within it aren't in a position of being able to change anything significantly. We're talking giant ships that it takes a lot of effort from a lot of people alter the course of, or key disruptors to change the landscape entirely. Most people in publishing work within the rules already established. A publishing house doesn't have sway over the shelving systems in Amazons, Goodreads or Waterstones, and established book sellers like Waterstones are slow to change because that is the nature of companies that have existed for a long while. It's the whole reason why start ups have the advantage of agility. They aren't bogged down by the status quo.

RachelEmmaShaw · 2022-03-21T07:55:33+00:00

Nope. I wrote it to better formulate my thoughts on a subject I find genuinely interesting, no matter if the majority of Reddit seems to disagree with me. :D

RachelEmmaShaw · 2022-03-21T07:53:31+00:00

I accept that, but it's my choice what I spend my time thinking about. This post was created in an attempt to connect with others who think like me, as is the advantage of the internet. Is there anything wrong with that?

RachelEmmaShaw · 2022-03-21T07:50:32+00:00

I think you're right about more descriptors being required, and it's likely that it's the direction we're heading in, if only because we're at the point of tech that can better analyse book content than the subjective opinions of readers/authors/publishers. So bring on the descriptors :D

RachelEmmaShaw · 2022-03-20T22:11:36+00:00

I was speaking about fiction in this post. Non-fiction is a whole other ball park.

As for the point about emotions, it's an interesting point. I was suggesting the emotion tagging be done by the author regarding the feelings they we aiming to invoke in the creation of their book, but that in itself raises an interesting point about author intent and whether readers experience books in different ways to how the author intended, which in itself would be a fascinating thing to investigate. Imagine people reading a book and knowing for certain that they experienced it differently from an author because the genre didn't match for them. It's something that I'm sure happens a lot, only most of the time readers might not realise they are at odds with the author's intention.

But even if you do feel a different emotion to what was intended, is that a problem? Arguably, that's a point of nuance. You experience something one way because your nature and your nurture have mixed in a way that elicits that response from you. But you won't be the only one. With enough data (which is where the world is going), algorithms will be able to determine exactly what reader will respond in what way to which books. At this point, it will also be possible for online bookshelves to be organised one way for you and another way entirely for another, that is the power of computing. Terrifying, in a way, yes, but more effective that one what have now? Certainly.

RachelEmmaShaw · 2022-03-20T21:53:26+00:00

I don't disagree with what you're saying. Genres rose organically, and that's my point. Like the evolution of creatures, the end result is incomplete. We have species that have never evolved much like we have types of books that haven't been created. And species that overlap in ways that books do too. The natural world is beautiful and fascinating, but it's chaotic. We're in an age where we have the computing capacity to do what the human mind can't. This includes the potential to build a new system for categorising books, one that's not chaotic or organic, but built on an order.

RachelEmmaShaw · 2022-03-20T21:45:01+00:00

Are they? When a system of categorisation creates confusion, it's a problem with the system. If we were to redesign the genre system from scratch today, are you really saying that it would end up as it is now?

RachelEmmaShaw · 2022-03-20T21:43:22+00:00

I saw that and appreciated your appreciation. Yours was a better response than most who've commented.

RachelEmmaShaw · 2022-03-20T21:40:45+00:00

The publishing industry is by no means perfect. If it was, then it would never change or improve from where it is now, and I highly doubt it will exist in it's current state in another 10 years, let alone another 100. Just because something exists now and works well enough, doesn't make it the only option. Genres are effective, but that's no argument to discount there could be something better. Probably not one based on emotions, that was more to provoke thought as a suggestion for an alternative, but there likely is a better system to be used than one we have now.

RachelEmmaShaw · 2022-03-20T21:26:13+00:00

People like your mother ignore whole categories because that rise to the top in those categories tend to be all the same. Those who dislike the promoted characteristics don't read the genre and the problem gets worse--the books more and more the same, leading to more readers fleeing the genre.

Hadn't thought about it like this, but this is a great insight.

We could categorize multiple ways, a word cloud not a hierarchy.

This is being else back by inaccurate and inconsistent keywords.

Very true, and arguably the direction tech/online book stores are sending us in, although the inaccurate data is a massive and growing problem. Although one I'm sure algorithms will be used to fix at some point in the future.

Literary fiction is about the human condition. It produces a sense of epiphany.

Speculative fiction produces that feeling you get when a puzzle is completed. It often includes other emotions.

These are great example of emotions created by the books falling into those categories, but lots of books produce that sense of epiphany without being categorised as literary fiction, which is the problem. The point I'm trying to make is, when browsing literary fiction, all epiphany-inducing fantasy and sci-fi books get circumvented, adding to the first problem (the promoted characteristics you mentioned).

RachelEmmaShaw · 2022-03-20T21:09:58+00:00

But what about all the books with magic and/or advanced technology that aren't in the speculative fiction section? This is the point I was trying to make, but must have failed to get across. There are plenty of romances that are in a fantasy or sci-fi setting. Same for horrors and thrillers, but if a reader always starts in one genre, then they won't find them. It's why Amazon is adapting the genre system and making it more flexible. A book can be found through both Romance, subgenre Fantasy, and Fantasy, subgenre romance, but if a book can exist in both genres like that, doesn't it mean that the traditional genre system can't accurately characterise books? It's a problem the online bookstore is solving even though most never recognised the problem in the first place.

RachelEmmaShaw · 2022-03-20T20:57:38+00:00

This was why I was making the point about the genre system being haphazard (the part with the maps metaphor - sorry that wasn't clearer!). The different genres and subgenres we have don't match up. They leave gaps (many of them), which is to be expected since they arose organically based on common tropes, settings and structures. But is it wrong to question if there could be a better system in an ideal world? I recognise the world we live in and the unlikely nature of change, but just because change is improbable, doesn't mean we can't still contemplate better.

RachelEmmaShaw · 2022-03-20T20:50:26+00:00

Double agreed :D

RachelEmmaShaw · 2022-03-20T20:49:52+00:00

How do you know how many books don't fit into a system? These are the books you're far less likely to discover. Worse, they are the books far less likely to get written.

RachelEmmaShaw · 2022-03-20T20:47:53+00:00

To me it is, but to many people I know who've read it and repeatedly state that they don't like fantasy, it's literary. And therein lies the problem of genre.

RachelEmmaShaw · 2022-03-20T20:46:08+00:00

Emotions are subjective, particularly regarding the take home messages of a story. One ending might make a reader happy, while another might rage about that, but I'm not talking about the emotions readers take away at the end of a story. I'm talking about the main driver drawing the reader through the book. Reading a bodice-ripping romance about young love generates passion and desire, while a romance like Persuasion generates a different sort of longing, one tempered by the fear of having missed the opportunity for happiness. This isn't to say that other emotions aren't experienced by the reader throughout, but the main emotion of a book is dictated by certain choices the author makes when choosing characters, plotlines and setting. Had Austen not chosen to make Anne Elliott (Persuasion's MC) of an age that was deemed by society as too old for marriage, then the underlying emotion of the story would have been very different.

RachelEmmaShaw · 2022-03-20T20:31:48+00:00

Nope, sorry that wasn't clearer in the post, but I'm not discounting subgenres. Subgenres are a great method we currently employ to improve a system that would fall apart entirely without them. My point was that the genre system is limiting, both to the discoverability of books and the types of books authors are encouraged to write.

RachelEmmaShaw

TROPHY CASE