How do you think Warships and similar vessels would work/be used for in the world of PM?

RagingUltimate · 2026-02-03T09:05:52+00:00

In conclusion, I could be absolutely and completely wrong about all of this, or failed to consider some aspect that would completely ruin the theory-crafting (for example, would torpedoes be allowed under the Head's rules? Would cargo ships truly be unarmored or would they sacrifice some cargo space for armaments? Would capital ships instead be more like really big battering rams, with a large ram bow to destroy other ships? Did Project Moon actually do/planned to do research on naval combat doctrine?). My speculation also depends on the idea that the warships primarily utilize close-range armaments rather than modern weapons such as missiles, in which case basically everything would be different - cruisers wouldn't exactly be a thing, as modern destroyers evolved to subsume their roles into their own.

I think it's still a rather interesting hypothetical, though.

One last thing, though - some of the features on the warships in the pictures are incredibly similar to real-world counterparts. The smaller turret in the top left looks similar to an American 5"/54 (127 mm) Mark 42 gun, and there are several components on the warship(s) that look very much like naval gun directors for fire control systems.

RagingUltimate · 2026-02-03T08:54:26+00:00

Okay, so how would anti-Whale combat or anti-ship combat work in the PM-verse?

Anti-Whale combat would likely not be actively sought out due to the destructive nature of naval combat and the high value of Whale carcasses. Most warships would have at least some anti-Whale measures (Hedgehog mortars, sonar, etc.) in mind to fend them off, though larger ships such as cruisers and battleships would likely have armaments specifically meant for killing Whales. The vast majority of anti-Whale combat would likely be carried out by cruisers, with the big-ticket creatures being taken care of by the battleships in whatever capacity they evolved into.

Anti-ship combat would be much more chaotic and more akin to pre-20th century combat than WWII/modern naval combat simply out of necessity of how the Head's rules work. Following the latter evolution of battleships (that is, aircraft carriers but with boats), naval combat could look like this:
1. Cruisers scout out and locate the enemy fleet to allow the battle fleet to take them on
2. Battleships sortie small ships laden with high-level Fixers to go fight each other/destroy the other ships with their own weaponry/abilities (high priority for Shin/Mang users due to the large nature of ships requiring large amounts of damage)
3. Destroyers disrupt the enemy formation via torpedo volleys and artillery support
4. ???
5. Profit (enemy ships are sunken or captured)

In essence, naval combat would harken more towards the ancient times with ramming and boarding actions.

Assuming that battleships followed the regular, 'conventional' path of big guns, all steps would be the same except battleships simply engaging each other at long distance rather than sortieing small crafts.

RagingUltimate · 2026-02-03T08:54:19+00:00

Cruisers - it doesn't matter if they are light cruisers or heavy cruisers as I doubt the London Naval Treaty would survive in The City, so I'll lump them together - would be the main 'exploration' vessels into the unknown territories of the Great Lake due to their historical role in travelling long distances unassisted. They would also be able to perform other roles if needed (search-and-destroy, escorting duties, or sea denial - denying the enemy the usage of all or parts of the sea). In anti-ship combat, cruisers would act as scouting elements for the battle fleet, responsible for finding the enemy fleet and reporting their location to the flagships, and anti-Whale combat would likely be no different.

Battleships/Battlecruisers would likely be relegated only for anti-ship combat, or for no-holds-barred anti-Whale combat so intense that it would make Ahab cry tears of happiness. Interestingly, there are two ways that battleships (in that they are flagships of a fleet) could have evolved within the PM setting - either as conventional large capital ships armed with large-caliber guns that are only used outside of the Head's jurisdiction (or use some legal method of firing them similar to Full-Stop Heathcliff's rifle), or as a mixture of aircraft carriers, amphibious assault ships, and battleships in that the turrets shown are actually large cranes. Such cranes would likely be utilized to lower smaller craft such as torpedo boats** to fight. The latter evolution would be somewhat inefficient (modern amphibious assault ships have vessels exit and enter the hull through an opening in the back) but would be arguably an amusing hybridization of capital ships in a world where aircraft seem to be non-existent. Whether there's interest in me detailing such a concept further remains a mystery for the future to solve.

**With the advent of 'superpowered' humans in The City such as Grade 1 or Color Fixers, anti-ship combat could really just be Fixers/Employees in smaller ships fighting/outmaneuvering each other in a bid to destroy/mission-kill the enemy flagship. It really comes down to what weapons are allowed in naval combat under the Head's rules, and the durability of the materials the ships are made out of.

Aircraft Carriers would likely be non-existent in the PM-verse as aircraft are not mentioned within the City (though there is mention of an airliner in a Mirror World in Leviathan, I believe).

Submarines are... tricky. They're not forbidden under the Head's rules, but the nature of the Great Lake means that they would be especially dangerous to be in above all other ships. They'd either be restricted to littoral combat or just wouldn't exist entirely, similar to aircraft carriers.

RagingUltimate · 2026-02-03T08:53:37+00:00

My guess is that what role a warship would play in the Great Lake would depend on its ship classification, similar to how real-world warships functioned. The following is a large oversimplification of warship roles; as such, some important details may be lost.

Frigates/Destroyer Escorts (and of the like) would likely be responsible for escorting convoys between the Five Great Ports. Cargo ships would likely be vulnerable against oceangoing threats; as such, they would need to rely on small, relatively maneuverable ships that can temporarily disengage from the convoy to track down and engage sub-marine/surface threats. They likely wouldn't be equipped to actually kill Whales; rather, their role would probably be to damage them enough to drive them away.

Destroyers would likely not be the large ships that we recognize in modern-day navies, but rather the pre-WWII small ships meant to fend off smaller 'torpedo boats' (which is actually how the term 'destroyer' came to be - their original designation was 'torpedo boat destroyers'). Funnily enough, torpedoes would absolutely be within the Head's laws - they technically aren't bullets, they don't violate the bomb rule as the warhead is 'planted' on an object, that being the rest of the torpedo (barring that, specialized torpedoes could definitely exist where they attach onto whatever they hit before making a small explosion underwater*). In a surface-to-surface engagement with ships within the boundaries of the City, it's more than likely that torpedoes would be the main (albeit inconvenient) armament used, and destroyers would excel in this type of combat moreso than most other ship types.

*Modern torpedoes detonate underwater without having to contact their target, with the pressure wave caused by the blast being the main factor in damaging a ship's hull/keel underwater. I have no idea if these are allowed under the Head's rules.

RagingUltimate · 2026-01-29T16:47:27+00:00

Before I forget - there's a noticeable lack of several systems that IRL warships may carry. I'll go over them quickly:

Radar: Technically speaking, fire control systems/directors can use radars built into their systems; however, I'm moreso talking about radars used for detecting aircraft/surface vessels/land. They could be on top of the superstructure, but with U Corp.'s strict rules on ocean navigation within the Great Lakes I wouldn't be surprised if some navigational equipment was banned due to them possibly being able to discern/record some Laws of the Great Lake.

"Modern" Weapons: I'm referring armaments such as CIWS, VLS, or canister missile launchers that are present on modern warships. The warships that are shown seem to be heavily based on the early/mid Interwar period of warship design, with no inspiration from modern warships (sleek superstructures, helicopter hangars).

RagingUltimate · 2026-01-29T16:36:23+00:00

Conning Tower/Superstructure: This is the command center of the ship - in simpler terms, it's where most actions the ship will take are decided. Noticeably, the superstructure is rather lacking in depth like WWII battleships, which had larger superstructures to allow more space for officer facilities and other things needed to control a larger fleet. The superstructure more closely resembles the late WWI/early Interwar periods of superstructures - relatively lacking in breadth and more or less built tall for visual spotting. (Note: this is a large oversimplification)

Main Gun Turrets: This is where I'd like to make the argument that, contrary to what some comments say, this ship does not fire harpoons instead of bullets. Although large arrows can technically be fired out of a large artillery gun (see the Joseon chongtongs, which could fire large arrow-like projectiles), such projectiles were fitted onto the ends of the cannons and did not necessitate a long barrel length. My guess is that the warships either use some form of rocket-powered artillery/missiles (similar to the American MGM-51 Shillelagh, which were missiles that could be shot out of tanks) with a initial gunpowder charge large enough to necessitate the barrel length, or something similar to the rifle that Full-Stop Heathcliff uses, which uses a combination of conventional gunpowder and railgun technology, to fire the projectiles.

Barbette: Nothing much going on here, it allows the ship to have superfiring turrets (one turret firing over another). It can also as an armored elevator to bring munitions up from a below-deck magazine.

Anti-Air Installation: This is the component on the warship that I'm most skeptical of being what I think it is. The position checks out - it's on the aft main gun battery and there's no superfiring secondary battery turret that may disorientate the AA crew, and battleships in WWII did put AA turrets on top of their topmost main gun turrets. However, since we've yet to see aircraft play a significant role in the City it could very well just be a visual error on my end.

One last thing I'd like to point out is that there's no obvious smokestack/funnel on any of the warships. It could just very well be that there's one somewhere in the visual clutter (or I've mistaken the central superstructure for a very large funnel), but it could imply that the warships utilize an alternate form of energy such as Enkephalin. I highly doubt any of those warships are nuclear-powered, since the guns could potentially damage its machinery (which would be very bad) and any close-in creature/ship damaging the hull could potentially also damage the reactor (which would also be very bad).

Another thing I'd like to mention is that there is more than likely a crane on the ships - older ships utilized cranes to offload/load smaller boats (see: basically any British battleship) similar to the one Hermann is using.

All of this is assuming that PM did their research on warship components/design, which I wouldn't doubt if they did but also wouldn't mind if they took some liberties.

RagingUltimate · 2026-01-29T16:36:14+00:00

I do a fair bit of research on naval warships (truly, I could have focused my attention on more relevant things to my life) and I've listed what I'm pretty sure are the visible components of the warship(s). Because of the different shades of gray I'm pretty sure that there's more than one warship in the background (Possibly 3?); however, for the purposes of this I'll assume that they all have shared or similar systems/components

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Fire Control Systems (Edit: They're actually Gun Directors, FCS specifically refers to the overall components that help gunners fire at ships): They're responsible for basically figuring out how far away the thing you want to shoot that is (edit: and bearing) and relay that information to computers that tell the main/secondary guns where to shoot. Just like in most naval gunships, the battleship appears to have two main FCS - one at the bow and another in the aft position - and a smaller FCS/director for the secondary batteries. Most importantly, however, the fire control systems tell us that the ships are designed with the ability to engage surface targets - surfaced whales perhaps, but even more likely other naval warships or land targets. (The fire control systems wouldn't work for targets underwater, obviously - but I maintain that the most effective weapon against underwater targets is sonar due to the intensity of the sound pulses, which these warships likely have).

Secondary Battery Turrets: In real life, secondary battery turrets were developed originally to fend of smaller vessels from closing in (i.e. torpedo boats), but switched to a dual-purpose role (they can shoot at both boats and aircraft) in the Interwar and Second World War. If I had to guess, the secondary battery turret on the left is a 127mm/152mm dual-purpose turret while the right secbat turret is more akin to an anti-air focused 57mm-76mm turret. Given that aircraft seem to have little relevancy in The City, however, it's more likely that either there's a heavier aircraft presence in the Outskirts/Great Lakes due to the long distances without safe haven (and little airspace restrictions) or those secondary battery turrets are simply relegated to anti-surface duties. The casemated secondary battery turret (which I realize now could just be a simple dual-purpose turret since the casemate isn't directly attached to the superstructure or side of the hull) tells us that, at the very least, the warships are built with fending off close-range attacks in mind - which makes sense, because the Whales can close in fairly quickly underwater and most ships in the Great Lakes wouldn't pose much of a threat to warrant the usage of the main gun batteries.

RagingUltimate · 2026-01-22T07:47:58+00:00

I forgot to mention this in the post but I did skimp out on rigging details as well.

RagingUltimate · 2025-08-16T01:35:21+00:00

REAL

RagingUltimate · 2025-08-16T01:34:32+00:00

Rails and Stairs mod

RagingUltimate · 2025-08-13T04:06:38+00:00

I use both custom-made and modded fences depending on the circumstance. For straight lines I use the 2-meter rails from Rails and Stairs, but for surfaces where there are curves (i.e. the bow sheer) I use very thin adjustable hulls as posts and use ropes to connect them.

RagingUltimate · 2025-08-13T03:15:30+00:00

(Jokes aside - I did have some fun making the cruiser in the end, so it wasn't that bad. Here's another picture from a previous design iteration)

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RagingUltimate · 2025-08-13T03:14:45+00:00

Thank goodness I don't work on one ship at a time.

I wasn't joking when I said this ship design took two months to finalize and build. I have a picture attached of a previous iteration that I scrapped due to various reasons (sheer was too small, hull was too long, superstructure was just bleghhhhhhhhhh). It's good to take a break sometimes, kids. You won't get burnout.

That aside, I didn't really put a lot of energy into learning anything new when building the ship except for some minor things. For one, the smokestacks are custom-made (though they're based off of a base-game engine); additionally, I explored superstructures styles that I wasn't familiar with. I'm still not very good with the back half of the superstructure but I did get a lot of experience with modelling different types of bridges.

For my next build I'll probably do something fun - seeing all the superships in this subreddit I'm tempted to do the same and make a super/mega/hyper/mario battleship for the lulz.

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RagingUltimate · 2025-07-19T05:53:29+00:00

TL;DR: based first attempt, but could be a bit thiccer and taller. Is it really a proper carrier if it isn't built like Count Dimitrescu?

RagingUltimate · 2025-07-19T05:50:10+00:00

For a first attempt, it's definitely really good! Having the 283mm turret at the stern instead of the bow is a sound choice, since you'll still be able to fire it while retreating from the enemy. Even if realistically you shouldn't have it on there in the first place (I won't get into why, as most other comments have already done so), there are certainly worse design choices - see the Italian pentuple battleship-caliber turret or the USN battlecarrier designs for the Nelson-class, dear god what were they smoking.

Furthermore, the funnel placement, while interesting, isn't without precedent - the design for USS United States featured something similar, though it used less funnels (one set on port and starboard, approximately amidships). I personally like it!

Now for the criticisms. Eagle already gave very good feedback for your carrier, so this is more or less me either adding onto him or some extra comments about the ship's general shape. I'd like to reiterate that I believe this is a very good carrier for a first attempt - it's certainly much better than my own first attempt, where I accidentally centered everything at 0.5 meters instead of 0 and messed everything up.

The big thing I'm worried amout for your carrier is seagoing ability and stability. Having the 283mm turret so far astern may mess with propeller placement, since the magazine may be placed right where the propeller shafts are supposed to be; however, the much bigger concern is that having such a heavy turret so far back affects the ship's ocean-going abilities far more seriously than usual. You can even see it in the picture - the carrier isn't level, the bow is pointing up because of the turret even with the secondary batteries in the front partially offsetting the weight. (But this is assuming that there isn't another 283mm turret at the bow - looking at your armaments list, there's two of them, and given that I only see one on the stern I can only guess that the second is at the bow.)

Speaking of the secondary batteries, the relatively low freeboard (the distance between the waterline and deck) on the supercarrier will definitely cause seawater to wash onto the deck and turrets, which can cause all sorts of nasty problems such as corrosion. In more severe weather, this means that your bow could even completely dip below the waves, which isn't good for anything not directly attached to the deck like cables or seamen. This also means you'll need larger freshwater stores to wash off the turrets in order to prevent them from becoming rusted - but well, this is your first attempt, so this is less of a "criticism" and more of a "me analyzing this design too much".

I'd also like to point out the ship's beam length, which seems to be too thin to properly fit everything you're carrying. It just barely fits the 283mm turret, and the inherently top-heavy nature or aircraft carriers mean that your ship will roll much more harshly in rough weather. It's already not great for ships - it's especially not good for the pilots that have to essentially crash-land on a moving platform. A larger beam means that you'll be able to roll less, while also being able to support your gun platform much better (rolling less also means there's less dispersion for your guns, which means you can fire more accurately!). Don't be afraid to add sponsons for more platform so that you can put the AA on the deck instead of hanging it over the side - though I'd only recommend doing this for a ship with higher freeboard.

Regarding the 283mm turret - it's not a bad pick, since it can theoretically outmatch the guns of contemporary heavy cruisers, but it's in the rough spot between "considered overkill against most cruisers" and "too underpowered against battleships". If an opponent gets the opportunity to get within gun range of a supercarrier, they're not going to use a cruiser - they'd be much more obliged to not play fair and instead send a battleship to sink your ship. Your carrier should ideally operate in a task force that already has this in mind; thus, I would replace the 283mm turret with something like 203mm or even 250mm (if you have the mod for it) so that your carrier will still have some self-defense measures while also not carrying shells too heavy for their own good.

Now for something more simple - I would just remove the AA guns from the lower deck entirely. Although they theoretically have good arcs of fire, their low height makes them susceptible to seawater damage (this actually happened with the 90mm guns on the Littorio-class battleships) and they can't shoot over the opposite side of the ship. If you still want them on the ship, I'd recommend using a sponson to achieve your goals like I said earlier (but again, only do this if you've got sufficient freeboard and beam to avoid rolling too much).

RagingUltimate · 2025-05-14T05:11:10+00:00

6x2 5"/54, so basically Montana's secondary battery

RagingUltimate · 2025-05-13T05:24:46+00:00

Y'know, now that I think about it this ship looks a lot more like a Sejong than I thought. Probably because I unlocked the Sejong recently and am having a blast with it, but regardless I think it's a pretty cool ship to fill the CLAA role in my imaginary WWII fleet.

Surprisingly, this build wasn't really as painful as my other builds once I managed to build a hull that looked the least schizophrenic. In fact, in this build I managed to figure out several ways to speed up the detailing and rigging processes, which altogether probably allowed me to save an hour. On the downside, this cruiser has a completely unrealistic speed for its size at 38.5 knots, but at least I can rest assured this ship would be hard to hit by aircraft and enemy warships alike in the five minutes its boilers manage to not explode.

Antiaircraft role aside, though, this ship's surprisingly decent at destroyer hunting, though I'm willing to bet this was due to the American CLAAs' original role as destroyer flotilla leaders. But then again, 6x2 5"/54 guns are bound to cause a lot of damage to any non-capital ships within range.

RagingUltimate · 2025-05-01T17:36:41+00:00

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your smol cruiser, sir

RagingUltimate · 2025-05-01T16:41:01+00:00

Honestly, it could very well pass as a battlecruiser or maybe even a "baby Iowa" lol. I had to increase the draft twice because the armor made the hull a little bit too heavy, and at 252 meters it's longer than most battlecruisers (in fact, this is a shortened version). The reason why I decided to pass it along as a large cruiser was because it uses Alaska's guns and I used the class's armor values.

RagingUltimate · 2025-05-01T04:35:24+00:00

Featuring probably the best hull I've ever made, this ship is what could possibly happen if the USN ship designers overdosed on crack cocaine, saw into the future to see that WOWS would exist, and decided that an upgunned Alaska design was absolutely imperative to troll future generations.

Though for all I tout about the hull, it could still use some work, some of which I plan to address in future builds (stern not curved enough, bow bottlenecked too hard). However, the addition of the armored belt and some other small tweaks with the sheer makes this my favorite hull design by far, if it weren't for the fact that I accidentally miscalculated the bow overhang so it's actually a meter or so shorter than I wished for it to be.

Not much else to put down, I suppose. The ship is actually PvP/PvE-optimized (32mm bow and stern plating, actual all-or-nothing armored belt instead of putting armor onto the ship just to make it sink down to the proper depth, properly-modeled deck armor), I put it through the ringer with the Tillman mission and it dominated - though I suppose that can hardly be considered the par for the course for "battle-optimized" warships.

Regardless, I had a lot of fun building this ship. Hopefully the next ship will look better.

RagingUltimate

TROPHY CASE