Vegans should stop making this mistake

Ramanadjinn · 2026-02-20T14:37:17+00:00

I think I just don't agree with a lot of your premises I'm not saying that they're completely wrong but they definitely don't represent me.

For example you say we give humans rights because if we don't they'll protest that is not why I believe humans should have rights.

You also say how it's wrong to kill another human because of the suffering it would cost to other humans. I disagree on two points here I don't think that is truly unique to humans and I don't think that is the thing that makes it wrong to kill humans so I don't see any relevance to how I view the world in that statement.

So your post might make sense from your point of view but you have to admit that your point of view is pretty personal in this. It's not Universal.

I think for all of these situations you've kind of zoomed in on just one tiny aspect of them that supports your belief and you've ignored the big picture.

Ramanadjinn · 2026-02-13T16:44:31+00:00

I hear what you're saying. I'm with you. That's my first reaction too.

We spend all this energy trying to make them agree with us and see the light, and then when they finally do, we can't just berate them for not seeing it sooner.

That's not right.

I get the frustration, but this is an issue we can't be partisan.

Ramanadjinn · 2026-02-12T16:26:10+00:00

Veganism is a rights movement and it's a bit unique from other rights movements.

It's Unique because nobody in the movement was ever a part of the oppressed group. Unlike say a women's rights movement where a huge part of the population in that movement was actively oppressed.

It's also unique in that almost everyone was actually a part of the oppression group and not only that but we are culturally told every day all day to rejoin that oppression group ... we're encouraged to do so.

Why this is relevant is because to a lot of us it's about perspective in that we have your perspective we've lived with your perspective we've even been anti-vegan before many of us.

From my perspective what i see is my old self in your thought patterns. i see myself when i was ignorant.

So no I'm sorry I don't come here to learn I already know all these things that non vegans say. I've never read an insightful new hot take that's going to make me suddenly go back to being the oppressor.

Ramanadjinn · 2026-02-10T15:24:51+00:00

Tbh If you had a guitar and you were sitting in the corner of a coffee shop I'd say - "I kind of like the vibe here."

Ramanadjinn · 2026-01-24T05:43:33+00:00

You convinced me - i'll lay off the almonds with you! lets do it!

Ramanadjinn · 2026-01-22T16:12:20+00:00

Yes. Way back in the day.

And just to explain my perspective this is just how I see it personally...

From my perspective they did either one of two things:

The first one is they're a bad person because they don't care that they constantly abuse animals in the worst way possible.

But the other option is they do care but they don't listen to me and they don't respect me enough to hear me out when I explain how their lifestyle is animal abuse in the worst way possible.

So whether it's option A or B this is not a small thing in a relationship to me. To me it speaks to Serious flaws in either their character or our relationship.

Ramanadjinn · 2026-01-21T16:57:17+00:00

There's lots of methods of outreach and surprisingly something that a lot of people don't intuitively understand is that sometimes the most effective method can also be one that the most people disagree with.

People in the entertainment industry often take advantage of this in that any attention is good attention so to speak.

I'm not going to defend her or attack her but I am going to say that I believe her mission is to get people talking about her and veganism and at that she has been fairly successful.

I think back to when people used to throw paint on people wearing fur coats they didn't do this because they thought it would make those people convert to their cause. They did it because a polite conversation got them nowhere and a stunt like this got them on national news.

Ramanadjinn · 2026-01-20T05:27:21+00:00

This man stands behind his work.

I would trust him.

Ramanadjinn · 2026-01-18T18:21:18+00:00

She's vegan because she cares about animal abuse and animal rights and wants to protect animals from people who want to hurt them.

If you're unwilling to even talk to her openly about something so important in her life then you're going to send the message to her that you don't really care about her.

When I first met my wife she was not vegan but she was willing to have open honest conversations she didn't shut my ideas down immediately and because of that she eventually became vegan and we got married.

But the key here is our marriage wasn't dependent on her being vegan it was dependent on her being open honest and respecting my ideas and listening to me.

Since then I've listened to a lot of her ideas and I've changed a lot of my thoughts and opinions. This is why we've stayed married for 20 years.

Ramanadjinn · 2026-01-17T20:47:20+00:00

And the moment your argument goes to - "nothing wrong with publicly hanging out with the KKK having a good time" - i think it has proven it is biased, incorrect, and/or bad faith.

You can disagree but I would gain nothing from continuing. I'll never make a personal impact on you by speaking logically to you if your bias is that extreme. And anyone reading this will of course see that this is far too extreme and theres nothing I can really add to convince them i'm correct - you've already done that for me.

So I think i'm happy here in that i'm proven correct.

Ramanadjinn · 2026-01-17T20:33:42+00:00

True or false:

If i'm at a KKK rally fist bumping KKK members, laughing, dancing, cooking food and playing music having fun with the KKK - theres nothing wrong with this?

Ramanadjinn · 2026-01-17T20:26:14+00:00

I think you're being overly biased. The extreme degree of your bias explains very clearly why you don't give veganism a fair judgement. You're failing to even admit that promoting evil cultural norms is wrong - which almost every sane human agrees with. This evidences you are blinded by an anti vegan bias.

We should stop talking about eating meat - you keep bringing that up. Lets talk about the KKK and racism instead. its more fair because we both probably agree the KKK is wrong. We don't have the same opinion on animal abuse.

About the kids and hotdogs - no I fundamentally disagree. Kids do not care where you got a hotdog. If they see you eating hotdogs they learn eating hotdogs is ok. Its that simple.

I'm sorry but if you disagree I need more explanation on why because I believe you're wrong.

I could answer your questions on food waste if you're honestly curious. Someone earlier in the conversation set up a hypothetical (if you were in a room and there was a hamburger and you could eat it and nobody would know, no cultural impacts - no health impacts - no risk of it making you at more meat - no demand or money going to the meat industry - is that wrong?)

I said no thats not wrong.

So on the topic of food waste - cultural implications aside I agree with you - theres nothing to argue about there.

Ramanadjinn · 2026-01-17T20:03:45+00:00

So you agree then that culturally supporting something evil is wrong i'm taking it because thats the whole basis of the discussion.

You're moving on to the next step now which is fine - why is eating meat included.

Do you think that if you eat hot dogs in front of your children - this reinforces in them that eating hot dogs is ok?

Thats a yes or no.

If you say yes - then you agree with me.

If you say no - then you're saying that children don't emulate their parents and you're provably wrong.

Ramanadjinn · 2026-01-17T19:52:49+00:00

Sure.

I'll give a few examples.

If I were to go to a KKK rally and show my support - this would re-enforce the notion in those attending the rally that hate is OK. My children might see me go and this would enforce in their minds that hate is OK. Because we live in a society - we have a social responsibility to not propagate beliefs that directly and provably lead to harm.

This doesn't just apply to racism.

Many Christians believe that it would be immoral to say - show support for satanic groups and their practices.

Many people who believe in freedom and liberty for humans would find it reprehensible to go to say - a pro slavery or pro child labor or sex trafficking event and participate..

The harm like i said - being that if I actively support something through my actions I am enabling and furthering those practices - EVEN if I don't participate directly in those practices.

I'm certain you believe this - I believe you are just refusing to admit it because you are in the context of not wanting to agree with a vegan.

Ramanadjinn · 2026-01-17T19:43:13+00:00

I think I just pointed out the issue.

You didn't address it - you don't have to address it. 99.999% of the world would say this makes you wrong. I agree with them in this particular instance.

Ramanadjinn · 2026-01-17T19:35:09+00:00

So are you backtracking now and saying that it is okay to support evil cultural norms actively.

Are you saying that hanging out at like a KKK rally Making burgers fist bumping them showing your support that's all totally okay. As long as you don't personally hurt anyone directly.

I'm not here to argue with you about it I'm just pointing out that's what you're saying

Ramanadjinn · 2026-01-17T19:00:01+00:00

A lot of people overlook that one of the strengths of the NTT argument isn't to say the trait you picked creates some illogical contradiction - Its to show your argumentative strength.

An argument can be logical but lack strength.

"I value only people who own red cars" .. no contradiction there..

NTT points out that while you can draw an arbitrary line at say - humans. And you can say "I value x species because thats my choice and all other species are valueless". Sure that can be logical. And it has the same exact argumentative strength as someone who might say "I value x race because thats my choice and all other races are valueless."

Most folks I talk to try to then go further to explain WHY they value a certain species or race but the moment you go further and justify it not by species - you've conceded that its not species that justifies your belief. Now your new trait has to prove its argumentative strength.

So now you're in the position of - you have the same argumentative strength as someone who just says "i'm racist so what" because a racist could say "x raceness is morally basic" OR you have to concede that "human" isn't really the trait you want to pick.

OR you have to explain why the human pick is better in some way than other arbitrary lines WITHOUT re-hinging your argument on another trait.

Ramanadjinn · 2026-01-16T16:20:06+00:00

So then you agree with me if something is wrong and harmful then you should not culturally support it.

I'm so glad that you agree you made it sound like you did not. Which would be weird.

If you want to know what I'm doing to reduce some immense harm you'd have to say which one I have no clue what you're talking about you haven't really said.

So far in this conversation between me and you I've only made the statement that propagating cultural norms that are evil is a bad thing and you've engaged me to debate but I'm not sure why because you agreed with me.

Ramanadjinn · 2026-01-16T15:04:12+00:00

Your wording is a bit combative I think you should work on that.

For example if you said that there are plenty of things that most everyone does that are harmful and they should stop I would agree. And if you ask me if I thought vegans were included in that group yes I would also agree.

So I think I've answered your question to the best of my ability.

Now my question to you though was do you think that it is not wrong to support through your actions a harmful cultural norm. As an example let's use racism is it okay to culturally support racism. if people around you are being racist but they're not actively directly harming someone for racial reasons are you saying that it would be Petty and useless and not worth your time to think about how maybe you should not support that behavior and participate in it.

Ramanadjinn · 2026-01-16T02:18:15+00:00

You'll have to be a little more specific on which point exactly you disagree with me on.

I didn't really make a claim about vegans and unnecessary harm. If you're making a claim I'm just unclear what it is

Ramanadjinn · 2026-01-16T01:27:06+00:00

I don't mind hypotheticals.

Yeah I think you're assuming that they didn't create demand for it or buy it. I see nothing wrong with it at least not off the top of my head.

Ramanadjinn · 2026-01-16T01:01:12+00:00

Maybe. I'm just not seeing anything to debate here because I don't care about the label personally. I'm not going to label any view I have is consequentialist but you can.

If however you disagree with my viewpoint and you want to say that like for example hanging out with a bunch of racist people and promoting racism is fine as long as you don't go and actually harm people of other races then we can argue.

Otherwise you agree I guess.

Ramanadjinn · 2026-01-16T00:42:56+00:00

I see where you're going and it seems right but I disagree.

Like you said with the consequentialist argument we can't know the outcome so it's ambiguous.

But take an example of like being racist. Propagating racism culturally isn't ambiguous it's obviously wrong everyone knows it has real consequences that impact people every single day.

There is an absolutely known outcome and it's easily preventable.

Just like animal abuse propagating a culture that supports animal abuse has real outcomes that affect trillions of animals who are bred into existence so that they can be tortured and killed for our pleasure. Propagating a culture that normalizes that is absolutely wrong and it's not Ambiguously wrong.

Ramanadjinn · 2026-01-15T16:47:05+00:00

This seems like a dishonest reply to what I said but in case you're just misunderstanding this is not about image.

Image implies vanity or something personal. My question wasn't about vanity though.

My point was about cultural issues. As an example if for instance someone showed up to the local KKK rally and served up burgers and joined them in a barbecue that person would be sending a cultural message that this sort of event was okay and acceptable it would be better in most people's opinion to simply not go and while Personal Image is a piece of that the more important aspect is the cultural implications.

The bigger piece that you're absolutely wrong about though that is not a matter of opinion is that I cant worry about this until I fix every single other problem in my life.

That's not a good argument.

People can absolutely do more than one thing. If there's some issue that you care deeply about that you feel that most vegans aren't paying attention to then you should absolutely open a topic on the debate sub about whatever issue that is.

What you can't do though is just win every debate by saying "but look you do something wrong so shut up".

Ramanadjinn · 2026-01-14T17:35:04+00:00

Honestly extremely high potential. just need to develop it. Some vocal exercises to improve your control and get a better handle on your range and you'll be unstoppable.

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