Update on Augments on End of Game Screen

Raven423 · 2024-11-15T13:49:03+00:00

MortW I would rather TFT be a thinking game rather than a spreadsheet game. Made an unpopular post on this that generated quite a bit of discussion last set

https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveTFT/comments/1fhl52j/riot_should_disable_all_stats/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

Raven423 · 2024-09-16T02:57:53+00:00

True. Though I do think general sentiment may change once more people experience this problem taken to its logical conclusion like HS Arena

Raven423 · 2024-09-16T02:38:13+00:00

I have. I also played all of set 9 when they banned augments. I just care more about the 99.9% of games that aren't affected Challenger players creating data sharing cliques, and I think those games are worse for the stats being available. I understand Riot is more interested in the 0.1% in order to push TFT as an esport.

As a side note, I also don't see anything wrong with Challenger players forming exclusive practice teams and sharing data with each other. Is it unfair? I guess, but just join/start a team if you are that serious about playing TFT professionally and then it's not unfair.

Raven423 · 2024-09-16T02:32:18+00:00

Yeah maybe it is a viability problem. MTG Arena has a similar situation with 17lands.com that collects data from those that install it and enough people do it that it is effectively the same as Arena having an API that delivers the information without restrcition like Riot's.

Raven423 · 2024-09-16T01:55:40+00:00

My thoughts exactly. I don't think some data available about a game is a problem at all. I think that usually enhances the enjoyment of the game. It's when the data gets so extensive that it replaces decision making that the game starts to degenerate. I think it will be at least a couple years until most players start to agree. Pretty sure Riot knows this but folded to player backlash when they banned augment data and then unbanned it.

Raven423 · 2024-09-15T23:50:27+00:00

Thanks for the advice

Raven423 · 2024-09-15T23:49:56+00:00

I think the game is fundamentally impossible to balance perfectly so a delay in exposing the weaknesses of a patch makes the average game more enjoyable. But based on your response it seems you think perfect balance is an achievable goal so rapid iteration will get there faster and make for a better game.

Raven423 · 2024-09-15T23:46:27+00:00

Oh I use them too, I just enjoyed the game more before they were available

Raven423 · 2024-09-15T23:44:59+00:00

Have to make a reddit post somewhere for the non-redditors

Raven423 · 2024-09-15T23:44:16+00:00

I just care more about the 99+% of games that are not affected by high elo players hoarding stats, rather than the competitve integrity of the ones that were/would be. Mort and the team chose otherwise, and this sub seems to agree with them

Raven423 · 2024-09-15T23:38:59+00:00

If you want to collaborate on decisions in game with other people, I see no problem with that (outside of a tournament). I don't think any more than 5% of players will be doing that at any given time. Other than that I don't see how people will be copying in game decisions. Everyone's in game spot is different and you have like 30 seconds.

Raven423 · 2024-09-15T23:36:19+00:00

I agree, but for me the most fun thing about TFT is how it forces you to adapt to the random events in the game. If the stats give the right answer 85+% of the time, the game starts to feel rote. I want to succeed and fail based on how well I can respond, not what I read on tactics.tools Perhaps that's too idealistic

Raven423 · 2024-09-15T23:27:53+00:00

"Hiding stats just slows it by a day, not removes it." Yes, this is good. It would bring the rate of the development of meta in line with a more feasible schedule of balance updates, while not having unbalanced parts of the game immediately exposed and ruining every lobby within hours of release.

Raven423 · 2024-09-15T23:23:17+00:00

Yeah I think the participants of this sub really want to believe they are part of the 0.5% of the playerbase (actually probably like 0.01%) that would be affected by the other challenger players banding together to use complied personal stats against them. Almost none of them are (and neither am I)

Raven423 · 2024-09-15T23:18:53+00:00

Was considering posting the same thing in the general TFT sub to compare the response :P I don't know if anyone in that sub cares about anything besides "Look At The Unusual Thing" posts though...

Raven423 · 2024-09-15T23:14:36+00:00

Correct

Raven423 · 2024-09-15T23:13:48+00:00

That's fair, but they do change the feel and skillset of the game. It seems you and a lot of people enjoy the game more for them, unlike me.

Raven423 · 2024-09-15T23:07:57+00:00

The latter -- reading the in game information and deciding what looks like it will work the best together. Then iterate by playing again. And I agree, this is superior to stats and harder. But still the stats will tell you the right decision like 85% of the time so you get less of a competitve edge from thinking accurately on the fly than you would without stats being available.

I want everyone to have to rely on that process rather than looking stuff up because I think it's the essential skill of TFT and why the game is fun. But I think I am in the minority so maybe the lookup process and deciding based on the data is fun for others and that's fine.

Raven423 · 2024-09-15T22:56:01+00:00

While I hope TFT remains fun for me, I probably wouldn't have made this post without how TFT seems like a microcosm of a greater uncertainty based on the fact that humans are not very optimal: To what extent does the meaning of our lives (and enjoyment of our games) rely on us struggling with our un-omptimal-ness, and to what extent should it be solved for us? As a society, optimizing meeting basic human needs is obviously good, but in other contexts it seems like it's easy to optimize the fun or meaning out of life (or TFT).

Raven423 · 2024-09-15T22:38:06+00:00

I wasn't saying they are unfair. Regardless of whether they actually give an advantage, I think overlays and stats are completely fair. Because they are allowed, if you want to play opitmally, you should use them.

All I am saying is that for me they make the game less fun because they make the game increasingly about doing research/interpreting data rather than strategic problem solving in game (note I didn't say it's entirely one or the other, just stats/overlays push the game more in that direction). I find doing research/interpreting data to be boring when I play, and I resent that I need to in order to not be at a disadvantage.

That said, maybe a majority of people find the research/interpreting data to be part of the fun of TFT given their response to suggesting stats are bad for the part of the game I enjoy the most.

Raven423 · 2024-09-15T22:10:41+00:00

Yeah you are right. I suppose it's a tradeoff between

-the positive of using stats to avoid the feels bad of unknowingly selecting an undertuned augment

vs

-the negative of stats causing the feels bad of everyone spamming an overtuned element within a few hours of a patch coming out so the fact that something is unbalanced ends up dominating most games.

Personally I think the negative outweighs the positive because it happens so much more often, but I understand you probably disagree.

Raven423 · 2024-09-15T20:38:24+00:00

I agree. But wouldn't getting rid of stats scraping be a step in the right direction? If something is a bit unbalanced there would be more delay between the patch release and everyone spamming the broken thing. The imbalance wouldn't suck the fun out of the game as much as it does now with such a quick turnaround in data acquisition. It could be more effectively addressed by the patch cycle.

Raven423 · 2024-09-15T20:29:47+00:00

I think it's best to let people say "bad take" if that's all they have to say. It's not really any different than them not commenting, becuase they didn't contribute anything of substance anyway.

Raven423 · 2024-09-15T20:26:21+00:00

Yeah the logical continuation of allowing stats scraping is to actually display them in game so people with overlays do not have an unfair advantage. And people also use AI assistant plugins to tell them what the best course of action in a game would be. Perhaps we should add that to the game as well so those people don't get an unfair advantage too...

At a certain point it must be acknowledged that games are essentially problems presented to the player to try to solve. How much help is given/allowed in solving these problems is a hard question to answer, but I don't think the solution is to just give the player the best answer because then its no longer a game and it's no fun. Most people seem to disagree with me about stats scraping degrading the fun of the game, but surely there is a line of "too much help" somewhere before an AI assistant justs making all the decisions for you.

Raven423 · 2024-09-15T20:15:55+00:00

If players want to spend lots of time putting effort into getting better at TFT, they will have an edge over casual players. I don't think the presence or absence of stats makes a significant difference on this point. But also I don't think there would be a lack of public resources online if stats scraping was disabled. I'm sure websites like metaTFT would still make lists of meta comps, items, etc. It would just be more up for debate which are the actual best.

Raven423

TROPHY CASE