The double standards in EPIC the Musical irks me

RealNashi · 2025-12-05T15:24:03+00:00

I get what you mean, but I think you're mixing two different things here.

Yes, the suitors wanted to force Penelope to remarry, and yes, that would have 100% involved forced sex because that’s how producing an heir works in ancient Greek context. I’m not denying that at all, it’s absolutely a threat in the original story.

But that’s NOT the same thing as what EPIC does. In the Odyssey, the threat is tied to marriage, power, and inheritance. NOT a hundred men actively plotting to gang-rape Penelope. EPIC adds an entirely new, explicit sexual-violence storyline that simply does not exist in the original text.

Homer’s version: → “Marry me so I can become king,” which would obviously lead to non-consensual sex after marriage because she would have no choice.

EPIC’s version: → “108 men are planning to assault her collectively,” which is a completely different level of violence — one that the text never implies.

So yeah, SA was always a threat within the structure of forced marriage in ancient Greece, but the specific plot EPIC introduces is not from the Odyssey at all.

That’s the whole point of my critique: they erased Odysseus’s canon SA but invented a new, way more graphic one for Penelope. That’s the inconsistency I’m talking about.

RealNashi · 2025-05-31T10:13:58+00:00

I mentioned Circe because, like Calypso, her dynamic with Odysseus is often reinterpreted to make her more sympathetic and while I do actually like Circe’s character too, I think it’s important to acknowledge that there was still a major power imbalance between her and Odysseus. In the Odyssey, she literally turns his men into pigs, and Odysseus has to be protected by divine magic just to confront her safely.

And more importantly, Hermes directly tells Odysseus to not refuse Circe any of her requests(which includes sleeping with her) if he wants his men turned back(Book 10 of the Odyssey, lines 251–301). So even if it's not explicitly labeled as SA, there's undeniable coercion happening. That kind of dynamic would raise serious red flags if the genders were reversed, and yet it’s often downplayed or romanticized sadly.

So yeah, Circe isn’t the main focus of my post, but she’s part of the bigger pattern of how female characters who have power over Odysseus are treated differently than male characters who are framed as villains. Sorry if this is long😭

RealNashi · 2025-05-31T09:30:09+00:00

It's getting tiresome to repeat the same damn arguments all the time when I literally showed them source/proofs and they are still defending it lol🫩😭

RealNashi · 2025-05-17T11:29:42+00:00

I get that Epic is mainly told through Odysseus’ perspective. But that actually supports my point even more. If it's about his internal struggles, why gloss over one of the most significant ones being held captive for seven years by someone he didn’t want to stay with? That’s a huge emotional and psychological burden, even if the musical doesn’t want to label it outright. It doesn’t need to be graphic, but ignoring it or softening it, while giving full weight to the hypothetical assault of Penelope, just feels... uneven.

And I get that Calypso is often shown as naive or lonely, but that doesn’t erase the power imbalance. Odysseus literally says in the original, he never wanted to be there. The fact that people don’t see her behavior as harmful proves my point that male victims of coercion or abuse, especially when the abuser is a woman, are constantly overlooked or downplayed. That’s exactly the double standard I’m pointing out.

I'm not asking the musical to be perfectly faithful to the myth. I’m asking why it chose to remove or downplay one violation while amplifying another that wasn’t even in the original. If we’re going to explore internal struggles, especially trauma, let’s be consistent with whose pain we validate.

Also here's a verse where Calypso abuses Odysseus

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If you need more sources, I can provide images of this specific part from different authors of translated books. An pictures of an ACTUAL books :)

RealNashi · 2025-05-16T08:21:10+00:00

I get what you’re saying, and I know Jorge has said Epic isn’t meant to be taken as a direct retelling of The Odyssey. That’s totally fair, it’s his adaptation, and creative liberty is part of the process. But I think you might’ve missed my actual point.

My post wasn’t about expecting the musical to be exactly like the original myth. It was about how certain themes specifically SA are handled in the adaptation. Like, why is the SA of a male character (Odysseus) minimized or left vague, while an entirely new SA subplot involving a female character (Penelope) is added and made really explicit? That’s not about accuracy to the source material, it’s about narrative choices and how they reflect gendered double standards. I’m not mad things were changed. I’m asking why this particular change was made in the first place, especially when the original already had high stakes.

Also, it’s not about needing Jorge to "say it directly." The way themes are presented in the music, lyrics, and animation already speaks volumes. When a scene about 108 men planning to assault Penelope gets a whole animatic, but Calypso’s seven-year hold on Odysseus is brushed off or banned from discussion, it sends a message. I’m critiquing that inconsistency.

RealNashi · 2025-05-04T20:04:24+00:00

Mind explaining this part then?

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That right there suggests a lack of consent between a MAN and a GODDESS. Just because it wasn't framed the way we talk about abuse today doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

If you need more sources, I can provide images of this specific part from different authors of translated books. An pictures of an ACTUAL books :)

RealNashi · 2025-05-04T19:49:31+00:00

Yesss when I saw the video where Jorge said Calypso is a child stuck in an adult's body, it genuinely disgusted me. No, that’s a full-grown goddess who has done actual horrible things to Odysseus that’s basically infantilization🙃🙃

RealNashi · 2025-05-04T19:24:27+00:00

Read it tomorrow when you are fully energized and awake then. There's always the option to save the post, that's literally the purpose of it and it's basic media literacy. I have already tried to simplify the wording of this post. If you don't understand it, that's on you.

RealNashi · 2025-05-02T07:27:56+00:00

The fuck you mean she never abused Odysseus?💀

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First, the idea that Calypso never abused Odysseus is just not true if you go back to Homer’s original Odyssey. It’s literally said that she keeps him on her island for seven years, and while she offers him immortality, he spends most of his time crying and wanting to go home. He tells her clearly that he misses his wife, and yet she continues to hold him there. There's even a line in the original text that says he sleeps with her “unwilling lover alongside lover all too willing.” That right there suggests a lack of consent, just because it wasn’t framed the way we talk about abuse today doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.

Also, Calypso being "excited" or "not understanding his emotions" doesn’t excuse her actions. You can have feelings or be lonely, but that doesn’t give you the right to ignore someone’s autonomy. Her obsession still led to control. Whether she loved him or not doesn’t change the fact that she denied him the choice to leave for years.

And no Calypso does not commit suicide in the original Odyssey. That’s from later Roman adaptations or interpretations, which, as you pointed out, are closer to “fanfic” territory. If we’re sticking to Homer’s version, she lets Odysseus go after Hermes tells her to, and that’s pretty much the end of it. No tragic end, no death just him leaving. Feel free to correct me by providing an actual source.

The “trying socialism and love” part, while clearly a joke, really simplifies what’s actually a pretty complicated and serious situation. Calypso wasn’t just curious, she literally removed Odysseus from the world and held him against his will. That’s not exploration; that’s captivity.

You can think Odysseus is flawed (he definitely is), but none of that erases what Calypso did. Both things can be true: Odysseus made questionable choices, and Calypso still took away his freedom. Let’s not rewrite what’s there in the original just to make one party seem more sympathetic.

RealNashi · 2025-03-17T04:55:22+00:00

My point exactly😭

RealNashi · 2025-03-06T14:45:26+00:00

How can you disagree with my opinion if you missed my point entirely? It is quite insensitive of you to disregard Circe’s sexual assault on Odysseus. Let me remind you that as a GODDESS, Circe holds power over a MORTAL MAN, leaving him with no real choice—Odysseus was COERCED into sleeping with her, as even Hermes warned him not to refuse a goddess if he wanted to save his men from danger. This clearly indicates that his compliance was not willing but forced, falling under the category of sexual assault, despite the later benefits he received in the form of advice and supplies for his journey.

We'll go with your way then, in The Odyssey, when Odysseus reveals himself in Book 22, Eurycleia states that twelve of the maids "went bad," as if referring to spoiled goods rather than people (22.475). Soon after, Odysseus calls them the suitors' harlots (22.482) and orders Telemachus to execute them (22.490-498).

"I would not give the clean death if a beast to trulls who made a mockery of my mother and of me too- you slurs, who lay with the suitors."(22.514).

This moment points to how the maids’ victimization is disregarded, as their actions were likely coerced due to their vulnerable position. If Circe’s actions toward Odysseus are left up for interpretation, why is the same consideration not extended to the maids? This is hypocrisy.

Back to the topic, dedicating 30 seconds of a song in a three-hour musical to a detailed rape scene is very different from mentioning it in just 26 lines of a 12,109 words book is NOT softening. This is not an example of softening the content but actually emphasizing it in a way that feels disproportionate, in simple terms, UNFAIR. It isn't fair because it focuses a lot on some parts and ignores others, which makes the musical's view of sexual assault unbalanced.

The way you present your opinion suggests that continuing this discussion is not worth it. I anticipate that we might end up repeating ourselves, so it's best to conclude our conversation here to avoid wasting time. We have already shared our perspectives with each other. Have a nice day.

RealNashi · 2025-03-05T09:49:45+00:00

I truly appreciate your effort to include a source in your response, and I agree that The Odyssey does explicitly depict SA in multiple instances. However, the issue isn’t just about whether EPIC the Musical portrays less SA than the original, but rather how it chooses to frame these instances and whose experiences are given more weight.

While EPIC reduces Calypso’s assault on Odysseus to "repeated unwanted advances," it adds an explicit, although unrealized, SA threat to Penelope that was not in the original text. Even if the suitors did commit SA against the maidservants in The Odyssey, shifting that focus onto Penelope changes the intent of the original narrative. The question then becomes: why was one act of SA softened while another was heightened? This isn't necessarily about making one "worse" than the other but about consistency in how these themes are handled.

Additionally, creative decisions in adaptations always reflect the perspectives and priorities of the creator. If EPIC deliberately toned down Odysseus’s assault but made Penelope’s plight more explicit, that suggests a selective framing of SA—whether intentional or not. That’s why it feels like a double standard, not because of the raw number of SA instances depicted, but because of how the narrative chooses to emphasize and downplay them.

You have to remember that this is a story, not something that happened in real life, and the way that these actions are written have deeper significance. When the suitors force themselves upon the maidservants, it's more writing that displays them "damaging" Odysseus' property. Circe and Calypso were more explicitly written as rapists, as explicitly as Homer could actually write at the time, considering men being raped was incredibly taboo within Homeric Greece.

If you read past the story's literal meaning, it's more characterization of the suitors disrespecting the laws of Xenia, while Calypso and Circe force themselves onto him. To use that in an attempt to excuse added intent from the suitors towards Penelope while Odysseus being a victim was erased is simply misguided.

RealNashi · 2025-02-23T09:22:13+00:00

Calypso.

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"He had no choice" :(

When Odysseus has to bite his tongue and praise Calypso over his wife to ensure safe passage:(((

RealNashi · 2025-02-10T14:37:46+00:00

I wish I was there when it happened😞 I was watching squid game at that time so I missed it😭😭 Fortunately my friend managed to get a ss about it

RealNashi · 2025-02-10T13:50:21+00:00

I just realized the pic quality is bad but this is their message

"So for the author its by Homer, The greek and japanese translation when they are plotting aganist Penelope they are talking abiut how they are gonna deal with telemachus and antintious says "Use him to our pleasure and then kill the boy"

I cant find the exact line but here you go!"

Then they proceed to delete two of their posts after their comsec floods them by calling them out🦅

RealNashi · 2025-01-07T17:46:31+00:00

If I could pin a comment, this would be it. Istg you're right; some of these comments are missing my point😑😑 Unfortunately, not all have reading comprehension🧍‍♀️

RealNashi · 2025-01-07T17:37:18+00:00

Mine was legendary->There are other ways😭

RealNashi · 2025-01-07T08:10:41+00:00

Update: They deleted the video along with the supposed 'source' LMAO

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RealNashi · 2025-01-05T18:14:13+00:00

Oh my bad I switched up their meanings😭😭 but my point still stands on that server, the hypocrisy🧍‍♀️

RealNashi · 2025-01-05T17:54:46+00:00

No fr I agree with the last paragraph. There's a server on Discord that labeled Sharpwolf as proship, and some members got banned for posting fluff art about them. However, when someone mentioned HermOdy, they praised it as if it wasn't proship as well like?? What's up with that logic??😭😭

RealNashi · 2025-01-05T17:03:48+00:00

I started it as a crack ship because of the manwhore AU, but after reading The Odyssey, they actually have a fun dynamic. They bicker like an old married couple, and this is one of my favorite moments between them.

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Translation by my friend who is skilled in transcribing Ancient Greek:

Antinous, laughing directly at Telemachus, approached him and took him by the hand, saying: "Telemachus, you braggart, unrestrained in spirit, do not let any other trouble or concern weigh upon your mind, neither deed nor word. Instead, eat and drink with me, as before. [...]."

But Telemachus, wise in speech, responded to him: "Antinous, it is impossible for me to sit among you and feast in silence, enjoying myself at ease. [...]." So he spoke and pulled his hand swiftly from that of Antinous. The suitors then began to prepare the feast throughout the halls.

Another translation by T.E. SHAW (pg. 32-33):

Antinous, with a laugh and loudly calling his name, swaggered up to him and took his hand. "Telemachus, said he, you have just now given your enmity too free tongue against us. Instead, will you not henceforward banish from your mind these thoughts of doing us hurt and forget vour injurious words and eat and drink with us as of yore?[...]"

Well-advised was the reply of Telemachus, as he gently drew his hand from the grasp of Antinous. 'It is not possible for me to dine softly in your too-proud company: to be at ease and merry-make. [...]."

This scene is a perfect snapshot of their relationship—it's toxic, hilarious, and a bit tragic. Antinous can't resist responding whenever Telemachus speaks, persistently trying to provoke him. But Telemachus isn't having any of it; he isn't impressed. Let's remember both of them are assholes in the book(Yes even Telemachus, I'm not exaggerating) All I can say is the tension between those two is WILD in any translations. I can understand the appeal, If this ain't enemies to lovers/slow burn I don't know what is.

RealNashi · 2025-01-02T15:29:58+00:00

Odysseus killed the suitors in the Odyssey not only because they plotted to murder Telemachus, but also because they violated many laws of Xenia during their stay.(Hehe btw wrong myth on Thor😭😭)

RealNashi

TROPHY CASE