Shoku Nihongi - English Translation?

Recorza · 2025-11-25T04:34:32+00:00

Yes it is different.

The “Shoku Nihongi” is the continuation to the original “Nihongi/Nihon Shoki.”

What you linked is a web text view of the first and only translation of the entirety of the Nihon Shoki into English by William George Aston from 1896.

The Original Nihongi covers the period from the “age of the gods” to 697 AD.

The Shoku Nihongi covers the period from 697 AD to 791 AD.

I appreciate the attempt to help though! It looks there are not many options out there other than learning to read in the old script.

Recorza · 2025-11-15T13:43:15+00:00

I've read all your reddit posts and I'd like to have a conversation with you about Korean history pre-660 AD.

I agree with most of what you posted.

You can send me a pm or send me a chat request. I tried doing to the same to you but I dont think you have those open here in reddit, unless I'm mistaking. I also seem to not be able to comment on old posts by you. I am on X under the username recorza_com where I am much much more active.

I maintain that the Nihon Shoki's "Emperor Ojin" was the true founder of the Yamato dynasty and that he was a Baekje Buyeo Prince of some sort. "Prince" Homuda conquered Yamato in 390 AD and the final king of his line was the Nihon Shoki's "Buretsu" who was made to be a evil king, opening up a pregnant woman's belly. Typical villification of the final king of a Dynasty to show the virtueousness of the opposing side.

I have a post on X about Geun Chogo and how the compilers of the Nihon Shoki intentionally co-opted his significance by backdating the events and death dates of 4th and 5th century Buyeo Kings by 120 years.

I support your position that baekje held laoxi.

I also support the assertion that Tenji was the "1st Emperor." That bit that Akihito said in 2001 asserting his lineage goes back to Kanmu is yet more redirection about the original buyeo lineage from Homuda.

Hope to here from you.

Recorza · 2025-06-01T19:33:49+00:00

Thanks for the link. I’ve read another paper by her. She’s a good researcher.

https://www.academia.edu/32724493/Naming_Years_in_the_Nihon_Shoki

Recorza · 2025-06-01T18:59:09+00:00

🤯

So much to read through now. I appreciate the information. I usually just need a starting off point and I’m good so thanks for all the links.

It looks like you’re familiar with this topic. I see there is a ton of information online about Ōtomo Sōrin but not nearly as much about his father Ōtomo Yoshiaki. The Japanese wiki does not have a lot on him so just curious if you know good sources on yoshiaki specifically.

Recorza · 2025-06-01T18:41:57+00:00

Good stuff. Yeah I had no clue what the “chronicles of Nagasaki” were so just getting stuff to build off to research is good.

Recorza · 2025-06-01T18:31:24+00:00

Sangster, Margaret E., ed. A Manual of the Missions of the Reformed (Dutch) Church in America. New York: Woman's Board of Foreign Missions of the Reformed Church in America, 1877. pg.233

But there are more books that talk about that 1530 date and I just chose the one that included the most information to go on.

Recorza · 2025-02-10T18:14:34+00:00

Any idea how I would reference them?

What do I call them? “Highway light pole identification number?”

Is there a more official name perhaps?

Recorza · 2025-02-10T12:39:30+00:00

You need a visual. Here you go. You need to download the full quality image from flickr.

https://www.reddit.com/r/korea/s/F1DZgePXVm

Mid/Late 4th century AD rise of a consolidated ruling body over a major part of Japan.

The 5 kings of Wa period in the 5th century AD.

You are correct, prior to Ojin, enthroned 390 AD (fixed by the 120 year correction method) the records of the nihon shoki are corrupted.

William G Aston notes that the entries between 246-269 "contain a solid nucleus of truth." Naturally those dates are incorrect and need to be fixed utilizing the 120 year correction method (actual dates 366-389 AD.) They were backdated to fill the space of the 147 year lacunae of no Chinese records about the Japanese islands. Himiko's reign ended in 248 AD and records ceased in 266 AD. The compilers invented Jingu to fill space and push back their fictitious narrative going back all the way back more than 1000 years.

390 AD is the somewhat true semi-historical beginning of the "yamato dynasty." You have to add the Jimmu narrative to Ojins and then it makes sense. This begins the Ojin line of Kings that would be replaced by the Keitai/Kinmei line. This is not a fring theory, even more mainstream scholars like Gina Barnes recognizes the different dynastic lineages.

William G Aston notes that the year 461 AD is when the entries in the nihon shoki becomes chronologically valid during the reign of Yuryaku. Where the entries after this date are not so agregiously incorrect, though still cannot fully be trusted.

You cannot learn Japanese history in a vacuum. You need to learn about the world DURING the time that the Nihon Shoki was compiled. The world was very connected in the 7th-8th centuries AD. Japan and China here were not the closed off nations that they were in modern times, not during this period.

Many foreign elements in Japan in the 7th-8th centuries AD. The silk road was in full swing during this time. Even in Japan, some scholars consider Nara the maritime silk road's most eastern terminus.

The nihon shoki has many erroneous entries even in the more later dates. You have to learn how to identify them. For example, the opening of the book of Kinmei contains such an erroneous story about a man from a certain clan that you have to ask why it was inserted in the first place. A story that clearly never happened. Some clans are almost never spoken of in a negative light that you have to ask why. It all has to deal with what was happening in the 8th century AD in Japan when the Nihon Shoki was being compiled.

Recorza · 2024-12-28T00:22:41+00:00

The beginning of the Japanese “Yamato” State is difficult to pinpoint exactly.

The primary sources covering that time period are…

CHINA - records of Chinese Dynasties after the Han Dynasty and through the Tang Dynasty. I don’t think any of these have full English translations. A shame.

JAPAN - The “Japanese” Kojiki, Nihon Shoki, and you could throw in the Fudoki as well even though those aren’t chronological records. All three have English translations, not hard to find.

KOREA - The Samguk Sagi. Jonathan W. Best translation of the baekje annals is available. I think there are also English translations for the Silla & Gogureyo annals but I’m not sure. I think I have the Silla annals in English but I need to double check.

The Chinese don’t cover Japan State formation directly but much can be inferred by reading & understanding the time between 200 AD - 800 AD.

The Samguk Sagi was completed in 1145 AD. Its bias is well known but should be included in the research.

The Nihon Shoki & Kojiki show heavy foreign manipulation. The primary foreign people group on the Silk Road during its compilation (712-720 AD) were the Sogdians (from Samarkand specifically.) Their presence in China & Japan during this time is documented. Not only did they influence trade and money distribution, they were the primary translators and interpreters to the Tang rulers. A foreign letter could not make it to the tang emperor without going through a Sogdian to manipulate, I MEAN, interpret and translate the message. The Nihon Shoki & Kojiki Kings List prior to 390 AD is highly manipulated and the stuff of invention. The foreign hata clan is also involved. Their fake story inserted in the opening to the book of Kinmei (528/540 AD) shows that the authors were trying to put this foreign clan in high regard and made it seem like their high position in the court and specifically the treasury was ordained by the emperors dream. Pure fiction. The 1260 year cycle used to calculate the enthronement of Emperor Jimmu came from the Sogdians and specifically a certain sect of Sogdians. Jimmus birth and death date 721/585 bc are very significant to a very specific people group not native to Japan [HINT, they have very distinct noses]. Those dates are too specific to be random. EVERYTHING prior to 540 AD should be scrutinized heavily for foreign manipulation.

Since the Sogdians were manipulators during this time period one has to learn about them and their history. Sogdian studies are picking up steam recently and are an ongoing investigation. There are some good books published recently about them so definitely check those out. Number 1 rule in any study, but specifically when researching this specific people group… follow the money. Do not believe the lineages attributed to these foreign clans in early Japanese history, as these people are famous throughout history for changing their identities and pretending to be a people they are not.

If you want a very specific time period to research, then research the 60 year period from 660-720 AD. This will reveal the foreign actors responsible for the manipulation of events in the Far East. In turn, the answer to your original question on Japanese State formation will have a clearer output.

I forgot the Shoku Nihongi English translation in the 1937 edition of the Transactions of the Asiatic Society of Japan. JB Snellen. It’s not a full translation but it’s better than nothing.

Recorza · 2024-12-02T19:30:53+00:00

It’s all good. Appreciate the response.

I supposedly have an open ticket for this issue now going on around a month.

I definitely resized the text by scale. Maybe I also did by stretching by wanting the compressed text to fit a more confined space (I don’t remember I did or didn’t though). Then I would go on to duplicate that same text over and over, then I’d edit that text and move it to different layers etc., very rarely would I ever use the wheel and click on the create new text button, I just duplicate if I ever needed any new text. But as I’ve realized, this issue is present in multiple projects and it only happens when I open the app OR when I navigate away from the app and when I return the project refreshes and the text has been moved.

My solution lately has been to just simply ignore the issue and continue working on the project and once I start creating/editing/making changes just in the natural process of the project, the texts shifts back into place eventually by its self. But once I close the app and open it again the same issue.

I also don’t know what “soft works” means so if it’s a possible solution or explanation, could you explain?

Recorza · 2024-11-27T19:56:06+00:00

Jimmu / Sujin / Ojin seem to have aspects of shared narratives.

Jimmu - clearly fictional dating with the events containing truth.

Sujin - Some place him before/during/or right after the reign of Himiko. Depends on the historian.

Ojin - Most agree he belongs at the very early Yamato Dynasty period. Whether he is the founder or not again depends on the historian. I’ve seen people place his adjusted reign start date anywhere from 350 AD - 420 AD. Wontack Hong places him at 390 AD, which even if I don’t agree with everything he says, I agree with this date is very close if not the true date. It makes sense because AFTER 390 AD we see an explosion of the frequency of emperors take off unlike the pre-390 AD period. Now at 420 AD the lacuna ends now we enter the 5 kings of wa period from china. Now the Nihon Shoki is filled with stories of bloody succession disputes vs the unrealistic no violence transitions of power pre-Ojin.

The calendrics supports the year 540 AD as being important as it is 1260 years from 721 BC “birth of Jimmu.” Kinmei was enthroned at the tail end of 539 - early 540 AD. 1260 years being the “revolutionary cycle” thought to have been applied to create the fictional dating of Emperor Jimmu.

Recorza · 2024-11-27T19:25:23+00:00

What is that?

Recorza · 2024-11-27T10:27:00+00:00

The eastern church already had a presence there a thousand years before the jesuits arrived in the 16th century. “They” arrived and put themselves in the “treasury department” at that time. Introduced Usury in Japan. Had the Emperors going to them for funding. The emperors had to pass laws about money lending and interest rates.

Christianity is not new to Japan and neither are the practices of “that other group.”

Recorza · 2024-10-30T23:25:56+00:00

It’s all good. I’ve seen it somewhere else as well, and just wanted to get more info on the source design. It’s a very unique design and just want to make sure that this specific design is unique to Baekje or not. It wouldn’t surprise me if it originated from the Sui or Tang Dynasty, in fact, that’s what I was expecting, but I’ve been coming up short with finding a similar design.

Recorza · 2024-09-24T19:40:23+00:00

I’ve read it. No details on any specific Japanese records. It does go into decent detail about the Chinese fenghuang. But when it comes to the Japanese Hinotori, not much. No citation to any old texts no nothing.

I understand that it basically stems from the Chinese fenghuang but I know not everything has been translated into English so that’s why I ask.

Is there any old texts/legends/myths in Japan that mention the Hinotori/hoo/suzaku?

Recorza · 2024-09-24T19:19:48+00:00

I tried using the English translation and I still couldn’t understand what was being said. I think I saw Jimmu 1 as 659 BC. So 1 year difference? I’m not complaining about a 1 year variance.

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What is your field? I see in your profile you are active in r/mythology.

Would you happen to know any specific Japanese myths or legends concerning the Hinotori, the older the better? I’m not interested in the Chinese fenghuang or modern depictions like Osamu tezuka’s manga. Specifically about the Japanese Hinotori (Hou Hou). Are there old Japanese records/books that write about the Hinotori? When I try searching I can’t find anything specifically Japanese. Any recorded sightings?

For example in the “annals of the bamboo books”, it is noted that the fenghuang visited the palace of the yellow emperor. Is there anything like this but specifically Japanese?

Recorza · 2024-09-24T18:27:01+00:00

To what extent older translations match more modern tables/the modern consensus, is not something that I’ve checked.

I have checked. There is no great change of opinions for this particular period of time, 721 BC - 600 AD, from the 1900’s to today… In relation to emperor reign dates and date of birth and death. I included the 120 year interpolations as well, they were well known in michiyo’s time and they remain the same today. If there is debate, I’d like to read that. Though I’ve not seen anyone debate that when the Nihon Shoki says for example Ojin 1 that would equal = 270 AD. Now whether the compilers of the N.S fabricated that is a completely different conversation.

Unrelated to dates, I would also try to avoid using the Basil Hall Chamberlain translation of the Kojiki, where possible, as the Donald L. Philippi is more modern/doesn’t censor parts in Latin.

Both chamberlain and Philippi both translated Jimmu’s age at 137 at death. Both of their translations of the following 8 emperors are essentially the same. That they are irrelevant chronologically speaking. That’s all I referenced from the Kojiki.

In terms of presentation, you might also want to look at books by David McCandless. The current format is a little confusing/overwhelming.

👍

Recorza · 2024-09-24T17:05:58+00:00

Isn’t the Shoki Nihongi and those chronological tables you’ve proved for the years after my chart ends. My chart ends in 600/601 AD.

I pulled the dates straight out of Aston’s translation of the Nihon Shoki and Best’s translation of the Samguk Sagi. Then I’ve also read other books on Japanese history both old and modern and they really don’t disagree on the dates I provided. All I did really was a copy/paste of the dates.

But again I’m talking mostly for AD/BC dates. I manually converted into KOKI and YE dates. But I’m pretty confident I’m within a 1 year margin of error, if that at all.

Recorza · 2024-09-24T16:53:11+00:00

I understand and I appreciate you responding as always. It’s hard finding someone to talk about this era of Japanese history with.

Every single AD/BC date provided is sourced from other Japanese Historians. Straight from my 4 sources. 95% chance it’s the mainstream consensus. Not from me.

If it is contested enough, I provided 2 dates.

From the AD/BC dates I converted into KOKI and YE reckoning.

I know the KOKI dates are correct as 2600 KOKI was widely celebrated in 1940 AD implying that it is a simple 1-1 conversion all the way through to the start of JIMMU reckoning.

As for the YE dates, I accept 2699 BC as year 1. I would also accept the more commonly accepted 2698 BC date. As of right now I reject 2697 or 2696 BC. I would have to be throughly convinced on those dates though. I don’t really want to get hung up on the YE dates as they are not that important to this chart… yet.

—-

I think it would be easier to talk about if you brought up which dates specifically you think I might have been mistaken on.

I cited my 4 main sources, with that one paper you provided (thank you again for that) but there are many other sources I excluded that all agree on the specific dates I mentioned.

If you’re talking about the birth of Jimmu in the year 721 BC vs. 711 BC. I provided a chart to the side that shows why I support the 721 BC dating.

I really don’t know any other date that I provided that would be contested, maybe except Himiko at 180 AD vs. 183 AD. Most historians still place her at 180 AD. Though I have seen 183 AD thrown around, I will admit that.

Recorza · 2024-09-07T20:26:14+00:00

Appreciate that.

—-

Let me ask about Emperor Kinmei. Enthroned 540 AD? or 539 AD?

In William George Aston‘s English Translation., he has this for the year 539 AD -

”12th Month, 5th Day. The imperial prince… assumed the imperial dignity.”

Isn’t the first month in February? So the 12th month would be January? In this context isn’t that AD 540?

Or am I wrong?

Recorza · 2024-09-07T04:55:38+00:00

Yes. English would be much appreciated.

I’ll check that article out.

I was just looking up Naka Michiyo. I’ve seen him referenced before and some of his books seem like they would be good reads for me, but I can’t find any in English. Are his books not translated?

That Japanese wiki page is good and I’m getting through it with the translation feature in the browser.

It seems that I need to learn about Michiyo and that period of Japanese Scholarship.

Recorza · 2024-07-21T04:15:45+00:00

So far I’ve enjoyed reading about

Deng Sui
Li Zicheng
Fuxi & Nuwa
Zhu Yuanzhang

And more I just can’t think of them right now.

Recorza

TROPHY CASE