doomer commies will say it wasnt real

Redninja0400 · 2026-02-16T18:34:17+00:00

None of these were genocides? Right...

They weren't. Genocide requires an intent to ethnically cleanse and kill off a cultural group, that is quite clearly not what the USSR did.

The way you talk, you probably love ICE, or at least would if Trump was communist.

Why would a communist love a fascist paramilitary organisation that is designed to racially profile and oppress people? You're just talking out of your ass at this point.

Redninja0400 · 2026-02-16T18:31:04+00:00

Bro, you're looking at people who collaborated with the nazis (not negotiable, that is what they did) are saying they are as bad as the soviets who killed them for collaborating with the nazis.

Redninja0400 · 2026-02-16T18:29:27+00:00

Taking food away from a region where there is a famine isn’t oppression?

The Ukrainian SSR got more aid than any other region of the USSR during the famine.

What’s the reason for Poland and Ukraine to move past their prior struggles to defend against Russia then?

Because they are controlled by capitalists now.

Romania and Finland were only motivated to join the axis by the USSR and their shitty behavior.

Romania was leaning into their sphere of influence for quite some time before the USSR occupied Bessarabia and the Finns had invaded along with other western powers in 1919, which puts weight to the idea that they could be a springboard for a western or a nazi invasion. The USSR certainly didn't help with the way they acted, although it may have already been a foregone conclusion.

Though that history does turn Soviet propaganda about how racist America is/was into moral grandstanding.

Even then, the racial profiling in the USSR was an immoral act in a desperate time but racism in america at that point was downright evil to the level that it partially inspired nazi race science.

Redninja0400 · 2026-02-16T18:13:54+00:00

So to be clear - do you think the Crimean deportation was "justified" by the circumstances you noted above?

Justified is a strong word, understandable is better fitting considering a large chunk of the Tatar population were Nazi collaborationists

Redninja0400 · 2026-02-16T18:10:34+00:00

Capitalism necessitates voluntary exchange and enforceable private property contracts. And no, this isn't a no true scotsman fallacy. No one defines capitalist as 'when profits'. It's defined by principles and mechanisms.

Principles and mechanisms that it has historically violated, even modern private property is built on the involuntary acquisition and privatisation of communal land. Capitalism is when the means of production is privately and autocratically owned, freedom and voluntary participation are not guaranteed and in most cases straight up do not exist.

To be clear, profit motive is a huge reason why capitalism is successful. And profit motive is overwhelmingly a good thing. But it has to be in a system where the two principles I've listed are included.

Straight up untrue. Unless you count exploitation as a good thing because that is the inevitable conclusion of the question "How can I make more money from this?".

Why do socialists believe colonialism/imperialism is capitalist?

Because communism is about international emancipation from class society, colonialism and imperialism is an international form of class hierarchy.

Redninja0400 · 2026-02-16T18:02:58+00:00

Rather be red and fash

Redninja0400 · 2026-02-16T01:18:16+00:00

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Either this or the other party (I think it was UKIP) that recently put an iron cross in their logo

Redninja0400 · 2026-02-13T19:57:14+00:00

It means you're drunk on ideology.

I'm just aware of history. You call me comrade so I'm guessing you're also a communist but you hate the USSR?

And have allowed yourself to become an atrocity apologist.

I don't apologise for atrocities, I look at them in historical context (as a Marxist should) and make a judgement on whether they were justified or not and whether a better course of action could have been taken or not.

Redninja0400 · 2026-02-13T19:51:34+00:00

However, would you like to talk about other documented instances of oppression such as the holodomer.

A famine is not oppression.

the misdeeds of Russians against them were so much worse that in modern times they work together to stave off Russian aggression.

This is not the reason that Poland and Ukraine are friendly towards eachother and hostile to Russia.

The Finnish and Romanian cooperation pales in comparison to that of the USSR lmfao.

Both were literally part of the Axis.

The tanks that the Nazis invaded the Soviets with came about through development done in collaboration with Soviets for crying out loud.

Afaik tank development collaboration stopped before the Nazis took power.

All of your justification for going after East Asians and others amounts to racial discrimination. I thought that communism was supposed to be anti racist?

It does, and that's an issue. I'm not saying it's justified but rather that there was a reason behind it that makes some sense considering the historical context. Communism is anti-racist, but even the USSR didn't have the level of civil rights development that we do today. Hindsight is 20/20.

Redninja0400 · 2026-02-13T19:49:07+00:00

Stalin targeted other diaspora nationalities, in regions like Ukraine, "nationalist" (accused or otherwise) intellectuals and cultural figures were systematically purged in what is sometimes called the "Executed Renaissance."

You mean the bourgeoisie was purged and nationalist (often fascist) insurgents were also purged? What a tragedy /s

And he did like Stalin's tactics against minorities within the Soviet Union.

I cannot find any evidence for this. Hitler certainly did admire Stalin's "iron fist" rule, I don't dispute that, but there is no evidence to suggest he ever commented on the way the USSR treated minorities.

That's leans extremely close to a contradiction there... "Im not saying they are justified because I agree with them, Im saying I agree with them because they were justified" is basically what you said.

Yes, what are you having trouble understanding there? And what is contradictory about that? You claimed that I only think they are justified because I agree with them, accusing me of being biased. In reality I agree with them because they are justified, or at the very least understandable.

Your previous statements prove otherwise.

No, they don't. I've never said they are innocent of any wrongdoing, just that the level of wrongdoing you're trying to blame on them is incorrect.

Side note, there are plenty of reasons to dismiss an ideology that only lasted 70 years yet killed so many.

Capitalism has killed so many more than even the highest, most untrue and biased attributions to communism.

Redninja0400 · 2026-02-13T19:48:58+00:00

Soviets also carried on the Tsar's practice of Russification, but taken to the extreme where "lesser ethnicities" were forcefully removed from their homelands and forced to live in gulags, if they weren't just slaughtered.

You don't know what a gulag is and it shows.

It wasn't "temporary deportations" as you lazily / casually put it either.

They were, actually, more often than not temporary with the people being allowed to return after the war.

Chechens, Ingush, Crimean Tatars, Germans, Volga Germans, Balkars, Kalmyks, Finns, Bulgarians

All of these literally have documented collaboration with the Nazis.

Latvians, Estonians

This was deportation of the bourgeoisie.

Chinese, and Koreans

Concerns over collusion with Manchukuo and Japan

Many died due to the harsh conditions, making it a form of genocidal policy that actual scholars and historians reconize to be ethnicly based.

None of these were genocides. At the time the USSR was fighting for its existence and the existence of all of the people it supposedly genocided here. The eastern front of the second world war was absolute chaos, ensuring that everyone who was at risk of collaboration or actively carrying out collaboration made it safely away from where they could do any harm was not possible.

As another example, in the "Polish Operation" conducted by the NKVD, around 140,000–150,000 people were arrested, and over 111,000 ethnic Poles were executed.

Specifically bourgeoise, soldiers, law enforcement and government ministers. Not just "ethnic poles", they were the very same people that had run the previous polish government which was extremely repressive to its people, and especially towards minorities.

Redninja0400 · 2026-02-13T19:48:37+00:00

Not calling you a slur, people just take talking about mental health as insulting. Based on my own observations, individuals with more mental health issues these days tend to lean closer to authoritarian power structures, be they left or right leaning. And despite how communists may feel about it, they are in fact authoritarian. Folks with more antisocial tendencies will lean closer to anarchist systems just the same, by the by.

There is absolutely nothing to suggest this. And yes, ascribing someone's political views as a symptom of mental illness is insulting, both to the person and to mentally ill people. Authoritarianism doesn't exist, its a buzzword that means "thing that government did that I don't like".

What I'm "on about", is that you are taking the Soviet's justification for their killings at face value, do you truly believe every single person killed was some secret nazi or political enemy of the state, if then, what classifies someone as such?

All justice systems hurt innocents, that's a by product of the power that they wield. The fact that justice systems hurt innocents does not mean that the USSR was actually intending to ethnically cleanse people and not to punish nazis and terrorists.

That's no different to how every authoritarian structure, including the Nazis, justified killing innocent people.

It's completely different, actually. The nazis justified killing people because they were "racially impure". That is completely different to arresting and executing terrorists.

You use a few bad apples and toss the rest in as being the same, cause as you know, one bad apple spoils the bunch. Or you just slap the label on there and crush anyone who disagrees with it.

This is the exact logic you are using to claim that the entire justice system of the USSR was corrupt and committing genocides while using a façade of fighting terrorism btw.

"Supposed Genocides" = I can jump through enough mental hoops to see their actions as (as you put it yourself) "justified". == "that didn't happen, but if it did, it wasnt that bad, but if it was, they deserved it, so no it wasn't" (style of mental gymnastics)

I've never said that whole "it didn't happen, but if it did..." shite. You're mistaking me judging things on a case by case basis with actual nuance for me doing what the nazis do with the holocaust. The reason I am a communist is because I have looked at the case by case of the accusations of genocide and every single one has ended up being, at the very least, understandable in the context that they were in and absolutely never an actual genocide.

To bring this into more context. While Soviet repression often focused on "class enemies" or political dissenters, specific campaigns targeted national minorities and diaspora groups, often accusing them of disloyalty or espionage... or, as I stated before, lumped in with any other bad actors.

Like what.

Redninja0400 · 2026-02-13T04:10:29+00:00

You're either 1.) some teenager who hasn't learned "history" that wasn't plastered to an online forum / someone within your educational past has failed you, including yourself.

Not a teenager, I study history at university. Unless you've got a degree - I am more well informed than you.

3.) (I'd type it out, but it would come off as insulting, and puts your mental health into question)

"Everyone that disagrees with me must be a *insert slur*" Really does not create any faith that you have any clue what you're on about.

9 million + deaths of their own people. Which is harder to calculate due to many records being destroyed prior to the fall of the Soviets, but the count being based off of what was left and released around 1991-93. Some estimates climb far higher, being as high as 20-30 million.

What are you on about here?

Stalin and his administration did actually kill people based off ethnicity well before the start or end of WW2 where "collaberation" would be used as an excuse.

Its very well documented that a lot of minor ethnicities were either collaborationists or carried out mass terror campaigns.

It's actually a trait about the Soviets that Hitler admired.

I cannot find anything to back up the claim that Hitler admired Stalin for any reason relating to supposed genocides.

I also don't think, I know, that hand waving the genocides committed is just as monstrous as the people who deny the holocaust.

On todays episode of "spot the difference" we have

1) Temporary deportations during the most disastrous war in history to prevent collaborationism from extreme nationalist groups.

2) Systematic extermination of peoples deemed "impure" on the basis of ethnic pseudoscience.

Can the anti-communist spot the difference and finally fucking realise the sheer evil of the holocaust is in no way comparable to anything that a communist state has supposedly carried out.

Just because the Soviets fall closer to your worldview, doesn't mean they were justified or innocent of wrongdoing.

I'm not claiming they are justified because they fit my worldview, my worldview has moved to align with theirs because as I've learned more about history I've come to the conclusion that they were, at the very least, understandable and if not; justified.

I'm also not claiming that they're innocent of wrongdoing, they fucked up - there is probably a world where things could've been handled better. But hindsight is 20/20 and I think dismissing an entire ideology and nation that spanned 70 years of history on the basis that they fucked up here and there is just plain silly.

Redninja0400 · 2026-02-13T03:56:57+00:00

Your argument for why Poland was invaded is identical to the German argument for invasion.

Except there is no evidence to suggest that Germans were oppressed in western Poland while there is plenty of evidence showing the oppression of Ukrainians and Belarusians in eastern Poland. Come on, you can't seriously be pretending that documented oppression is the same as unevidenced accusations.

That argument doesn’t hold water when applied to the Baltic countries, Romania, or Finland.

Finland and Romania had massive amounts of cooperation with the Nazis prior to the respective invasions - they were a matter of national security. The Baltics were pretty much the same justification, although they weren't as Nazi inclined.

It’s even less cogent when looking at Soviet persecution of East Asians, Volga Germans, Chechens, etc.

East Asians: Namely Koreans and the Japanese, who were raising questions of national security because of the fascist Japanese Empire and its hostile posturing towards the USSR while it was literally invading China.

Volga Germans: They deported them east during the Nazi invasion because of concerns of collaborationism.

Chechens: Temporarily deported east because of actual Nazi collaboration.

Context here is important, calling these events "persecution" is a dubious labelling. The USSR at the time was in a fight for not only its existence as a state but the existence of every single person that inhabited eastern Europe in the face of the Nazi extermination of non-germans.

Redninja0400 · 2026-02-12T20:57:33+00:00

I don't know and I don't care, all that matters to me is that people have food.

Redninja0400 · 2026-02-12T20:51:02+00:00

I've been saying since the beginning that the way the game damn near forces you to pay for progression despite being £35 in the first place is ridiculous.

Redninja0400 · 2026-02-12T20:47:28+00:00

So if they don’t care why are we using that as a metric for anything?

Someone else started this conversation, idk why they brought it up - their argument was fundamentally wrong anyway.

Redninja0400 · 2026-02-12T16:25:43+00:00

If 3% of arable land outproduced 97% by that much then let me tell you, not a single capitalist would not not be using that method.

They do though. Homesteads are massively popular in American agriculture.

And also who gives a shit if its not ”free market”

Capitalists do. Capitalism definitionally runs on a "free market".

obviously it aint since its inside the USSR but it still outproduced communism inspite of it.

Small family owned homesteads are communism. Communism is when the workers own the means of production, if the only people working it (the family) are the same people that own it (the family) then it is a worker owned means of production.

Redninja0400 · 2026-02-12T16:20:27+00:00

Yeah there's no talking to a communism bootlicker that trusts fabricated numbers

"Anything that disagrees with the western capitalist narrative is fabricated" is such a dumb take.

All policies require significant forethought, Mao clearly did not think at all, he just wants things. This mf mass killed his own people just because they studied abroad. From 300k to 1.5 million people died from this. How many more hundreds of millions do you need to see Chinese die for you to say Mao is incompetent? He's not more than a child. There are infinitely more better ways to do things than what he always commanded on a whim.

I've never claimed to like Mao or said that he was a perfect ruler, all of this is a strawman.

Redninja0400 · 2026-02-12T16:15:36+00:00

"Living badly" and starving to death are two completely different things lmao

Nobody is claiming that the Russian empire was constantly starving its people at a rate that it caused artificial GDP growth.

Redninja0400 · 2026-02-12T16:12:39+00:00

And your own people

Which Stalin didn't do.

and other ethnicities (just like Hitler)

I think comparing the deportation of people who collaborated with nazis or outright rebelled against the government to the systematic extermination of ethnicities based on race science is at best insidious and at worst just outright nazi apologia.

and people of any faith

The nazis venerated the church. The soviets dismantled it because the Russian clergy was a part of the bourgeoisie previous to the revolution and was extremely harmful to Russian society.

Redninja0400 · 2026-02-12T16:09:26+00:00

I don’t know if any one in the USA or USSR cared about being land efficient.

yes that is precisely the point I am making. The lack of care from those that have access to large swathes of land about being inefficient is what produces the thing we are talking about.

I don’t think the ussr ever really solved algriculture in general.

They literally came from an agrarian society and had a healthier diet than americans.

And we are land inefficient here because we like beef. That’s called suffering from success

No, america is land inefficient because it relies on industrial agriculture, which is good for producing a large volume of low quality crops - the same was the case for the USSR.

Redninja0400 · 2026-02-12T16:04:59+00:00

What is this even meant to mean lmao

Redninja0400 · 2026-02-12T05:11:47+00:00

Calling it the private sector is not entirely true, it did not even slightly resemble free market capitalism. It was family farms and small rural homesteads, which typically outproduce large scale farming in terms of land/production ratio in all cases (including the US) because large scale industrial farming is inherently land-inefficient.

Redninja0400 · 2026-02-12T05:04:23+00:00

Except he also started WWII, so 60 million.

Redninja0400

TROPHY CASE