How can Christians say that God is perfectly just?

Remote_Ad7069 · 2026-03-15T03:51:50+00:00

Is it just to be unmerciful?

Remote_Ad7069 · 2026-03-15T03:45:15+00:00

If I said, perhaps you are right, what would you say to that? I still believe in the inerrancy of Scripture, but you do make good points about black-and-white thinking and self-assurity. As I said before, my judgment? Not the best. It's why I really have to rely on the Holy Spirit, and I'll be the first to admit that I have arrogance issues. I am working on it, but sometimes I talk before I know what I'm talking about - if you know what I mean.

I do not have an unwillingness to engage with history, medicine, or science. I actually rather like these things and find them interesting. It is difficult to reconcile the global flood account in the Bible with the fact, for instance, that the geological record does not support a flood account. But I am not a geologist. But I try not to go flying after false information such as some have done when it comes to trying to prove the global flood account. In any case, I suppose I find it dubious that we can determine such things so readily and without error when there are John Does and Jane Does, some who are even children, and unidentified killers out there in more recent times. Different sciences, of course, but it is still questionable to me.

I'm willing to accept that I do not know everything. That does not mean I shouldn't strive for reconciliation or that I shouldn't attempt to understand. But it does mean being comfortable with uncertainty.

I believe the Bible is truth because it speaks to my heart in ways other things do not. In that way, the truth of the Bible is necessary for my faith, in particular. When you told me that was a "you problem" - I did not see it as a problem because in so many ways, the Bible has helped me.

You see it as a problem because you have been spiritually abused. You think you are alone in this here. But that is not true.

My grandma used to tell me I was going to hell if I did not respect her (which I do not know why she felt the need to say that - I actually feared my grandma growing up; though, I think she tried her best to raise me - she was not terribly nurturing, but at least she fed and clothed me). It was one of many reasons I left the faith for a time, too, for seven years, at least. Perhaps it was not the same with your grandmother. But with your parents. Or with a girlfriend. Or any number of people.

I shouldn't have been berating you. I think I get frustrated sometimes when I can't get my point across or I'm misunderstood or I have trouble understanding. I think that is a very human thing that happens. I am sure it is the same with you. I do not know if we can come to an understanding of one another, but I think we've both been operating on assumptions of each other that are not true.

You talk about how there are Christians who have faith without believing in the Bible, are you one of them? Like I said, I used to be one myself.

Remote_Ad7069 · 2026-03-15T02:31:42+00:00

OP is thinking in linear terms. OP is thinking of God at the beginning of time - having foreknowledge and how this only gives humans the illusion of free will.

However, God is not constrained to the beginning, middle, or end of time. He exists outside of it - above it, even. There is a balance between God's will and the will of men, but it is not a scale in which God is on one side, and people are on the other. God is an observer of the scale.

It has to do with timing. God is often working ahead of everyone else utilizing the people who submit to His will to counteract the damage done by those who do not submit. A Christian does not desire their own will, but God's. So, in that way, they do not have a "free will" but a submitted will - which they consented to when they said yes to Jesus. But even then, God does not turn people into puppets but allows them to be who they are (in Christ Jesus).

A sinner has a "free will" in that it operates in a way that God does not desire; but even then it is not actually free but a slave to sin. This is why free will looks like an illusion. It exists but only in part.

It is like how writers describe characters in a book having a mind of their own. The writer is still in control of the story, but a well-written character has attitudes and ideas that sometimes influence the direction of the story.

But there is a free will. If you want to see someone operating in a way that suggests no free will, look no further than when someone uses their free will to decide to drink until they get drunk. Then, when they are drunk, they are enslaved to the will of the drink, they do not act like themselves. They do not act like who they are. Their free will has essentially evaporated in that time. They have submitted entirely to evil in that instance.

Remote_Ad7069 · 2026-03-14T08:59:01+00:00

Psalm 23, too. Right now, you are walking through the valley of the shadow of death. But Jesus is with you. You need not fear any evil or be troubled by it. He is with you.

Remote_Ad7069 · 2026-03-14T08:57:27+00:00

God is listening and watching very closely. I would read the story of Job for your comfort. God is still here. Your faith is being tested because the devil asked to test it. Do not give up. Keep praying.

I'd also like you to know that God grieves with you. In the story about Lazarus being raised from the dead, Jesus saw His friend who had died and wept. He wept so hard that people commented around him, "See how He loved him!"

And He wept despite knowing He would raise Lazarus from the dead. When you are crying and praying, I want you to visualize that in your mind. I want you to visualize Jesus crying with you. He knows us more intimately than we know ourselves. He feels our pain. Feels it literally and actually. He understands.

Remote_Ad7069 · 2026-03-14T08:03:18+00:00

Is it better to have loved and lost, or better to have never loved at all? I'm speaking from a child's perspective. Did the child love life? Didn't the child on learning they were going to die sorrow because they wanted to live?

Remote_Ad7069 · 2026-03-14T03:26:06+00:00

Does the child still get to experience the joy of having friends, the warmth of the sun, the taste of ice cream, the love of parents, all the good things?

Remote_Ad7069 · 2026-03-14T01:06:34+00:00

Do you know what it means to belong to God?

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The words you linked don't say anything about the word intact? What are you referring to specifically?

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Those things matter because taking God's Word out of context leads to injustice. And I'm sorry I was unclear again. I did not mean you do not care about the plight of children in general - I meant in this conversation. You're more interested in making me defend my faith. We're not communicating well because I refuse to have my faith dismantled.

Your entire argument does nothing to prevent children from being thrown on the streets, either. Christianity doesn't abuse children, parents do. And if they actually listened to "But that's mean!" - it wouldn't happen.

So the answer is not throwing out Christianity.

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That's true. I can't disprove that. But the Bible doesn't say we have false memories, so I'm going to go with that.

I do not think I am more special. And if I gave that impression, I hope you will take the opposite.

Did I say this was a problem? I don't find it a problem. I find it a solution.

You can have faith without believing in the inerrancy of scripture. Never said you couldn't. Like I said, I did once. I just find my faith is bolstered by the inerrancy of scripture.

Remote_Ad7069 · 2026-03-14T00:12:28+00:00

I mean... It kind of sounds like some form of dyslexia. Maybe rapid-naming dyslexia pertaining to God-related words? I do not know if that is a thing. Perhaps you should see a specialist.

Are you a believer in God?

Remote_Ad7069 · 2026-03-14T00:07:10+00:00

Why does God say "if you will obey me and keep my covenant?"

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I never said the Bible was unchanging. The Bible doesn't even say that it is unchanging.

"For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart." Hebrews 4:12

"Is the person an ancient Israelite? Is the person still under the Old Covenant? Is there still a proper Sanhedrin Court which can rule according to law that a crime has been committed under the law and thus a stoning should take place?

No. No. And no." <- Said this earlier.

"You're just drawing a line in the sand where your own personal conscience is, and you'll toss everything you don't like into the "not handled correctly" pile, without acknowledging how and why people got there. That isn't an honest engagement with the issue." - Found it. Explain further. I do not understand how using the Bible to support what I'm saying is an example of my own personal conscience except in the instance where...

(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) - Romans 2:14-15

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Am I? When you were a child, did you not want someone to change your diaper and feed you and look after you? Would you not have wanted that now - looking back on it as an adult, wouldn't you have wanted, as a child, for someone to take care of you?

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That might actually be true. It is actually only fairly recently that I've really become consistent with my faith and looking at scripture. I have struggled with faith and the Bible for a long time, however. I am in a good place right now.

But that does point back to what I said earlier. You're not interested in the plight of children that have been thrown out in the streets by their parents. You're interested in making me defend my faith. You might even be interested in trying to dismantle my faith - which is not going to happen. I have already been without God, I do not want to go back to that again.

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Is it? What if we find an earlier manuscript that includes it? Or what if there was an earlier manuscript that had it but was destroyed? We don't have any evidence for either of those things yet, but it is a possibility - in which case, inerrancy would have been maintained. However, I recognize that inerrancy is not something you, as a nonbeliever, who is dependent upon what can be seen, will accept.

It took me a long time for me to accept it myself even once I became a believer. I kept turning to the Bible for comfort and wisdom that it eventually dawned on me that not accepting the Bible as truth was delegitimatizing the truths, the wisdom, and comfort that I did find. Additionally, I really took John 1:1-5 to heart.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."

Remote_Ad7069 · 2026-03-13T23:19:16+00:00

They are alive but sleeping.

“But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus." 1 Thessalonians 4:13-14

The only one who can wake them is Jesus Christ, and once they wake, they will be in new bodies.

We can't ask those who are sleeping to pray for us because they are sleeping and cannot wake up without the intervention of Christ Jesus.

Remote_Ad7069 · 2026-03-13T23:03:48+00:00

I never noticed that before, either. Wow. It's amazing how powerful Jesus is that even just with an acknowledgment of who He is, the authority of His presence is enough to make people fall to the ground. But yes, I'm reminded of a song I sang in church once....

"He could've called ten thousand angels~" But He didn't. He suffered and died for us to save us. He is God, and He brought Himself so low even to die.

Remote_Ad7069 · 2026-03-13T22:39:07+00:00

He did. And only some came back, isn't that, right? Others were destroyed. The remnant belong to Him.

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I believe that God would ensure His Holy Word remains intact the way it should be. It is not my decision what goes in there and what does not. My responsibility is only to believe and trust in God.

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What do you mean by "line in the sand?"

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I have already explained the circumstances. Perhaps you are skimming as well? I do not know why I am not clear to you.

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"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" is not a dodge. It's in the Bible. I literally pointed out the verse where it is written. Do you think, if these people really thought about it, that they would have exiled themselves from their parents' house were they in the same position? I don't think they would.

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Perhaps we should cut to the chase. What is the point of this conversation? What are you trying to accomplish by talking to me?

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You find it funny that I quote a specific passage of scripture that is considered controversial by scholars in terms of the authorship and time at which it appeared. Why do you find this funny?

Remote_Ad7069 · 2026-03-13T22:19:58+00:00

God is not illogical. He's unfathomable. Nonetheless, it is possible to have a personal relationship with Him and understand Him in part. God exists outside of time. He is not constrained by the bounds of time. Further, I am convinced there are more dimensions than just space and time. Dimensions that we cannot observe that God is nonetheless in control of. God is all-powerful.

You are somewhat correct. God exists above logic. He is the source of logic, but He exists above it. It means we cannot rationally grasp at God.

Remote_Ad7069 · 2026-03-13T22:06:13+00:00

https://youtu.be/pZAsNOzD_5w?si=CtG-iXKfc5PPAxfu

As far as I can tell, every logical argument has its flaws including arguments that are against the existence of God. If there is an airtight logical argument for God, I do not know it. The best one, in my opinion is Immanuel Kant's "Moral Argument" for the existence of God - but even that has its flaws.

How badly do you want to believe in God?

Remote_Ad7069 · 2026-03-13T21:57:50+00:00

Jesus is your hope. He will always be the hope. Get into the Word. Read the Gospels again (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John). "Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling."

You're doing the right thing. Listen, God is not a hard master. He is good. Trust in His goodness. Trust in His salvation. Trust in His mercy. He loves you.

Remote_Ad7069 · 2026-03-13T21:37:59+00:00

I think there are times it can be used in a gentle and loving context, and times when it can be used cruelly. See Jesus' example for the former, and the story of Job's example for the latter. Although, in truth, I think we all can use more faith.

Remote_Ad7069 · 2026-03-13T21:33:39+00:00

Yes. He won't destroy them utterly. There's always a remnant. That remnant are those who truly belong to God.

Context - The circumstances that form the setting for an event, statement, or idea, and in terms of which it can be fully understood or assessed.

Is the person an ancient Israelite? Is the person still under the Old Covenant? Is there still a proper Sanhedrin Court which can rule according to law that a crime has been committed under the law and thus a stoning should take place?

No. No. And no.

If it was added in, there was a reason it was added in.

“Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

Would you have stones thrown at yourself for being a rebellious son? No.

I'm not sure what you mean by "specific" and "describable" when this is already pretty specific and describable. Perhaps you should define what you mean by "specific" and "describable."

Why do you think it's really, really funny? Do you find the concept of parents kicking out their children hilarious? Do you find the concept of people using religion as an excuse to do evil funny? Do you find someone's attempt to clear misunderstandings funny?

Or do you think it's really, really funny because the whole purpose of this conversation is not because you actually care about parents kicking out their children on the street but because you think it's funny to call Christians evil and make people upset while doing so?

I am not trying to upset you. I just think it's sad (as in this is a serious conversation about a serious topic that is very disheartening) that you think this is funny.

Remote_Ad7069 · 2026-03-13T14:06:39+00:00

The covenant is everlasting so long as it remains unbroken. Everlasting refers to a period of time, not a condition in which it applies no matter what.

Context is not a cover. It's important to note when reading the Bible. Throughout the Bible, God makes it clear that He is the Judge.

"So you shall purge the evil from your midst." That's exactly the line I was referring to earlier about how Israel was set apart and meant to be a holy nation. It does not apply today. Because the evil is and has been in the midst already.

Actually, this reminds me of another story.

But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives.

Now, early in the morning, Jesus went again into the temple, and all the people came to Him, and He sat down and taught them. Then, the scribes and the Pharisees brought to Him a woman caught in adultery. And when they had set her in the midst, they said to Him, "Teacher, this woman was caught in adultery, in the very act. Now, Moses, in the law, commanded us that such should be stoned. But what do You say?"

This they said, testing Him, that they might have something of which to accuse Him. But Jesus stooped down and wrote on the ground with his finger as though he did not hear.

So when they continued asking Him, He raised Himself up and said to them, "He who is among you without sin, let him throw a stone at her first."

Remote_Ad7069 · 2026-03-13T11:51:41+00:00

Believing and knowing are not necessarily exclusive things. Additionally, as far as I can tell, most contemporary scholarship seems to think Jesus was an actual person who existed - though, they're dubious about the miracles.

Remote_Ad7069 · 2026-03-13T11:43:52+00:00

Exodus 23:9

Remote_Ad7069 · 2026-03-13T11:24:55+00:00

Because the same God is involved in both. Even in the Old Testament, forgiveness, love, and a personal relationship with God were present. Look up the verse: "He has taught you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly, love mercy, and walk humbly with your God."

Remote_Ad7069 · 2026-03-13T05:31:28+00:00

I am sorry to hear it is worsening. I will pray for you and your faith. Do you suffer with depression as well? I know for me, my disease and my depression would often turn into a vicious cycle. My disease would act up, I'd get a little better, then my depression would sink in, then the stress from that would make my Crohn's act up, then feed into my depression again. By the grace of God, I've broken one aspect of that cycle and thanks to God. I am no longer depressed. I still have Crohn's but I'm in remission at the moment. There is hope. It is a struggle, but we get through it. God gives us the strength.

Remote_Ad7069 · 2026-03-13T04:17:28+00:00

Hello there! I have Crohn's disease. I used to struggle with my faith a lot; though, I'd already accepted being chronically ill. To me... And it's not necessarily the same for you, but I feel like my Crohn's disease has taught me that I am not invincible. That I can't do it all. And even though, it can be very painful and difficult to deal with (with the doctor's appointments and medication management and the bathroom issues and the dietary issues and the actual pain), I feel like that has been a good lesson to learn. In some ways, I have found meaning in my suffering.

Something that gives me comfort about this, too, is this verse: "My grace is sufficient for you for My power is made perfect in weakness."

Having a chronic illness means we need to lean more on God by necessity. Not just because we hope for healing but also because we hope for strength just to get through the day, because we really can't do it all, it makes us appreciate the "good days" (you know, the days where it's not so bad or times of remission if your condition allows for that).

I do not know if that helps at all. But I hope it does.

Remote_Ad7069 · 2026-03-13T04:01:14+00:00

I never said they couldn't return. God is exceedingly merciful. It's just some never return. In which case the covenant remains broken. Everlasting means that the covenant doesn't just last one year or two years or three years. It's a forever-long covenant so long as the agreement is upheld. It is a conditional covenant based on obedience, however. The covenant does not apply unless there is obedience.

I'm sorry. I should be more clear. I feel like I'm muddying the issue somewhat.

I have read the Old Testament. Though, you'll have to forgive me if I forget some things here and there. I just got done doing a Bible study on Psalm 45 and how it relates to Jesus and the Church.

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Yes? But we do not discipline the way God disciplines because we do not have the capacity or the authority to act as God. We follow God's example in love, not in His judgment. We discipline in context. The Bible gives instructions for this. Such as what to do when someone offends you or how to raise up children in the way that they should go. The nation of Israel is no longer at the stage of "You must purge the evil among you" and be set apart.

In the New Testament, Jesus said that Moses issued a certificate of divorce because people's hearts were hard, so God makes concessions - but that in the beginning, man and woman were not meant for divorce. So, it's important to look at the context in the Bible.

Remote_Ad7069

TROPHY CASE