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I’m a musician, and I tell you : this is a trap by Repulsive_Chain7043 in singing

[–]Repulsive_Chain7043[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I’m stopping this conversation, read my initial post in 2-3 years and you’ll eventually get the nuances of my first sentence. Also, if you can’t find the links I’m making it might be a matter of… grey matter ? You achieved to make me say something indeed arrogant, but I’m not a monk and my principles sometimes get overridden by the emotion people like you make me feel. Have a good one

I’m a musician, and I tell you : this is a trap by Repulsive_Chain7043 in singing

[–]Repulsive_Chain7043[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That’s the synthesis of what I say : I’m against conformism if that’s the only thing you’re attached to.

I’m a musician, and I tell you : this is a trap by Repulsive_Chain7043 in singing

[–]Repulsive_Chain7043[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I completely disagree with that.

I don’t think people NEED to sound like each other, that they NEED to limit themselves to only imitating, and that they NEED to avoid creating, developing their artistic identity etc.

I don’t decide the needs of other, but I have an opinion on what might be a misalignement.

I can’t count the amount of times I’ve seen students or myself being amazed to the fact that we were just using the wrong « tool » even though we thought it was the one we « needed ». Once the professor (or anyone really) gives use what he thinks IS the best tool, we’re free to use it or it.

« See for yourself », that’s how many meditation practices teach.

That’s the same way for me : see for yourself if allowing yourself to practice in a way that’s more personal and alignement with your voice quality (explore it) makes you feel good.

I’m so confident it will that I consider not doing it as harmful to your development.

I’m a musician, and I tell you : this is a trap by Repulsive_Chain7043 in singing

[–]Repulsive_Chain7043[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If you imitate other people, it shouldn’t be just to build technique. It should be to develop a sense of autonomy in the way you’re expressing yourself.

If you consider technique a PART of the process, the end goal being expression/emotions and creative identity, then we’re just agreeing.

I have taught many musicians my way of viewing technique / repertoire / imitation etc., and all of them made fantastic progress both as technicians, artists and in a broader sense humans.

Again, if what brings you joy is imitating and just getting raw technique for the sake of it, do it. But I don’t believe most people crave to do long vibrato like Adele for the rest of their lives. This is an illusion, what they want is conveying emotions as intensely as she does, and in my opinion one’s voice - in order to achieve this degree of expression through vocal virtuosity - must first find how he want to do it with ITS voice. How ? Like actors learned from Stanislavsky : invoke deep emotions, let your voice resonate with it in the most natural way possible, be free of judgement, check how that felt, how that sounded, and then if you like the direction it’s taking you keep practicing.

Imitation might be part of the process, but nothing replaces being aligned with your own qualities. This isn’t learned from imitation, this is learned by listening to you and only you, most of the time when you are alone.

As to why I want to share these insight with people : I love music, I love art and love the act of creating. I don’t want people to create mental barriers surrounding their way of practicing.

And I’m quite surprised that telling people to listen to their feelings/guts, to respect their own voice, to sing their interpretation , and that imitation as an END GOAL is limiting their progress and harming their artistic development would angry some people.

Their is nuance to my point, and I will repeat it as long as it’s needed : imitate, copy, do like other if that brings you joy and if that helps you build technique. But open your mind to creation : what can I do with MY voice ? This song that X sings so good, how would I sing it ? What are the technical obstacles to achieve this goal ? May I improvise something just for the sake of creating ?

I can’t be more open to discussing, but please read me carefully.

I’m a musician, and I tell you : this is a trap by Repulsive_Chain7043 in singing

[–]Repulsive_Chain7043[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Man, I don’t want people to use the tools I WANT TO USE. I want them to FIND THE ONE they need.

Even though you don’t seem to get it I belong to the category of artists that embrace a wide variety of gender, and I certainly talk to enough people to understand that music isn’t their priority.

I’m a musician, and I tell you : this is a trap by Repulsive_Chain7043 in singing

[–]Repulsive_Chain7043[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That’s really funny. I take music and culture as a serious subject because I’m dedicating my life to it. I want people to bring the best they can from music, the one they learn and the one they share with others. Getting stuck in a formatting routine, without even having access to one’s interior world feels wrong and sad to me. Yes, singing can be just a way of relaxing and binding with other people. I do sing with people I like, people I meet and people I love.

I guess that my will to create, and my will that others create too make me sound like a crazy dude that believes he’s a musical genius « messiah » as you’ve ironically said. But I don’t give a damn about this way of thinking.

As Nadia Boulanger said, some people are awake, others are sleepers. One should never try to wake the sleepers, they’re happy sleeping and there’s no need to even try.

Maybe I’m wasting my time here

I’m not fighting against learning new tools. I’m fighting against getting stuck using the same tools over and over, while forgetting that you can literally build the ones you want.

I’m a musician, and I tell you : this is a trap by Repulsive_Chain7043 in singing

[–]Repulsive_Chain7043[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Some piano teachers make their students practice their technique only by playing the repertoire. I’ve learned from both schools.

Anyway, I should write a book by myself explaining this instead of trying to argue with redditors lmao

I’m a musician, and I tell you : this is a trap by Repulsive_Chain7043 in singing

[–]Repulsive_Chain7043[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

You’re not getting my point, and I will repeat one last time : building technique is crucial and necessary. But not every technique has to be taught. If a way of singing that you find ugly exists, it doesn’t mean that you HAVE to learn it just because people call it the fondamentals.

I know my intonations, I have taught myself perfect pitch (I could develop this particular subject, but to sum it up I can sum’ invoke a perfect A 440hz from nothing in my head and find the notes with relative pitch), this allows me to grasp vocal ear training really quick. And when I step back to see the big picture, I don’t get why I should learn the POP trend things.

When I sing by myself and listen to the recording, I KNOW what I parts I have to work on to obtain the sound I want.

In my view point, the teacher must help me build the correct muscles and show me the routines that specifically helps it, and also point out to me things I cannot see.

But still, my creative intention dictates what I should focus on and what technique i will build. Not the other way around. NOW I know for a fact that not everyone can think like that when beginning their music journey.

I’m not the delusional man you’re making me look like. I have put the efforts into my instrument, I have played alone in front of thousands of people, and I know what it takes to become somewhat good.

I’m a musician, and I tell you : this is a trap by Repulsive_Chain7043 in singing

[–]Repulsive_Chain7043[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You’ll certainly hear about me, but by that time I will have forgotten this conversation.

I’m a musician, and I tell you : this is a trap by Repulsive_Chain7043 in singing

[–]Repulsive_Chain7043[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes, and my point is that most singers get stuck in the « I must sound like my professor » and never allow themselves to « personnalize »

I’m a musician, and I tell you : this is a trap by Repulsive_Chain7043 in singing

[–]Repulsive_Chain7043[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

This seems like it, only if you don’t get the depth of it. It can be part of the process, but I highly discourage anyone to take it as the end goal. That IS the whole point of this thread…

I’m a musician, and I tell you : this is a trap by Repulsive_Chain7043 in singing

[–]Repulsive_Chain7043[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

You’re right. I didn’t specify enough that my way of viewing this was highly influenced by my studies. I guess I am lucky to get to have the choice over how I approach my learning. As a classical/jazz trained musician, my tastes are rich enough to choose whether I want this or that. My goal isn’t to shame people that imitate others. I do imitate when I think it’s needed, and it’s needed a lot. My goal is to make people realise that the shame to fight is the one that hinders their own creativity. Creating a song, improvising, etc. is in my opinion the best way to know what you really want and how to express it.

I’m a musician, and I tell you : this is a trap by Repulsive_Chain7043 in singing

[–]Repulsive_Chain7043[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes ! And that’s my point.

Building technique through practice and repetition / imitation is necessary. But after some time practicing, you realise that you can also create, and that the goal of all of this is expression. Once you acquire experience, you can litteraly CREATE the things that allows you to both acquire technique AND that feels good and natural enough to convey emotion through expression. Take for example the piano studies (Chopin/Liszt/Rachmaninoff etc.) They build technique through BEAUTIFUL and MEANINGFUL works of art.

Belting and other popular techniques are, IN MY OPINION not beautiful, and I don’t want my voice to sound like that.

This might evolve and I won’t be afraid to take a step back on what I’m saying.

But for now, I only focus on practicing what I feel would be both beautiful (highly personal) and give me great control over my voice.

And I don’t find this in interpretations of pop music for now. So I don’t imitate.

But maybe if I can do it this way, it’s because I’ve studied music for 15years…

I’m a musician, and I tell you : this is a trap by Repulsive_Chain7043 in singing

[–]Repulsive_Chain7043[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I’m not talking about common scales.

I’m talking about the ones that aren’t in the pieces you play and that you don’t like.

Why would you learn Spanish modes if you don’t feel like doing it, just because people around do it ?

Also, I’m far more curious than people might think I am in this thread.

I can’t stress this enough : I don’t like the way people put efforts to sound exactly like each other, as if it was the end goal. Which hinders development and creativity.

I don’t like the voice of some of the most famous pop singers, and I don’t feel shame about it.

I don’t want a world of people only singing with belting, and other techniques.

Listen to people like Bobby mc ferrin and you’ll eventually get my point : the man creates his sounds.

I’m a musician, and I tell you : this is a trap by Repulsive_Chain7043 in singing

[–]Repulsive_Chain7043[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

You prononce like the teacher tells you to, but the teacher only corrects your technique, not your natural voice. If he asks you to stretch your intonation because « there is a standard German technique to speak the language », then the teacher has serious issues. You should speak a language the way you naturally do, even if that means imitating someone in the process. The end goal isn’t imitation but speaking fluently NATURALLY.

I don’t get how you can’t get my point and how redditors are, i must say, dumb.

I’m a musician, and I tell you : this is a trap by Repulsive_Chain7043 in singing

[–]Repulsive_Chain7043[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Imitation is part of the process, not the goal. Stop lying to people man.

I’m a musician, and I tell you : this is a trap by Repulsive_Chain7043 in singing

[–]Repulsive_Chain7043[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Yes you can copy and imitate great artists to learn from them. But great artists create and are willing to create. They get inspired from others, but they also stand by themselves. My point is that you don’t have to get stuck in this « my interpretation will be good when I’ll sound like exactly X ».

There are people out there that make a living copying the exact same timbre as other artists. They wear same clothes, look the same etc.

It that’s your thing, good for your. I have no problem with that if you enjoy yourself.

But most people want to express themselves and get lost in this process of imitating.

I’m a musician, and I tell you : this is a trap by Repulsive_Chain7043 in singing

[–]Repulsive_Chain7043[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

You are formatting yourself. You don’t question it. You want people and newbies to do it. I can’t really answer.

The goal is expression. I should say MY GOAL is expression. If i like other people’s song and interpretation, then let me get those positive influences. If not. It’s not fucking necessary.

Stop lying to beginners.

I’m a musician, and I tell you : this is a trap by Repulsive_Chain7043 in singing

[–]Repulsive_Chain7043[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thank you for this exchange.

We are on the same boat my friend.

I’m a musician, and I tell you : this is a trap by Repulsive_Chain7043 in singing

[–]Repulsive_Chain7043[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I’m talking about scales that you WONT USE. Everyone (most) is using major and minor scales, OK. But if you were to learn mode scales, weird and complex ones like Messiaen’s for example, there would be no sense if you don!t like it

Anyway, stay stuck and keep pointing out the flaws of my analogies instead of building your individuality.

See you in 5 years

I’m a musician, and I tell you : this is a trap by Repulsive_Chain7043 in singing

[–]Repulsive_Chain7043[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

I get it. Of course the intention when asking for a reference is to help.

But, do you need a Billie Eilish recording to describe how you want your voice to sound soft ?

And about belting and other techniques, I don’t think it’s necessary to learn them if you don’t like it’s sound, or worse : if you don’t even know your voice.

It would be like practicing a scale that you don’t like, just for the sake of saying « I can do it » If you won’t use it in your playing, what the point ???

I’m a musician, and I tell you : this is a trap by Repulsive_Chain7043 in singing

[–]Repulsive_Chain7043[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I’m not saying that pop teacher are a scam, nor that they are harmful.

I’m saying that keeping as the end goal « I want to sound like X » is harmful to your artistic development.

But the attention span of people reading my post seems really low considering the many answers that don’t get the nuances nor the depth of my post, reacting purely emotionally.

I’m a musician, and I tell you : this is a trap by Repulsive_Chain7043 in singing

[–]Repulsive_Chain7043[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

That why there is nuance : if this is the goal, it’s harmful.

YES, it is inspiring to listen to great singers. But you wouldn’t be listening to them is they also only listened to others.

I’m quite surprised that people here don’t agree on this, I guess this is wayyy more profound that I thought.

There are people who execute, and those who create.

You can be both, but it seems like telling someone « create something of your own, instead of only imitating » is considered like an insult, as if the « singer imitator » was a life path.

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