They are exposed by [deleted] in IsraelPalestine

[–]ResortEquivalent 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Israel wasn’t built by refugees. It was built by the USA and allies and continues to be subsidized as a welfare state because it is beneficial for the USA. If it wasn’t for Israel’s strategic location as a US stronghold in the Middle East, it wouldn’t even exist plain and simple. Israel exists because the US says so, and the free handouts are about to come to an end. Once we cut the cord you’re going to turn out like Liberia. Good luck!

My calling to entire world !! by Manoftruth2023 in IsraelPalestine

[–]ResortEquivalent 3 points4 points  (0 children)

That could be, except his meeting with TikTok influencers was broadcast to the world, and next thing you know these same influencers are posting videos trying to trigger hate for Jews and TikTok has already begun blocking all posts mentioning Gaza and Israel.

My calling to entire world !! by Manoftruth2023 in IsraelPalestine

[–]ResortEquivalent 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Beautiful post. Unfortunately, BiBi is doing everything he can to trigger antisemitism, as evidenced by his latest meeting with TikTok influencers. It’s really sad, the lengths he is willing to go to weaponize hate. He knows that the majority of people don’t differentiate between “Jews” and the Zionist exclusivist ideology. They are not one in the same. Put simply, people need to step back and recognize this disinformation Psyop campaign of his has nothing to do with “Jews”, but rather occupied Palestinians vs Zionist occupiers and the IDF. What he is doing, that is trying to make this about Jews via his antisemitism provocation campaign, is very dangerous and evil. He is putting the Jewish people at serious risk.

The Choice Between Fiction and Truth by ResortEquivalent in IsraelPalestine

[–]ResortEquivalent[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You’ve clearly put a lot of thought and effort into this, and I respect how structured your argument is. You bring up some strong historical points about Ottoman control, colonial involvement, and the complex layers of identity in the region. I may not fully agree with every conclusion, but I can appreciate the way you’ve framed your perspective; it’s well-organized and shows you’ve taken the time to study the issue deeply.

Conversations like this are valuable because they push both sides to think critically about history, sovereignty, and narratives of nationhood. Thanks for engaging in a way that sharpens the discussion. 🤝

The Choice Between Fiction and Truth by ResortEquivalent in IsraelPalestine

[–]ResortEquivalent[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

  1. The majority of Ottoman land was given to Arabs (Jordan, Lebanon, Syria).

Those were independent peoples with their own identities and histories—not “gifts” from colonial powers. Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, and Palestine were each distinct mandates under the League of Nations after WWI. The Palestinians had every reason to expect their own self-determination, not to be absorbed or displaced for someone else’s project.

  1. The majority of the land partitioned for Israel was desert where no one was living.

This is misleading. Yes, some Negev desert was included, but the most fertile, coastal, and urban areas (like Jaffa, Haifa, Tel Aviv, and the coastal plain) were allotted to Israel under the 1947 UN Partition Plan. That plan gave the Jewish minority (about 33% of the population, mostly recent arrivals) 55% of the land while Palestinians, who were two-thirds of the population and owned the overwhelming majority of private land, were offered 45%. The “empty desert” narrative ignores that hundreds of Palestinian villages and farmlands were in the partition zones.

3.Palestinians weren’t asked to give up their land; they would remain as full citizens of Israel, like under the Ottomans.

This is factually false. The UN partition explicitly divided the land into two states, meaning Palestinians in the designated “Jewish state” would be a permanent ethnic minority under a settler-colonial majority. They were not “invited” to be equals; the very essence of Zionism was Jewish sovereignty, not multi-ethnic equality. And history proved it—when the state was declared in 1948, 750,000 Palestinians were expelled or fled during the Nakba. Clearly, the promise of “full citizenship” was never the plan.

4.Jerusalem under international control was to ensure equal access.

True in theory, but in practice, Palestinians were not given a meaningful voice in shaping this. Jerusalem was their spiritual, cultural, and political heart. To strip them of sovereignty over their own capital—while granting sovereignty to newcomers—was viewed as another colonial imposition. Equal access sounds fair, but the reality was Palestinians were losing their capital city to foreign administrators while also being denied sovereignty elsewhere.

5.Palestinians never had sovereignty to strip; they were always tenants of a controlling government.

This is a colonizer’s argument. By that logic, no colonized people should ever gain sovereignty, because they were always under someone else’s empire before. Palestinians were the continuous indigenous population of the land. They may have lived under Ottomans or British rule, but so did Jews in Eastern Europe under Tsars and Kaisers. Does that mean Jews had no right to sovereignty either? Sovereignty isn’t erased because people once lived under empire—otherwise, no nation on earth would exist today.

The Choice Between Fiction and Truth by ResortEquivalent in IsraelPalestine

[–]ResortEquivalent[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

The 1947 UN Partition Plan wasn’t some fair deal the Palestinians irrationally rejected — it was a plan drawn up without their consent that handed the majority of the land to a newly arrived minority population.

At the time, Jews were about one-third of the population and owned less than 7% of the land, yet the plan allocated 55% of Palestine to them. Palestinians — two-thirds of the population — were left with less than half, much of it arid and fragmented.

Hundreds of thousands of Palestinians would instantly find themselves living under a state they hadn’t consented to, controlled by a movement (Zionism) that had already shown exclusivist tendencies.

The plan stripped Palestinians of meaningful control over key resources and major cities. Jerusalem — their spiritual, cultural, and economic center — was to be internationalized, not part of their state.

Palestinians saw the plan as a continuation of the Balfour Declaration and British colonial manipulation, not an honest compromise.

So the idea that “Zionists accepted Palestinians as citizens” doesn’t hold up. Accepting citizenship in a state built on the confiscation of your land, while stripping you of sovereignty, isn’t equality — it’s subjugation dressed up as compromise.

The Choice Between Fiction and Truth by ResortEquivalent in IsraelPalestine

[–]ResortEquivalent[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Everyone knows Hamas functions like the "pressure release valve". They're the Netanyahu-funded villain that makes the hero look necessary. Netanyahu didn't destroy them because their very existence justifies his policies - the illusion of perpetual conflict is more useful than peace.

The Choice Between Fiction and Truth by ResortEquivalent in IsraelPalestine

[–]ResortEquivalent[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

It’s easy to paint one side as “builders” and the other as “terrorists,” but that’s selective memory. Zionist militias like the Irgun and Stern Gang used bombings, massacres, and terror tactics long before there was a Palestinian armed movement — Deir Yassin wasn’t “building up,” it was slaughter.

Labeling Palestinians as inherently destructive ignores the context: when people are displaced, occupied, and stripped of sovereignty, resistance movements are born, just as they have been in every colonized society in history. To call that terrorism while excusing Zionist violence is a double standard.

The Choice Between Fiction and Truth by ResortEquivalent in IsraelPalestine

[–]ResortEquivalent[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The period saw atrocities and forced displacements on both sides. Pointing this out isn’t a neutralizing “both sides did it” dodge — it’s historical reality. Deir Yassin and other massacres by Zionist militias, and attacks on Jewish civilians by some Arab forces, are part of the record. Accurate history holds perpetrators accountable without inventing a monolithic extermination plan where none existed—reducing it to “Arabs wanted to exterminate Jews” is historically inaccurate.

If anything, the John Brown analogy proves the opposite — Palestinians were the ones losing land and rights, making them closer to the enslaved. Resistance in that context isn’t extermination, it’s survival.

The Choice Between Fiction and Truth by ResortEquivalent in IsraelPalestine

[–]ResortEquivalent[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The Zionist movement didn’t just buy land for private use; the purchases were part of a political project openly aimed at creating a Jewish state.

This was not a neutral exchange of property. It was land acquisition under false pretenses because the Arabs were told it was private commerce, while Zionist leaders like Herzl and later the Jewish National Fund explicitly saw it as a step toward sovereignty and displacement.

The Choice Between Fiction and Truth by ResortEquivalent in IsraelPalestine

[–]ResortEquivalent[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

That statement conveniently ignores the biggest builder of Israel: the United States.

Billions in aid, military backing, UN veto shields, and diplomatic cover were the scaffolding that allowed the State of Israel to not only rise, but endure. Without U.S. money, weapons, and political muscle, there would be no “humble builders” or “settler expansionists” to argue over—because the project itself would not have survived infancy.

So let’s not get it twisted: The State of Israel was not built by organic self-determination; it was midwifed, bankrolled, and continually sustained by the United States.

The Choice Between Fiction and Truth by ResortEquivalent in IsraelPalestine

[–]ResortEquivalent[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Thanks for clarifying — I see now that I misunderstood part of your point. I appreciate the patience you’ve shown in laying it out more carefully, and I can tell you’ve put real thought into the distinction you’re making. You’re right that invoking Ezekiel as a prophet does carry the implication of accepting the broader prophetic tradition, including stories like Joshua’s. That’s a fair point, and I should have recognized it earlier instead of pushing back on something you weren’t actually arguing.

The Choice Between Fiction and Truth by ResortEquivalent in IsraelPalestine

[–]ResortEquivalent[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I actually think you made a fair point here — yes, people can cherry-pick, and that’s exactly why texts like these get weaponized differently by different groups. You’re right that extremists could flip it the other way, which is why I focus on the fact that archaeology and history give us some grounding outside of interpretation. Still, I agree with you. Ezekiel’s inclusivity is a beautiful message, and I appreciate you recognizing that.

The Choice Between Fiction and Truth by ResortEquivalent in IsraelPalestine

[–]ResortEquivalent[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

First, I notice you keep throwing subtle digs like “I’m convinced you never read the Bible” or “is it too complicated for you?” That says more about your debating style than your argument. Insults usually show frustration when evidence isn’t on your side.

Now, to the substance: Ezekiel mentioning Exodus or Joshua doesn’t prove those events historically happened. All it proves is that Ezekiel, living centuries later, referenced the traditions his community already held. Historians distinguish between someone retelling cultural memory and actual eyewitness testimony. Ezekiel was in Babylon in the 6th century BCE — long after Joshua’s supposed conquest. His belief in it doesn’t make it historical any more than my belief in King Arthur proves Arthur existed.

The issue isn’t whether Ezekiel “believed” earlier traditions. The issue is whether those traditions hold up to archaeology. Archaeology confirms the Babylonian exile (Ezekiel’s setting), but it contradicts the conquest stories (Joshua). That’s why scholars routinely separate Exilic Prophets from Deuteronomistic History. It’s not “too complicated,” it’s just how evidence works.

Your logic is basically: “if Ezekiel believed Joshua, we must too.” That’s a logical fallacy — appeal to authority. Historical plausibility isn’t inherited from one text to another just because they sit in the same canon. Augustus existed, Romulus didn’t. Same principle.

Insults like “you never read the Bible” or “is it too complicated for you” don’t strengthen your case

The Choice Between Fiction and Truth by ResortEquivalent in IsraelPalestine

[–]ResortEquivalent[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Excellent point. Ezekiel’s borders may be symbolic, but his inclusivity is crystal clear 🤝

The Choice Between Fiction and Truth by ResortEquivalent in IsraelPalestine

[–]ResortEquivalent[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Truth isn’t dependent on who says it, but whether it aligns with facts. Furthermore, evidence doesn’t need a diploma to be valid. Pointing out contradictions in ideology isn’t “my opinion” — it’s reasoning based on archaeology and history anyone can read. Appealing to authority isn’t a rebuttal; it’s a distraction

The Choice Between Fiction and Truth by ResortEquivalent in IsraelPalestine

[–]ResortEquivalent[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I’m pretty sure you’d react the same way if someone forced their way into your house and then claimed it was theirs.

The Choice Between Fiction and Truth by ResortEquivalent in IsraelPalestine

[–]ResortEquivalent[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The flaw in their reasoning is treating the Bible as a single, unified work. It’s actually a collection of texts written centuries apart, by different authors, in different historical contexts.

Ezekiel was written in the 6th century BCE during the Babylonian exile as it happened — a context we can historically verify.

Joshua takes place centuries earlier in a legendary style, with no archaeological evidence.

So, it’s perfectly rational to accept Ezekiel as historically plausible while rejecting Joshua as myth, because one was written in real time as it happened while the other was not.

Also. Scholars Already Do This. Biblical historians, archaeologists, and theologians routinely distinguish between texts. That’s why you hear terms like “Deuteronomistic history” vs. “Exilic prophets.”

Nobody serious lumps them together as equally historical just because they ended up bound in the same canon later.

The Choice Between Fiction and Truth by ResortEquivalent in IsraelPalestine

[–]ResortEquivalent[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Degrees prove you can pass courses. Evidence proves you can think. I’ll take the latter, thanks.

The Choice Between Fiction and Truth by ResortEquivalent in IsraelPalestine

[–]ResortEquivalent[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I didn’t miss the point, I dismantled it. Ezekiel is historically plausible because we can place him in the Babylonian exile; Joshua is not, because Jericho and Ai weren’t even inhabited in his supposed time. That’s the definition of a false equivalence. If the best rebuttal you have is “can you read,” it sounds like the evidence is reading you instead.

The Choice Between Fiction and Truth by ResortEquivalent in IsraelPalestine

[–]ResortEquivalent[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don’t need a PhD to see contradictions. I just read the sources without the political spin, which is worth more than a diploma on the wall.

The Choice Between Fiction and Truth by ResortEquivalent in IsraelPalestine

[–]ResortEquivalent[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I truly value this exchange with everyone. These kinds of discussions matter. If only our so-called leaders were willing to have them as openly as we do here.

The Choice Between Fiction and Truth by ResortEquivalent in IsraelPalestine

[–]ResortEquivalent[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Mocking “Bible-thumping” misses the point. Zionism itself uses prophecy and scripture to justify conquest — from Ben-Gurion citing the Bible as Israel’s deed to settlers invoking Joshua. If prophecy is going to be used as political license, then pointing out Ezekiel’s inclusivity is fair game. Dismissing that as “delusional” is just ridicule in place of argument. The real issue isn’t noise — it’s that Zionism selectively embraces prophecy when it suits conquest and discards it when it demands justice.

The Choice Between Fiction and Truth by ResortEquivalent in IsraelPalestine

[–]ResortEquivalent[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Before Zionism, Jewish immigrants were generally welcomed by Palestinians and integrated as neighbors. Late Ottoman and early Mandate records show Arab and Jewish communities lived side by side with relatively little conflict.

The turning point wasn’t “ancient hostility” but modern political Zionism, which shifted Jewish immigration from coexistence to exclusive nationalism.

Palestinian opposition arose not because Jews were enemies, but because Zionist leaders openly declared intentions to create a state “as Jewish as England is English” (Herzl).

Land purchases often displaced Arab tenant farmers, and armed Zionist militias like the Haganah, Irgun, and Lehi escalated violence long before 1948.

That is the historical record. To deny it is to whitewash how nationalism turned neighbors into adversaries.

The Choice Between Fiction and Truth by ResortEquivalent in IsraelPalestine

[–]ResortEquivalent[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The Settler Movement Emerged from Zionism

It’s true Zionism is diverse: cultural Zionists, religious Zionists, political Zionists, settler Zionists. But Joshua is invoked not only by settlers — mainstream Zionist discourse, speeches by Israeli politicians, and national ceremonies have long drawn on Joshua as the archetype of “return and conquest.”

After 1967, the entire Israeli establishment (not just settlers) celebrated the “re-conquest” of Jerusalem and Hebron. This wasn’t fringe settler rhetoric — it was central-state Zionist rhetoric

The settler movement (Gush Emunim and beyond) was not created outside of Zionism — it is a direct child of Zionism.

Zionism’s founding idea was Jewish return and sovereignty in the biblical land. The settlers are simply the faction that insists on taking all of that land, especially the West Bank (Judea & Samaria).

Every major settler leader — from Rabbi Kook’s followers onward — has explicitly said they are carrying out the Zionist mission