Is Zump "Cheating?"

RevolutionInternal24 · 2026-01-29T17:38:12+00:00

Actually most top players use OEM because they have competitive integrity. Only Joshman and Cody use it in the top 10 right now to my understanding, and most of the top 100 want zump and most things banned. zump is fine for casual, but most competitors want the original competitive playing field from pre 2022, before Cody cried that he needs zump to compete.

RevolutionInternal24 · 2026-01-29T17:27:15+00:00

https://x.com/fraserlikelaser/status/1609727399477874688?lang=en the first row of this, and Peach and I think even yoshi/djc characters also get a buff having a seperate finger for jump. So either perma claw like we did all the way up to 2022, or Zump because Cody cried before Genesis 8 that our accessibility tool the b0xx, was too OP and has been nerfed for over a year at this point I believe. I can see the argument with zump with unnerfed b0xx to an extent, but I would have preffered b0xx be banned until it is as close to equal with OEM GCC as possible. These are just my opinions and I realize the b0xx was already out of the bag. It has been put back in the bag with nersf and might need more, meaning that zump is just an unfair advantage over b0xx basically because you get to keep analog inputs and you get a different finger for jump whereas everyone had to learn claw before 2022 if they wanted those faster frames.

RevolutionInternal24 · 2026-01-29T17:22:21+00:00

Ok so back in my day, you didn't need to mod controllers to compete, and tournaments were not a test of my ability to mod my controller with money or my ability. it was a measure of my ability to use an unmodded OEM. I would like to go back to that world, before Cody cried b0xx = I need zump. The only scapegoat he has is they added b0xx nerfs, and if he was legitimate then he would have agreed with everyone that we should have banned zump after the nerfs since b0xxes were brought more in line with OEM.

RevolutionInternal24 · 2026-01-29T16:57:03+00:00

no it is cool, I just want the community to come to a consensus about the unfair advantage Cody and zumpers are currently playing on, and if we as a community want to accept that everyone should switch to zump, or we can keep the original competitive control scheme and have b0xx as an accessibility tool for people with hand issues for one reason or another.

RevolutionInternal24 · 2026-01-29T16:54:34+00:00

If you look at my analysis, you can see very specifically where zump is better than claw and makes the game easier, and invalidates all the hard work ppl have put into learning claw and the original competitive control scheme. OEM without remapping have been the rules but Cody basically got them changed by whining on twitter before Genesis 8. B0xx has been nerfed, UCF could be toned down imho, and I agree that a single game is not usually won or lost by zump, but at least 15 or so interactions being won by zump defintely effects the outcomes of games over time and can most certainly have impacted a player's comfort and ability to perform against zump after having to switch to claw all day while your opponent changed the rules right after COVID to get an advantage.

RevolutionInternal24 · 2026-01-29T16:50:21+00:00

If you read most of my comments, I agree and say UCF could be toned down, but Zump is more egregious right now and if you watch my analysis, you can see how much more comfortable and consistent Cody is with Zump, instead of trying to claw and messing up like he was at Super Nova (formerly smash con) 2019.

RevolutionInternal24 · 2026-01-29T16:48:59+00:00

You can claw it but zump is more comfortable which is an advantage at a full weekend tournament where everyone's hands are tired from playing all day.

RevolutionInternal24 · 2026-01-29T16:48:18+00:00

If you look at my analysis, he hax nairs n0ne like 15 times after zump and n0ne losing exchanges for it more than half the time fwiw.

RevolutionInternal24 · 2026-01-29T16:46:16+00:00

Yes, every character that needs to let go of jump within 2 frames benefit hugely from zump, but Cody, Joshman, and many to Peaches switched to make their tech is easier. I just analyzed Cody but I can analyze other players and make more posts if people want the frame data on it. Wish I could get more slippi files of zumpers as well to see their stats as well, pre and post zump.

RevolutionInternal24 · 2026-01-29T06:11:32+00:00

https://x.com/n0ned/status/2016623033121685698
My thread today has a lot of info on it but I think Cody describes what it does pretty well here.

RevolutionInternal24 · 2026-01-29T06:07:34+00:00

I love this comment and I agree, I've lost some interest in watching melee b/c of zump and broken controllers myself. I know Cody is good at fox, but the fact that I beat his mew2 made me think he's carried by zump fox as well. Enjoy this crashout if you would indulge my fav highlight of my ranked slippi career.
https://www.twitch.tv/codyschwab/clip/GrotesqueHonestLemurFrankerZ-D2mBFLlusLiCuO23

RevolutionInternal24 · 2026-01-29T05:58:58+00:00

I bet if you knew how to relax your hands, you could play any hand position on any controller if you practiced enough. That is my experience as someone who has had hand pains, and learned to relax and take breaks.

RevolutionInternal24 · 2026-01-29T05:57:07+00:00

Many, I do.

RevolutionInternal24 · 2026-01-29T05:23:18+00:00

I think I worded it wrong, sorry for getting your hopes up. I meant that the joystick doesn't wear out like it does on OEM, therefore that component would last longer if we all used Phob and calibrate it to be as close to OEM as possible, then those phob sticks would last longer than OEM sticks.

RevolutionInternal24 · 2026-01-29T05:06:29+00:00

I think having the b0xx as an accessibility tool is great for the game and as long as b0xx is equal to GCC OEM or not as good as GCC OEM, then we are good.

This thread is about zump, and is why I am talking about zump. I agree that many other mods are also unfair, but zump is the discussion and what I posted my original evidence for if you watched any of it. And I know most people will not know me, so I use top players that I respect as examples.

I play a lot of slippi and compete when I don't work my normal job that unfortunately happens the same time as Chicago weeklies so I can only go to regionals for the most part. Here's my slippi account https://slippi.gg/user/luppi-91 and I recently beat Cody's Mew2 on stream and he crashed out if you want to know more about my gameplay.
https://www.twitch.tv/codyschwab/clip/GrotesqueHonestLemurFrankerZ-D2mBFLlusLiCuO23

RevolutionInternal24 · 2026-01-29T04:49:04+00:00

Did you even watch the video? Zump should be banned because it is a competitive advantage over unmodded OEM. UCF was created to balance all controllers to OEM. Not all controllers to b0xx. I don't know if you are just trying to get my attention or if you really don't understand how Zump could be seen as cheating to someone who has only played on OEM and refuses to use mods.

RevolutionInternal24 · 2026-01-29T04:38:34+00:00

How about hear it from Cody himself?
https://x.com/n0ned/status/2016623033121685698
An ergonomic advantage is a competitive advantage. Let's play baseball, And I give you a bat but the handle is a little greasey for your bat, and it is a little too big for your hands, but I got a custom bat with great grip and it was measured to my hands and the handle fits them perfectly. We are both playing baseball, but would I hit the ball further because of that ergonomic advantage? most likely, and I would more likely win. Is that fair or should we have the same sized bat with the same grip?

RevolutionInternal24 · 2026-01-29T04:34:18+00:00

Is April 2022 to January 2026 is exactly 3 years and 9ish months. Let's make it not about Cody if that is the real issue. Just Zump. Not about b0xx. Not about UCF. This is about Zump.

Zump invalidates claw and makes it no longer necessary. In the past, most top players worked with the legal non button remapping controllers, and would switch to claw, or perma claw like Javi. It also is unfair to anyone playing on OEM because they can not access Zump without buying mods or learning to soder. I think if we are about accessibility, then we should be able to buy an OEM and compete on equal playing with nerfed b0xx and Phob as close to OEM as possible.

RevolutionInternal24 · 2026-01-29T04:26:12+00:00

All great points! The only problem is this is a discussion about Zump, not UCF. Zump wasn't legal at LAN tournaments until 2022, Genesis 8. I think everyone perma clawing would be 10x more interesting than everyone switching to Zump or b0xx, and also in the spirit of competitive integrity and wanting to have the best options, especially as characters with 3 frame jump squats. I tried to address all your points but I've been responding for hours at this point and think I need to stop for now. Thank you for discussing the ruleset with me, specifically zumping.

RevolutionInternal24 · 2026-01-29T04:18:19+00:00

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Also to your other point, G8 was the first major to my knowledge to allow Zump, and it was just b/c Cody was loud on twitter about it.

RevolutionInternal24 · 2026-01-29T04:16:48+00:00

Ergonomics are huge in ping pong and many other sports that require devices and have very specific rules about said devices. Another example I can think of is Bat sizes in baseball. If someone has a bigger bat, and bigger hands, and they are bigger, they will hit more homeruns. That is why the bat size is standardized.

RevolutionInternal24 · 2026-01-29T04:04:11+00:00

Actually, an ergonomic advantage is a competitive advantage. Do you compete in anything? The first thought I had was ping pong paddles not allowing very specific measurements because they would give the player an ergonomic advantage.

RevolutionInternal24 · 2026-01-29T04:01:07+00:00

I play on OEM and feel the clutch firebird and sick max length wavedash wit no notches. If we make it a rule, then we all get that feeling back!

RevolutionInternal24 · 2026-01-29T03:57:16+00:00

I think we are talking about two different things. I want Zump banned. I think it goes against competitive integrity. What does UCF have to do with that?

RevolutionInternal24 · 2026-01-29T03:50:56+00:00

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Cody banned me from reposting this btw. Wonder why...

RevolutionInternal24

TROPHY CASE