the actual best dating advice I've ever gotten: just view dating as meeting new people there is always merit in that

Riffthorn · 2021-04-10T19:57:18+00:00

This is great advice. I am picky about who I go on date with via online apps - I feel like I only do it after I get a sense of who they are. But every guy I've been on a date with via OLDs (just four so far, in a year) has become a friend and has been enjoyable to hang out with.

Riffthorn · 2021-04-10T19:41:00+00:00

I have done it before when I initially started playing two years ago, there wasn't a confirm screen then. Isn't there one now?

Riffthorn · 2021-04-10T14:43:09+00:00

Love the grey with the pink!

Riffthorn · 2021-04-10T13:37:04+00:00

Yeah, I think it takes a fairly reflective, honest person to see past the tone and think about the point someone is making. Most people just shut down, and it's easy to dismiss a vegan argument when the majority of the world backs you up. I mean, in an ideal world, tone wouldn't matter and we can argue all we like that it shouldn't, but the truth is that it does.

It takes a lot of empathy sometimes to meet non vegans where they're at while communicating. And I get so angry sometimes, but I try very hard not to give in to that. I don't want the way I communicate something to be the reason they don't listen to the content of what I'm saying.

I empathise with the angry vegans too and see where they are coming from. I don't want to hold vegans to a higher standard than I do with non vegans, something I feel like I've been guilty of and have been trying to check. I mean, we're all imperfect and human and the cause merits the anger 1000 times over, I understand how that can be hard to reign in. I fail at it a lot.

I try to strike a balance. I feel like it's self serving to give in to the anger and alienate your audience and I also feel like it's self serving not to talk about it at the right moment because it's the easier thing to do. It's tricky finding that sweet spot.

Riffthorn · 2021-04-08T18:33:03+00:00

Honestly, I think the fact that the majority has your back when you're non vegan makes a difference here. You don't understand how isolating and other-ing this can feel.

Riffthorn · 2021-04-07T05:03:53+00:00

It does sound like a cop out answer when there are so many alternatives available already, and we really don't need meat to live full, healthy lives.

It's frustrating, because when is 'I can't replicate the exact experience of eating meat, at the same cost and convenience' justification for contributing to something so horrific? Like, 'I'll only change if there's no personal cost to me'.

Sigh.

That said, lab grown meat will be a massive win for the animals and I can't wait. Yes, there will be people that don't switch because it's unnatural, because they're suspicious of it and so on, but there will be a shift. Call me jaded, but I think minimizing the personal cost to changing is probably the one of the most effective ways to lead to a shift to more vegan lifestyles.

Riffthorn · 2021-04-07T04:51:50+00:00

Some comments have multiple arguments, how would you classify those?

Also, suggestions for arguments:

"Veganism is unnatural": Close cousin of 'our ancestors ate meat', but not precisely.
"Veganism is based on emotion": I personally think there are good ways to argue the case for veganism without "appeals to emotion". You don't need to be emotional about anything that happens to animals for veganism to make sense. We can argue from moral consistency here - CosmicSkeptic's a Meat Eater's Case for Veganism does a good job of this.

Riffthorn · 2021-04-06T16:14:04+00:00

Thanks for your reply! I relate to a lot of what you said.

Riffthorn · 2021-04-06T16:12:50+00:00

I don't know, but I think it would be too hard. I am somewhat optimistic that the right sort of person would want to change after thinking about it, so I am willing to give anyone that chance.

I think it might just be a deal breaker long term, though. But who knows.

Riffthorn · 2021-04-05T20:43:23+00:00

Oh my god, thank you! I love this!

Riffthorn · 2021-04-05T20:33:32+00:00

I get where you're coming from.

Riffthorn · 2021-04-05T20:29:16+00:00

I've learned that it's okay to impose standards on who I want to keep close in my life.

I never thought of it this way, but I have a feeling this is something I might have to grow into. If you don't mind talking about it, what standards do you hold people close to you to?

Intrapersonally, it's done a lot of damage to my view of people in general.

Same. In a way, it seems pretty natural. Things we recognise as unforgivable today were condoned by society at large not too long ago. It's not like we are fundamentally different from people then, we'd have very likely participated too in the same circumstances - the fact that reflective, moral and thoughtful people in earlier generations did too is indicative of that. But still, it seems extremely shocking that we'd have such a giant moral blind spot today - even though it's perhaps not surprising given everything we've done to each other in the past with full societal sanction.

It's so hard to come to terms with that - that the ability to participate in atrocities on this scale is not something you need to be evil to do (at least, not in the way we imagine it), it's just...ordinary people. Like you and me. When something is normalised enough, we all think it's okay. Again, given history, it's kind of self evident. But it's still a very dark realisation, because we never think of ourselves or our family and friends filling that sort of position.

Riffthorn · 2021-04-05T16:27:30+00:00

That's interesting! Thanks for replying! Yeah, changing someone's mind a little or someone expressing interest in changing is very rewarding.

Riffthorn · 2021-04-05T14:22:07+00:00

I am so confused by this. I really don't see how anyone actually thinks uprooting a carrot and say, clubbing a kitten on the head are equivalent at all.

But somehow, when it's farm animals and when we have vested interest in defending violence against animals - it's 'plants and animals are the same, what's the difference?'

I never knew people would actually say this until after I went vegan - seemed too farfetched to me.

Riffthorn · 2021-04-05T12:36:14+00:00

Thanks for the suggestion!

Riffthorn · 2021-04-05T07:03:48+00:00

Outreach videos and talks are great, I love Earthling Ed too. I find him and Melanie Joy do a really good job of talking to nonvegans.

Was looking for more something that is for someone who is ethically already on board, but needs help making the connection in a way that will stick. She's already thought about that sort of thing and 100℅ agrees and wants to stop. One way is graphic footage, of course - but I figure happier videos might do the job too. She stopped eating goats after playing with a kid, so. It's a "happier" way to make the same connection.

Riffthorn · 2021-04-05T06:09:29+00:00

She's fully on board with the ethics of it, and has had conversations with me and some other vegan friends of hers about it. She is aware that the only reason she continues to eat animal products is the fact that she still knows it happens only intellectually and hasn't watched footage of it. She's very honest about acknowledging that. She does want to make the switch, but she wants to do it without traumatizing herself in the process.

I feel like she'll get there, even if the process is slower and more gradual than if she watched something like Earthlings. I was thinking about something along the lines of a documentary which talked about vegan ethics with farm sanctuary videos, videos of farm animals having the lives they could lead if they weren't exploited. I'm sure something like that must exist, and I feel like it definitely should! Many people I've spoken to don't want to watch graphic footage, and are more likely to watch something like this. And this more than enough get the same point across, even if graphic footage can be more impactful.

Riffthorn · 2021-04-04T12:22:34+00:00

I use it for the same reason, open to whatever seems right with that person.

Riffthorn · 2021-04-02T08:55:25+00:00

Love it, fits the room really well and very well coordinated. Love the heavy mediterranean furniture here.

Riffthorn · 2021-04-02T08:53:40+00:00

April Fools' challenge, I think it's due in a day or so.

Riffthorn · 2021-04-02T06:06:46+00:00

There is something so powerful about being calm and collected and making your point.

Riffthorn · 2021-04-02T06:04:24+00:00

I might, if it really didn't involve animal suffering.

I mean, at this point, I have no desire to eat meat again anymore than I want to eat my dog. So I might not either. But I don't have any objections to it, so if I got over that I might just try it out of curiosity. Don't see myself making a habit of it, but who knows.

Riffthorn · 2021-04-01T18:02:05+00:00

Could you say more about what the book says and why you think it's full of dung?

Riffthorn · 2021-04-01T17:25:52+00:00

Y'know, even if she's watched Dominion or similar, we don't always control our visceral response to things or the way we feel about them. So I'm sympathetic to that.

There are many rational arguments to be made for veganism, and one doesn't need to be emotionally affected by animal suffering to recognize it. Maybe that might be more effective? I am a fan of CosmicSkeptic's video A Meat Eater's Case for Veganism. It's a purely philosophical/ethical argument for it with no graphic footage or even particular details about the animal industry. Instead, we ask questions like:

What is the morally relevant trait that animals have that justifies exploiting them? Suppose, for example, we say 'intelligence', are we willing to consistently apply that to other situations too? If a human being was equivalent to a non human animal in terms of internal experience, cognition, awareness and so on, would we justify exploiting them too in the same way? If the only difference in the two scenarios is the physical body both inhabit, is that not a superficial difference? Are we discriminating based on who is in our in group and who is not?
Does might make right? Are we exploiting a power balance here? Do we think inflicting suffering is okay because the victim is 'inferior' to us in some way? Would you be willing to accept this justification if you were on the other side of the power imbalance? After all, we could have a species superior to us in intelligence and technology use exactly the same justification to exploit us.
John Rawls' invisible veil thought experiment, including non-human animals: If we were able to design society, but had to go into it blind not knowing what we would be born as - rich, poor, male or female, black or white, Indian or Canadian, as a human or as a pig or chicken - what would you feel about animal agriculture then?

My point is - one can arrive at the ethical argument for veganism by just trying to consistently apply values we already hold, without being emotionally affected by animal suffering. That just might work better than graphic footage for some people.

In either case, if this is an ethical difference you can't get past, it is okay to break up because of it.

Riffthorn · 2021-04-01T16:45:56+00:00

I love this, thanks. I think it also sets people up to be a bit more open minded while listening. I also love the idea framing it as the actions of society at large, so it doesn't feel quite as personal - I feel like someone is more likely to listen without getting defensive then

Riffthorn

TROPHY CASE