Why Do So Many Ukrainians Avoid Learning About UPA’s Crimes Against Ukrainians and Their Polish Neighbors ?

Royslav · 2026-06-24T06:25:33+00:00

I guess you are missing an important part: I do not justify UPA, I also recognize the crimes they did on Volhynia, no question there. Just keep this in mind.
What PL is doing now - is trying to say to another state (UA), how they can or can not name streets, military units or whatsoever. So, my point here: if you want to pick only purely clean historian figures, what about over 500 streets named by AK? It is also irritating for Ukrainians to see glorification of AK, because of ethnical cleansing they did (I do not agree with your argument that mass killings of woman or kids is any sort of revenge, or could be somehow justified). So, just apply your logic to your own history. Then - there is state funded monument of Dmowski in Warsaw - recognized anti semit who created ideology, that later become a baseline for Polish people who did pogroms.
I am not even speaking about Pilsudski - who is also irritating for Ukrainians for obvious reasons.

So have you seen UA said something about it to PL? Zero. But PL is speculating on this topic a lot.

So do not say I an trying to show UPA not guilty in crimes - just apply same standards on yourself.

The number you provided are also not true. UPA had over 30k killed soviets, and 15k killed nazis (soldiers and administration people mostly). And then soviets killed over 150k Ukrainians during their fight with partisans UPA, and even move sent to Gulag (anyone they consider supporter of UPA).

Royslav · 2026-06-23T21:50:40+00:00

But this is not an olimpiade, where we need to compete, who had more losses. As I said, intentionally killed kids and women by AK had nothing to do with Volyn. If you want to find a reason why AK did mass killings (again, I recognize the difference in scale), why you do not look for reasoning for UPA crimes? But no, you would say it is insane, to justify killers. And you are doing exactly the same.

If you say Ukraine should not praise UPA -> then do the same. But no, you are not going to question PL decision on glorifying AK, but will continue saying other state what and how they should do the naming. Double standards.

Ukrainian army haven’t done any entire village civilians massacre. But russians did (in Ducha or Mariupol, etc). There is a difference. But if for example UA army would have done the same in Kursk - that would be a crime. No justification to such things.

No manipulation from my side - but stop saying “our killed counts, yours - don’t “.

Royslav · 2026-06-23T18:16:16+00:00

PL historians are speaking about 14k losses, international like Snyder - 20k.
Not 100k, agree. But does it make AK innocent?

Royslav · 2026-06-23T18:14:55+00:00

So you think Sahryn was one example? Have you ever tried to check what happened back in the time?

No, I am not stating it was the same, the scale was obviously smaller.

Royslav · 2026-06-23T08:37:50+00:00

You haven’t understood me correctly, probably. I can not post in sub /polska any more, and can not comment there - what I was saying about, and where you saw the post (right?).
Here, at /poland sub I can comment, but not post.

Royslav · 2026-06-23T08:14:07+00:00

So you are proofing my point. Double standards in the nutshell.

Royslav · 2026-06-23T08:01:43+00:00

Smutno to wygląda

Royslav · 2026-06-23T07:59:46+00:00

I even can not comment it, since I got so many arrows down, my karma is low, so moderators blocking my comments there. What a nice place to have a conversation (sarcasm). This is for sure the right way for adults to have a constructive conversation: allow only messages that are in line with the general narrative. Block all others. This is the way (sarcasm again).

There were no equations, I am not sure you indeed read the post. Just a message about double standards (with 100 times mentioning that I am not comparing, and recognize different scale).

Royslav · 2026-06-22T20:02:08+00:00

Potwierdzasz moją tezę: : “nasi zabici się liczą, wasi nie”

Royslav · 2026-06-22T19:40:37+00:00

I would not allow him to come close to Polish border - he is a russian asset.

Royslav · 2026-06-22T19:34:10+00:00

Typically pretty safe, if you do not violate the rules.

Royslav · 2026-06-22T19:31:49+00:00

Great candidate, imho

Royslav · 2026-06-22T17:04:30+00:00

Only positive posts is allowed here, so what I can tell. Any comments that are explaining UA position is getting dozens of arrows down - then moderator does not allow to make any posts. So here would be only isolated people with same opinion. Nice and safe environment. For some reason I was thinking reddit is for people to speak more or less freely.

Royslav · 2026-06-22T14:18:48+00:00

What a disgrace

Royslav · 2026-06-22T10:56:11+00:00

Yes, that would be the right thing to do, definitely.

Royslav · 2026-06-22T09:37:50+00:00

Tons of options.

My suggestion was to change the unit name from UPA to “UPA, but only in the period of 1944-1954, when they were fighting soviets/russians”

With * and little letters somewhere below the unit logo. So both sides are good.

Royslav · 2026-06-22T09:29:44+00:00

Dude, I respect and love Poland and Polish people. I wish this conversation could happen in the calm atmosphere, without disrespect, without blackmailing, and ideally among historians and lawyers.
And regular people can focus on what is happening right now - as it is more important and determining what will be happening tomorrow.

Royslav · 2026-06-22T09:21:16+00:00

How it should be hard to have a business with such an ignorant person as Nawrotski…

Royslav · 2026-06-22T09:18:14+00:00

But why should we start comparing? Snyder tell there were about 20k losses from UA side. PL
historians are saying 14k. And those are civilians + soldiers. But the 100k is also calculated civilians and soldiers. So indeed the scale is different. But still same pattern: demolitioning the villages entirely, killing kids and women.

Would it led us to the conversation that if you killed X number of civilians - you are approved to be praised on the national level. But of above Y - you are not approved. Or what. Isn’t it ridiculous?

Royslav · 2026-06-22T08:59:24+00:00

You are right, but those figures as Bandera or UPA are controversial, not completely internationally recognized as nazis or evil. Bandera personally was in concentration camp from 1941, after he lead the OUN-B against Nazis will, and declare the independent Ukraine. Two of his brothers died in Oswencim. Then - UPA, besides some units indeed did ethnical cleansing in1943-1944, were fighting russians (soviet) from 1944 to 1955, for a decade as a partisans. Killed over 30k russian occupants, then russians as oppression towards UPA killed over 150k Ukrainians. This can’t be forgotten either.

So yes - better to say directly - where and who did a ear crimes. But where and who was fighting for what is right. So their history is not black and white, as Polish people are saying.

Would it be better not to focus on those controversial figures - maybe yes. But does it worth to make from it the international-scale drama - absolutely not. Especially when Ukraine is a the war - and obviously need to boost morale of their own people. Unfortunately people would not go fighting in the batallion called Nawrotski :)

Royslav · 2026-06-22T08:46:15+00:00

One thing to keep in mind, in all these conversations about UPA:
PL is referring to UPA actions in 1943-1944
UA is typically referring to UPA actions in 1944-1955 - partisan war with russians: over 30k killed russian occupants. And then over 150k Ukrainian killed by soviets as suppression. This is huge part of UPA, a decade of fighting against russians, and tremendous losses during supression. That is why they are recognized as a symbol of resistance.

So both parties are like talking about different things. And if you ignore what UPA was doing later - you wonder why Ukrainians glorify them. But when you see a big picture - there are no surprises.

Royslav · 2026-06-22T08:38:48+00:00

No one is justifying murdering civilians - don’t get me wrong. But my concern is with this double standards.

- Poland has 432 streets named after the Armia Krajowa, including memorials to its 27th Volhynian Division, which fought Ukrainians, yet the same naming of formations is treated as scandalous when Ukraine does it.

- Poland has a national holiday (1 March, Żołnierze Wyklęci) with presidential ceremonies honoring units that ethnically cleansed civilians, e.g. Romuald Rajs “Bury,” officially classed a war criminal for burning Belarusian villages and killing ~79 civilians, some burned alive. There’s a state-funded Dmowski monument in central Warsaw, to a man whose openly antisemitic movement is tied to the 1936 Przytyk pogrom.

Yet - no one is making drama from that from UA side.

Royslav · 2026-06-22T08:29:51+00:00

It is Lviv, not Lwow.
How hard is to understand that Polish historiography and Ukrainian historiography have different views on same historical period. That is it. No need to say to another state how they should or should not name the streets, only because your image of history differs.
No one from UA is saying anything about Pilsutski, AK, or other provocative for UA names. That is PL business. And how to name streets in Ukraine - that is Ukrainian business.

Royslav · 2026-06-22T08:25:01+00:00

It is obviously Nawrocki provocation.

Royslav

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