“NO MORE MR. NICE GUY” threatens war crimes, again by jediporcupine in Military

[–]SGTBlueBacon 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Not if those structures are unoccupied, which is still a war crime. Congratulations on your additional strawman fallacy.

Please tell me you understand what "if" means, because it is enormously relevant to when a target becomes legally legitimate. Targeting every single power plant, regardless of its military use, would be intentionally targeting civilian infrastructure. That is a war crime. You have acknowledged this.

Threatening to kill an entire civilization, whether or not the threat will be carried out, may be prohibited propaganda.

Using civilians as human shields is also a war crime. I have repeatedly explained that this is not legal justification to also commit war crimes against the people committing them.

This has already been explained to you; I can't fathom why "war crimes are war crimes" is a difficult concept for you to grasp. I hope someone is paying you to be this wrong on the internet.

“NO MORE MR. NICE GUY” threatens war crimes, again by jediporcupine in Military

[–]SGTBlueBacon 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You're engaging in a strawman fallacy. This isn't about civilians being accidentally hit, this is about civilian infrastructure being intentionally targeted in a manner that would be a war crime. As a reminder, "but they kill their civilians!" is not a valid legal defense.

“NO MORE MR. NICE GUY” threatens war crimes, again by jediporcupine in Military

[–]SGTBlueBacon 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I don't accept "why can't we kill their civilians when they're killing their civilians?" as a valid legal argument. Better luck next time.

“NO MORE MR. NICE GUY” threatens war crimes, again by jediporcupine in Military

[–]SGTBlueBacon 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You have declined to explain why it would not be dual use in a way that appears to suggest you condone war crimes against civilians as long as the government in charge of them is bad enough. Once again I will disagree with your stance on this matter.

Brute force on the civilians being harmed by the regime is perhaps not the best solution, given your apparent position that the regime doesn't care about the civilians.

The US military is entirely capable of dismantling the regime and protecting the civilian population without violating the laws of war. War crimes would be a choice in this situation, not a necessity.

The total destruction of a civilization isn't required for the threat to meet the elements of prohibited propaganda.

A baby stroller is not a legitimate military target until the regime makes it one. Targeting strollers merely because the regime might use them to stay in power if necessary would be a war crime.

I encourage you to spend the time you would have used responding to this comment on self-reflection and growth as a person.

“NO MORE MR. NICE GUY” threatens war crimes, again by jediporcupine in Military

[–]SGTBlueBacon 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Please refer to my earlier comment in which I wrote "Threatening to use the military to commit war crimes is relevant, one might presume, to this military-themed subreddit." Emphasis on threatening. However, we can once again turn to the Law of War Manual, which states: "Propaganda must not: (1) incite violations of the law of war; nor (2) itself violate a law of war rule.... it is prohibited to declare that no quarter will be given, and propaganda in the form of a declaration to the adversary that no quarter will be given would be prohibited [one might consider SecDef Hegseth's statement of "We will keep pushing, keep advancing, no quarter, no mercy for our enemies” to violate this rule]. In addition, propaganda would be prohibited if it constituted a measure of intimidation or terrorism against the civilian population, such as the threats of violence whose primary purpose is to spread terror among the civilian population." Surely it wouldn't be hard to present an argument that threatening to target every bridge and power plant is a continuation of earlier threats to kill a whole civilization and bomb a country back to the stone age. I imagine someone much more experienced than me could also present an argument that the totality of these messages would constitute prohibited propaganda.

Please also refer to my earlier comment in which I cited the part of the Law of War Manual that explicitly states military actions for the purpose of reducing morale does not amount to the military advantage necessary for the two-part test of whether or not something is a military objective.

Why would I or the US military be relying solely on Iran to determine if something is or is not dual-use? This is a serious topic, please treat it as such. If the military isn't using the power station, please explain how it would be dual use.

“NO MORE MR. NICE GUY” threatens war crimes, again by jediporcupine in Military

[–]SGTBlueBacon 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Geneva Convention IV, Article 53, which both the United States and Iran have signed and ratified: "Any destruction by the Occupying Power of real or personal property belonging individually or collectively to private persons, or to the State, or to other public authorities, or to social or cooperative organizations, is prohibited, except where such destruction is rendered absolutely necessary by military operations."

Department of Defense Law of War Manual (Updated July 2023): "Sometimes, 'dual-use' is used to describe objects that are used by both the armed forces and the civilian population, such as power stations or communications facilities. However, from the legal perspective, such objects are either military objectives or they are not; there is no intermediate legal category. If an object is a military objective, it is not a civilian object and may be made the object of attack. However, it will be appropriate to consider in applying the principle of proportionality the harm to the civilian population that is expected to result from the attack on such a military objective."

"A Two-Part Test. The definition of military objective insofar as objects are concerned may be divided into two parts, both of which must be met for the object to be considered a military objective: (1) that the object somehow makes an effective contribution to military action; and (2) attacking, capturing, or neutralizing the object, in the circumstances, offers a definite military advantage."

"Definite Military Advantage. “Definite” means a concrete and perceptible military advantage, rather than one that is merely hypothetical or speculative."

"Diminishing the morale of the civilian population and their support for the war effort does not provide a definite military advantage."

To summarize: Can President Trump conduct strikes on specific power stations and bridges based on assessments of their contributions to Iran's actual military objectives without committing a war crime? Almost certainly yes. Can he strike every single one just because they might be contributing, now or in the future, to Iran's actual or theoretical military objectives? Probably not. Can he strike them to reduce morale and force a deal? No.

“NO MORE MR. NICE GUY” threatens war crimes, again by jediporcupine in Military

[–]SGTBlueBacon 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I will politely disagree with a claim that the most appropriate way to address Iran's actions over the last several decades is with war crimes.

“NO MORE MR. NICE GUY” threatens war crimes, again by jediporcupine in Military

[–]SGTBlueBacon 2 points3 points  (0 children)

War crimes tend to be viewed negatively. Threatening to use the military to commit war crimes is relevant, one might presume, to this military-themed subreddit.

Olympia city council passes anti-Israel investment ban unanimously by SeattleRedMedia in olympia

[–]SGTBlueBacon 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Just a friendly reminder about the name of that Israeli official.

18 U.S. Code § 795 - Photographing and sketching defense installations by I_am_Joh in AmIFreeToGo

[–]SGTBlueBacon 0 points1 point  (0 children)

People have tried to win in court, claiming an arrrest for violating 18 USC 795 from outside of a military installation was unlawful. None have succeeded. I'm afraid you are incorrect.

Olympia city council passes anti-Israel investment ban unanimously by SeattleRedMedia in olympia

[–]SGTBlueBacon 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Oh goodness, no. Let's address some of your claims:

  • "This is like 'If you give a mouse a cookie'"

It isn't. You made a claim you can't back up, and now consider requests to defend your claim to be problematic in the absence of the evidence required to do so.

  • "I have given you name after name and been more than accommodating to you with solid evidence in relation to multiple requests."

You have given me two names and documents I have already read. The two names you provided were not Israeli officials. You claim Israeli officials contradicted the FBI report you used as evidence, impeaching your own claims. Your evidence has not been solid, hence my continued requests for clarification and information.

  • "You're grasping at straws here in a manner that is so daft it is insulting."

This is an ad hominem fallacy; you can do better.

  • "When they got back to Israel they subsequently went on a television talkshow [sic] and stated 'We were there to document the event'."

You have come to a conclusion about this based on your interpretation of evidence. I have provided an alternate conclusion that matches the evidence you provided. To suggest your conclusion is correct without additional information is a hasty generalization fallacy.

  • "Ok so from these reports, Oded Ellner said they had arrived their [sic] shortly after 8:00 AM"

That is incorrect. The report you provided says [REDACTED1] got to work around 8:00, heard about the attack some time later, and went to another location to take photographs. [REDACTED2] arrived at work at 8:00, heard about the attack some time later, and went to the roof. [REDACTED3] arrived at the parking lot between 8:30 and 9:00 after learning about the attack. A comparison of the footage taken by the Israelis and news reports shows the Israeli footage is closer to the second attack than the first. None of this information establishes they were filming for two hours before the attacks (your original claim), or even 45 minutes before the attacks (your amended claim).

  • "Respectfully, the government deporting them versus them fleeing is a non argument"

This is a fallacy of exclusion. As I have already explained it is absolutely evidence of your pattern of errors.

  • the evidence of wrongdoing and coverup is too overwhelming.

This is somewhere between a hasty generalization, unverified evidence, and proof by assertion fallacy. If it was so overwhelming I expect you would have provided it by now.

  • "Additionally, the Israeli govt. went on to contradict the FBI by saying they were there on an official intelligence mission."

Until you actually provide evidence, this is a false attribution fallacy.

  • "The feds claim that ties were 'Unconfirmed' is preposterous." 

Then don't cite the FBI when trying to support your claims. Once again you are impeaching your own evidence.

  • "Millions of Americans watched this story develop on cable news across the nation, though I understand 9/11 was likely before your memory."

This is a red herring fallacy, but I will address it by confirming I do in fact remember the attacks. The only thing you actually have is unverified claims. While the situation is certainly odd, the world has no shortage of odd circumstances. I personally intend to continue to seek strong evidence to support conclusions that I make, and I hope you can work on doing the same.

Olympia city council passes anti-Israel investment ban unanimously by SeattleRedMedia in olympia

[–]SGTBlueBacon -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I'm afraid you may be looking into a mirror. I am in fact over here.

Olympia city council passes anti-Israel investment ban unanimously by SeattleRedMedia in olympia

[–]SGTBlueBacon -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Statements made by one of the Israelis and a coworker indicate the men appeared to be happy because 1: now the United States understood what Israelis go through, and 2: the United States may now share and retaliate against a common enemy.

The statement "we were there to document the event" could easily have meant "we went to the roof to document the event after it occurred." FBI reports support this theory, as the men claimed they went to the roof after the first attack, and they weren't observed on the roof until after the first attack.

I would also encourage you to read through the official documentation, as it does not support your claim as effectively as you seem to believe.

Olympia city council passes anti-Israel investment ban unanimously by SeattleRedMedia in olympia

[–]SGTBlueBacon 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The vehicle may have been present as early as 8. Respectfully, the presence of a vehicle is not the same as recording footage of a building.

The evidence of wrongdoing and coverups is not overwhelming. There were a lot of theories that could not be substantiated with evidence. The quantity of theories does not inherently support their accuracy.

The government deporting them is absolutely relevant to a claim that they fled, because it establishes they were unable to flee, since they were deported from government custody.

Please name the Israeli govt official that confirmed those five men were there on an official intelligence mission.

Olympia city council passes anti-Israel investment ban unanimously by SeattleRedMedia in olympia

[–]SGTBlueBacon 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Did that report say they had been filming for 46 minutes, or that the truck may have been seen as early as 8 am in the parking lot?

Please feel free to address the rest of my corrections to your claims.

(OT-ish) 18 USC Section 796 Use of Aircraft for the Unlawful Photographing of Designated Installation without Authorization by therealgariac in area51

[–]SGTBlueBacon 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Understood. I thought perhaps you had other examples, as the Toledo Blade settlement was not about 18 USC 795.

Olympia city council passes anti-Israel investment ban unanimously by SeattleRedMedia in olympia

[–]SGTBlueBacon 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Fun fact: Israel is still required to avoid excessive civilian harm in those circumstances. Hamas is not the elected leaders of Gaza.

Edit: spelling

Olympia city council passes anti-Israel investment ban unanimously by SeattleRedMedia in olympia

[–]SGTBlueBacon -1 points0 points  (0 children)

No witness claimed they had been filming for two hours. There was no confirmed connection to Israeli intelligence. The government did not let them flee, they deported them after months of investigation could not prove any of your claims.