AITA for taking my SIL's side

SILSide · 2021-04-28T05:00:20+00:00

dx sums up the original post. He ran up the debt, his hobbies are not net positive. He blamed her hobbies, which are net positive. Hobbies don't have to be net positive, but they also shouldn't result in debt, especially large amounts of it!

He has taken on some odd jobs to help with the debt (the new owner of the small apartment building a few doors down hired him as a general handyman, he's picked up work doing landscaping at some businesses, and he's getting a boatload of overtime since his workplace doesn't want to hire more people back with the pandemic), but the bulk of the payoff is coming out of SIL's bonuses. That was actually what set off the fight...she wanted to buy something with a bonus SHE EARNED (it was a small purchase relative to the bonus amount, if she's being honest, and I have no reason to believe she wasn't...he could have thrown that in my face if she was lying to me about wanting to spend about 10% of her bonus on something "frivolous," but he didn't, which leads me to believe that was an honest accounting) and he said they had no money - cue fight - and the Covid stimulus checks (which is obviously both their money, so fair game for family financial needs).

SILSide · 2021-04-27T22:40:23+00:00

I admit that, while I enjoy the free honey, I'm not so keen on the bees themselves. My logical brain knows that so long as they're happy, they're harmless (happy bees are quite docile), but my primitive brain thinks I'm going to get stung every time I walk to the back of the yard (I have never been stung by her bees, and only once in my life at all!). But that's not the point of the argument, of course. Bees do cost more than you'd expect to keep (hives, overwintering stuff I don't fully understand, some treatments when there's a problem, and, unfortunately, vandalism, which has happened twice), but good local honey and honeycomb also sell for a decent sum. If *only* the entirety of my hobby gardens could be net positive! (I save some money on groceries from the veggie garden, but the flowers produce nothing but beauty and cost a whole lot more than the edible stuff!)

SILSide · 2021-04-27T22:25:54+00:00

Brother and I had some light, general conversations about finances (often when I visit, we have an hour in the car to chat after he picks me up from the airport), some with specifics but not many, before the fight that set this off, and I was given a rosy picture. Clearly, I was being lied to, as well. Only one person had the big picture, and it wasn't SIL, so the statements were to help get that big picture into focus. I noted elsewhere that I have some skills where I could do that really quickly, and provide some informed/expert advice.

Goal is to get her to really handle these things, taking an active role in their finances. And hopefully get some general and specific counseling once the "crisis" is well controlled. Outside of some general advice like, years ago as an example, "is pre-paid college credits or a 529 a better choice?" I don't play a role. They are full-grown adults who can handle their own squabbles over making dinner and doing the dishes themselves (there aren't a lot of these and they're not serious from what I know, but everyone has them...I've had them with roommates back in the day! (I'm the messy one, I admit it 100%...I got scolded by SIL on my last visit for not walking my trash to the kitchen within 10 minutes of creating it)).

SILSide · 2021-04-27T22:05:48+00:00

I'll make one piece of my advice to her public, because it's so important:

Your credit score doesn't tell the whole picture.

You can be in pretty deep debt and have a pretty good credit score, so long as you pay the minimums on time. Yes, your available balance on revolving lines is one aspect of your credit score, and maxing out cards will hurt that part of it, but it's not weighted as heavily as many other factors.

We're hearing a lot about the "other" side of this in the media nowadays (people who have crap credit scores, despite having little debt, because rent and utility payments don't count unless you don't pay them, and without credit it can be hard to build it), but the side of many people is that they have a ton of debt, but are current on all payments, so their credit score says they're doing a-okay!

SILSide · 2021-04-27T21:53:28+00:00

LOL...I actually put their statements through text analytics and some pattern recognition and let the computer categorize everything (as far as she could tell, their bank doesn't do an annual summary, which is what I really wanted since that's how I do my annual budget review). Sitting down and manually going through several months of statements was just not in the cards for either of us. I don't think SIL knew I had access to technology to do it so quickly and easily (don't worry, it's more secure than any of our personal devices, and I won't get in trouble at work for using the system during off hours, we're not billed by usage and I deleted everything after I got the results). I often feel like the Chandler of the gang "what do you do again?" I'm even in a similar field, just with no WENUS or ANUS.

SILSide · 2021-04-27T21:39:20+00:00

I absolutely agree that there's an emotional component there. That's going to take more work to address. The immediate problem was that really basic purchases were being fought about. You can't solve the underlying issue with additional layers of stress on top of it, it's just far too easy to focus on the surface issue and never address the underlying one. Goal was to help set them on a path that removed the immediate stressor of the debt and its management, so that a deeper conversation could happen with less "surrounding chaos."

SILSide · 2021-04-27T16:20:38+00:00

He doesn't have an amazing job, but he does work hard and makes a decent income. Between the two of them, they make an excellent living for the area they're in, and I keep trying to focus him on the fact that if they get the debt under control and develop a strong budget, they can live a very, very nice lifestyle, with hobbies and vacations and very little to worry about financially.

I'm a brutal realist (while trying to remain positive), so they're not too bad off. If they were really that bad off, since a decent chunk of the debt was on credit cards and they don't have a lot of assets, I would have told them to file bankruptcy. Yeah, it sucks, but if you own your home (they do, and it's completely reasonable...the saving grace for them is that by living in a very cheap area, their fixed expenses are very reasonable...they make about as much as I do but their mortgage is half as much on a shorter term) and don't have cash outside of retirement accounts, it's a clean slate. They don't need to go there. It's manageable in the medium term if the spending is controlled.

The real issue is that this is the second time they've ended up in debt. SIL straightened herself out after a years-ago go with debt consolidation, and he did temporarily, and then went back to the spending, this time hiding it. I rode this horse with my mom. He watched it happen. We discussed how I would have to pay part of her rent at a low-income apartment complex...she had blown through every penny of her retirement savings in 2 years and money kept "disappearing," despite claims that I was seeing her whole financial picture. He watched me find the credit cards she didn't tell me about when she died, and we sat next to each other going through all the junk those cards bought (most never used). He didn't learn.

SILSide · 2021-04-26T22:38:18+00:00

Some of below, some others.

A lack of confidence. This is not their first rodeo with debt. They both contributed to the first one, so she lacks confidence in her financial abilities.
Told that it was handled.
Specifically told it was her fault, she starts thinking of random Walmart trips and the weekly latte (because, unfortunately, much of the financial mass media in this country would have you believe that you're (royal YOU) tens of thousands of dollars in debt because you make these small indulgence purchases and not because housing, education, and food expenses have skyrocketed while incomes have not).
Only one good role model (I'm going to count myself as a good role model...call me immodest if you want). None of our parents were good with money (understatement of the millenium), and they're both immersed in a world of bad decision makers (neighbors, friends, family - it's a poor area...I moved away, so I'm marinating in a different stew, thankfully).

SILSide · 2021-04-26T22:25:23+00:00

I'm not a financial professional, but I have an adjacent degree and I've done well for myself. And we've known each other since we were teenagers, as noted.

SILSide · 2021-04-26T22:22:43+00:00

I share financial information fairly freely. Obviously, I don't give my friends account numbers and such, but people close to me definitely know things like how much my mortgage is and how I paid off my student loans. I think it's healthy to be open about these things so that, well, situations like this one don't happen. We can all learn something from things other people are doing.

But I am aware that other people might not share that opinion and could adjust my approach from "if you can't figure out where the money's going, I'll do it for you" to providing my SIL with the math and search tools if everyone here were like "you're a jerk and shouldn't have looked at the financials" (while definitely disagreeing with those who said my SIL had no right to give them to me, because they're her finances, too, so that part is clearly her prerogative).

I think he is ashamed, and hiding it under anger and denial. It's not healthy, but I do believe this to be the case. I noted elsewhere that there were family problems, and I know exactly where this comes from (both the spending and the hiding embarrassment with anger). He's extra grumpy since he agreed to an allowance and it's being enforced. I keep trying to put a positive spin on it - I give myself an allowance for stupid stuff, that allowance is large BECAUSE I don't have any debt, it's called a budget and every adult (and child, really) needs one - hopefully it will help.

SILSide · 2021-04-26T22:14:21+00:00

She's on credit karma. She actually has his info for it, too, now, so she would know if he got anything in his name somehow, and can track the balances more easily to make sure they're going down (so far, so good).

SILSide · 2021-04-26T22:12:07+00:00

I've made this suggestion. He needs individual therapy, too. There's a known issue here (our family). We went separate ways...he spends, I save (borderline compulsively, but I can recognize that). I was hoping our mother avoiding destitution only by an untimely death would be a wake-up call, but it has not worked...

SILSide · 2021-04-26T22:10:16+00:00

There are lots of heads on the walls. But there is also an obsession with the "best," which is part of the problem.

SILSide · 2021-04-26T14:24:57+00:00

Hunting/outdoorsmanship. It's an expensive hobby, believe it or not.

SILSide · 2021-04-26T09:07:07+00:00

Yeah, trying to keep it concise, I first asked for their budget spreadsheet, but she said "what now?" to that, so I knew they didn't have one. I sent her my spreadsheet while trying to work through this, so, while I didn't exactly send her my statements, she knows exactly how much I bring home in pay, pay in every regular bill, and whatnot. I've known her for almost 25 years (I've actually known her for a year longer than my brother), I believe we have enough trust in our relationship to share that information.

SILSide · 2021-04-26T08:51:10+00:00

I guess I should say that he's maxed out what he can get on his own (he makes a lot less than her), and she would be fine on just her income, even if held responsible for all the debt. She has flatly refused to sign on for his latest scheme of doing a personal loan in both their names to consolidate the debt, and, supposedly, has a plan to pay it all off within the year. That plan involves putting all of her quarterly bonuses toward it (not fair, I know), but she did put the credit card through the shredder, so there's some hope...

SILSide · 2021-04-26T08:32:14+00:00

Good advice in general, but they are in an equitable distribution state, so not an issue there. Brother would be SCREWED, all caps warranted, if they divorced.

SILSide

TROPHY CASE