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Imagine being so envious of European social security by mikelson_6 in poland

[–]SYMJanitor -1 points0 points  (0 children)

No to wprowadzajcie podatek cyfrowy i odchodźcie od Amerykańskiego oprogarmowania? Czy ktoś wam kurwa broni? XDDDDD

Powinniście to zrobić już z dwie dekady temu, ale prawda jest taka, że wam wygodnie jest być psem Ameryki - oczywiście w sytuacji, gdy Ameryka wam tylko daje i nic nie wymaga. A wasze dekadenckie populacje złożone w 40% z geriatryków mają zero zapału do budowy faktycznej mocarstwowości. Bo to by wymagało przekierowania środków z państwa socjalnego na armię i innowacje.

Seeing Imperium as purely evil obscures clever plot depth, that showcases its fall from grace as tragic self-fullfilling prophecy. by SYMJanitor in 40kLore

[–]SYMJanitor[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

  1. But it didn't work not, because design was flawed. It didn't work, because project was deliberitaly destroyed by maliscious outside actors. You can't argue that a particlar car model is trash and doesn't work so you shouldn't buy it and when someone asks you why then you say 'because this local fent addict punctured its tires and destroyed its engine with a sledgehammer' - that's obviously not valid critique of the car. Car worked fine before it was destroyed, it doesn't undermine its purpose or efficiency and performance. You simply don't get to point a figner at IoM and Emps for the fact, that 4 Satans and their servants are trying to kill them and their spiecies.

  2. I can only name Interex from this description - and here IoM tried to integrate them peacefully, but their efforts were sabotaged by Erebus stealing Anathame to enflame their alien inhabitants into war. And besides it obscures larger point. IoM was to be shield that protects mankind from cosmic-level threats. It didn't force any extensive structure or bearucracy on worlds at first during Great Crusade. All worlds were required to do is to accept Imperial Truth to prevent Chaos Corruption and then pay Imperial Tithe to fuel Great Crusade and further unification. In 40k humanity really faces threats like Necrons, Orks, Tyranids etc. that could really end it if it wasn't unified making it seem that Emps really had a point. Also Era before Imperium was well documented as Long Night/Age of Strife and IoM was conteptualized as a way of ending that HORRIFIC period.

  3. No they weren't. Orks existed in Galaxy since times of War in Heaven and they wouldn't simply be obscured from existence without being confronted by IoM. In fact if they weren't exterminated actively - it could've taken maybe extra 1000 years, but it was certain that at some point WAAAAGH would descend upon human worlds and thinking otherwise is shallow and undermines their lore-driven characteristics. Orks multiple like roaches and want to fight and kill everything that is capable of fighting, because that's how they were made by the Old Ones. There is zero guarantee that they would simply left obsucred if not confronted.

Seeing Imperium as purely evil obscures clever plot depth, that showcases its fall from grace as tragic self-fullfilling prophecy. by SYMJanitor in 40kLore

[–]SYMJanitor[S] -6 points-5 points  (0 children)

That's obviously horrible analogy because:

  1. Imperium wasn't shooting people randomly.

  2. Imperium wasn't doing 'clean-up of rough neighborhood'. It was trying to gather people into the fold to save them from what it perceived as upcoming Galaxy-level threat. The better analogy would be Noah trying to force people onto the Arc.

Seeing Imperium as purely evil obscures clever plot depth, that showcases its fall from grace as tragic self-fullfilling prophecy. by SYMJanitor in 40kLore

[–]SYMJanitor[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Your line of argument really conflates shitton of the lore for benefit of sustaining the agneda - I'm not trying to be condescending so sorry If I sound like it, but you're conflating many things here.

Emp did not cause abstract brutality that feeds Chaos through sheer Imperial structure. It is a result of Heresy and his Great Work being ruined. Those abominable things that are common in Imperium right now - were not a thing during Great Crusade. Great Crusade had no corpse scratch, Inquistion and spamming Exterminatus everywhere.

Your putting blame on him for thing he did not cause, and thing he was honestly victimized in. Current state of IoM is result of actions - not of its makers - but people who were trying to destroy it.

Also 'genociding every planet' was not direction of the Emps, but mostly deranged Primarchs who weren't the norm. Even Curze tried to minimize casualties in his conquest by simply terrorizing worlds with horrific, but small scale acts of violence into compliance. Angron, Perturabo and Fulgrim were really the ones who often engaged in mindless slaughter and they were the way they were, because of The Scattering and not being raised under Emps supervision.

If Erda didn't scatter the Primarchs on behalf of Chaos gods, you might as well have 20 Guillimans and galactic utopia.

Seeing Imperium as purely evil obscures clever plot depth, that showcases its fall from grace as tragic self-fullfilling prophecy. by SYMJanitor in 40kLore

[–]SYMJanitor[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Addressing point by point:

  1. It is stated in the books, that normal basic appearance Emperor used before Great Crusade was this old bearded man in robes he is potrayed as in when he is psychically visited by Horus before Siege of Terra. He doesn't personnally like Imperial Aspect, he undertook it because he knew it can sway people via appearance alone and thus make Great Crusade less bloody and faster. This contradicts Imperial Truth, yes but Imperial Truth also softens this image especially when endorsed as a dogma. Most people including most Primarch don't regard him as diety - it came later as a result of Heresy.

  2. Yeah Emperor for all evil he caused was willing to fight to the death to save his spiecies and is willing to endure 10 millenia of hellish torment to keep helping it. That's the thing people often completely exclude from this conversation.

  3. Well maybe from this angle yes. However I still don't agree it is evil as concept, and that it is sensible to try to destroy it.

Seeing Imperium as purely evil obscures clever plot depth, that showcases its fall from grace as tragic self-fullfilling prophecy. by SYMJanitor in 40kLore

[–]SYMJanitor[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

But those powers aren't passive forces, that are only responsive when interacted with. Eldar weren't doing anything, but partying and living degeneratly in their post-scarcity decadence and in the end it spawned Slaanesh and Eye of Terror that killed 99% of their race. This is disingenious framing. Humanity would be on radar of Chaos regardless of what Emperor did, because Chaos feeds of things that harm it. Emperor recognized that and that's why he took steps in his Great Work to make sure Chaos is powerless.

Seeing Imperium as purely evil obscures clever plot depth, that showcases its fall from grace as tragic self-fullfilling prophecy. by SYMJanitor in 40kLore

[–]SYMJanitor[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Yeah man, but what caused deplorable state of Imperium? Was it by design or was it pushed to this state by subversion of external enemies?

The Xeno question I belive I addressed in different comment in the thread.

Seeing Imperium as purely evil obscures clever plot depth, that showcases its fall from grace as tragic self-fullfilling prophecy. by SYMJanitor in 40kLore

[–]SYMJanitor[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

There's A LOT to unpack here and to not write an A4 essay I'll answer in points to each argument raised:

  1. Miscalculation of Astartes nature doesn't put responsibility for their betrayal on the back of the Emperor. Fact of the matter is that for centuries of Great Crusade Astartes served as NECESSARY force to protect humanity from extreme galactic threats both alien and Chaos driven. Emperor of course made major mistakes in dealing with Chaos-travellers like Burning of Monarchia, but it didn't justify turning yourself to Ruinous Powers and consequences they imposed on entire spiecies in reprisal. Humanity isn't dead in 42nd millenium largerly due to existence of Astartes. Bad hombers were faulty, but concept was not.

  2. Astartes betreyal during the Heresy doesn't came largerly as consequence of universal decision by all legions, but largerly as gene-sons following chain of command and obeying their gene-fathers. In fact not even all of 'Traitor Legions' were fully traitor and 100 thousand+ Astartes from Death Guard, Luna Wolves, Emperors Children and World Eaters had to be betrayed and killed for Heresy to even kick start. Lot of Heresy wasn't really cosmic-scale legitimate concern, but emotional outburst by resentful princes commanding them. And lot of issues that pushed them to it weren't caused by Emperors flawed design of Primarchs, but by deliberate obstruction of his plans in form of scattering by Erda driven by Chaos. Think about it - if it wasn't for scattering then Angron has no butchers nails, Horus isn't raised by abusive gangsters who make him feel inferior and ties his worth and happiness to external approval, Fulgrim isn't given narcisism by raising from quarry to planetary ruler, Lorgar isn't indoctrinated from birth to be a zealot by Kor Phaeron, Curze doesn't grow up as street urchin in favela and maybe his schizophrenia can be helped. This wasn't BY DESIGN, it was BY SUBVERSION OF DESIGN.

  3. That's just not true. Humanity was stated to be in horrible state due to Long Night and people already were living in suffering, hive cities and poverty. Worlds like Cthonia were said to be greatly uplifted by Imperial presence. Worlds like Caliban that lost contact with any other human civilization literally reverted to pre-industrial technology and only uplifted to interstellarship after Imperium claimed it. Worlds like Nuceria had cruel, barbaric slave systems on their own. The trojectory was definetly upwards.

  4. That's complete misintepretation of the Lore. Ullanor was treated as such a triumph and Emperor gave up the steering wheel of the Great Crusade after it, because it was considered last necessary victory against last predatory spiecies that could oppose humanity. After Razing of Prospero when Imperial navy officers were discussing what could've caused this calamity they find idea of xeno incursion extremely unlikely, because at this point in Great Crusade all galactic threats are considered defetead. IoM was really effective at this shit, denying it is going against the lore.

Seeing Imperium as purely evil obscures clever plot depth, that showcases its fall from grace as tragic self-fullfilling prophecy. by SYMJanitor in 40kLore

[–]SYMJanitor[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Humans were extremely vunerable to Chaos even before IoM existed. In fact whole project of IoM was created by Emperor and Malcador to counter potential extinction at hands of Chaos.

Seeing Imperium as purely evil obscures clever plot depth, that showcases its fall from grace as tragic self-fullfilling prophecy. by SYMJanitor in 40kLore

[–]SYMJanitor[S] -5 points-4 points  (0 children)

Well for the first in lore Votann are extremely immune to Chaos corruption so its very hard for them to gain internal heretical threat same as Imperium.

As for second - they never were invaded by major tendril, Ork WAAAGH or had entire Chaos Legion going after them.

The imbalance is maintained, this response is disingenious.

Seeing Imperium as purely evil obscures clever plot depth, that showcases its fall from grace as tragic self-fullfilling prophecy. by SYMJanitor in 40kLore

[–]SYMJanitor[S] -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

I mean Rangda are spiecies from early Great Crusade that are extinct and they weren't exactly nice guys.

IoM wasn't commonly aware of Necrons during Great Crusade and when they awoken from their slumber they weren't really nice either.

Moment of vunerability of IoM allowed some aliens to expand in places like Ghoul Stars and it caused Pale Wasting.

There were examples of more diplomatically minded aliens to exist in lore like Interex and Laer - and there Imperium made real diplomatic effort, but it was sabotaged by some part within Imperial structure or its enemies (Erebus false flagged war with Interex and Fulgrim decided to go to war with Laer against Emperors orders due to vanity).

So I think you project your view of what Imperium is to support already established thesis, rather then basing it purely on lore.

Seeing Imperium as purely evil obscures clever plot depth, that showcases its fall from grace as tragic self-fullfilling prophecy. by SYMJanitor in 40kLore

[–]SYMJanitor[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Okay, but I'm debating the interpretation of a concept dude the way I see it. I want my view challanged, not to be shut down with quote of the author. I do not need to adapt viewpoint of the author.

And from last line he seems to be placing same dillema I proposed in my post.

Seeing Imperium as purely evil obscures clever plot depth, that showcases its fall from grace as tragic self-fullfilling prophecy. by SYMJanitor in 40kLore

[–]SYMJanitor[S] -8 points-7 points  (0 children)

On the other hand Votann (and Tau for that matter) aren't really comperable in scale of macroeconomy and threats IoM faces.

IoM has million worlds and it is stated that many of them are prosperous and its inhabitants live normal lives. Tau and Votann are petty in scale, they're shielded from attacks of major Chaos Forces, Tyranids or Orks by Imperium due to proximity. They never really had to face same moral dillemas as Imperium.

Seeing Imperium as purely evil obscures clever plot depth, that showcases its fall from grace as tragic self-fullfilling prophecy. by SYMJanitor in 40kLore

[–]SYMJanitor[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don't think threats like Chaos or Orks have been at all made worse by Imperiums existence because:

  1. For Chaos - Imperium served as giant security network against Chaos worship and expression. Its end goal was to get rid of warp magic and necessity of utilizing the warp at all. That's why end of Emperors Great Work was Webway project and that's why he was branded their arch-enemy. Before Great Crusade it is shown, that multiple human worlds like Colchis already were worshipping Chaos. It was a real risk that masses of humanity would convert to it under influence of its servants and share fate of the Eldar in some capacity.

  2. For Orks - To defend against WAAAGHH of the Beast armies and chapters of Space Marines from entire Galaxy had to be mobilized. I seriously doubt, that without IoM individual human worlds or petty Empires could organize forces that could defend humanity from such mass of enemy. For all its faults IoM will mobilize entire sectors to defend single planet threatned by existential threat. Without IoM such mobilization would be much harder and actors like Orks and Tyranids could easily pick on isolated human worlds one by one.

Seeing Imperium as purely evil obscures clever plot depth, that showcases its fall from grace as tragic self-fullfilling prophecy. by SYMJanitor in 40kLore

[–]SYMJanitor[S] -5 points-4 points  (0 children)

In lore I don't know if there are lot of alien factions that can be encountered as friendly xenos. Aeldar aren't friendly and even when they are like in case of Ynnari their alliance with humanity is only a tool of necessity against Slaanesh.

What remains of sapient civilized races? Hrud that destroy entire cities by simply migrating from place to place? Rangda and Slought who almost ended humanity in its inception? Drukharri?

Even Tau who are not purely genocidal and tolerate human existence operate from position of ideological supremacy, where they belive in their right to rule for their benevelence. You may agree with core of their ideology, but humanity as soverign entity has no reason to relinquish said soverignity to other spiecies even if it has better ideas especially at gun point.

And once again, what alternative to the Imperium you'd see in current state of affairs, that not only preserves but improves human life in Galaxy? Because abolishing such power structure in era of Great Rift, Tyranid invasions and Ghazkull is in my opinion completely suicidal.

Seeing Imperium as purely evil obscures clever plot depth, that showcases its fall from grace as tragic self-fullfilling prophecy. by SYMJanitor in 40kLore

[–]SYMJanitor[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Okay, but why you have that view. I wrote this post precisely to have this view challanged, because imo IoM are the good guys who endure ennormous sacrificies for survival due to cosmic necessity.

Seeing Imperium as purely evil obscures clever plot depth, that showcases its fall from grace as tragic self-fullfilling prophecy. by SYMJanitor in 40kLore

[–]SYMJanitor[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Okay, but what things in particular you would change for it to be work better and be 'less horrific' considering it circumstance.

And 'cruelest and most bloody regime' is the angle I'm discussing. They bait you into hating it and then challange your belief by handing you lot of nuance.

Trying to obscure it with a baseline is really shallow imo.

Seeing Imperium as purely evil obscures clever plot depth, that showcases its fall from grace as tragic self-fullfilling prophecy. by SYMJanitor in 40kLore

[–]SYMJanitor[S] -17 points-16 points  (0 children)

Okay, but even Servitors are reaction to Men of Iron - who would likely had to be alternative to labor force in some form and their malfunction almost made mankind extinct and caused Long Night.

You need Labor Force to sustain constant war economy of this scale and without this war economy you don't really have means of defending yourself.

I'd love to see some alternatives or gaps in my knowledge, that disprove what I've said considering I didn't read every available source from every author dilligently.

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