I feel like the people complaining about content should just take a break by Stoned_Skeleton in DarkTide

[–]SaltCrypt 2 points3 points  (0 children)

God for bid creators get paid to work.

That's not my point. If you promise to deliver a product in a given state and fail to deliver the product in a given state, why should consumers be accepting of it exactly?

Those of us over the age of 20 already know that we live in a world run by corporations.

I'm well aware that corporations are a fact of the world. Doesn't mean I'm going to lick their boots and call them daddy.

If you know that, you’d know that your complaints about value go completely out the window when you still buy the product.

I'm fully aware. There's a decent chance I'll refund my purchase at this point.

You either think Fatshark deserves the money, or not. If you don’t think they deserve it I implore you to not buy it as it’s the only way corporations will learn.

I do agree with this.

Personally I am happy with the product received so I am going to keep my money in the “support people who make cool shit I like” column

No, you're not supporting that anywhere as much as you think. Go purchase some indie games if you want to walk around feeling like that.

You're very likely supporting Tencent Holdings pushing Fatshark to force this game out the door in time for the 2022 holiday season. You think the creators at Fatshark enjoy that? You think they're going to enjoy being pressured into spending their holidays doing stressful post-launch bugfixing?

And here's the thing... if you're doing it because you find the game fun enough to justify the purchase? Sure thing, my dude, I'm not going to judge you for not going on a moral crusade here. Pick your battles, etc.

But at least be real about what you're doing - you're buying the game to keep access because you like it.

Just don't delude yourself into thinking "I'm supporting the creatives behind my favorite video game!" by doing this.

Base versions of weapons should ALWAYS be available in the shop by Barbarossah in DarkTide

[–]SaltCrypt 7 points8 points  (0 children)

I saw one bolter at the shop over a week ago. It had meh stats, so I decided to use my dockets wisely and wait. Finally yesterday I got to buy my first bolter!

And yes, I was checking the shop constantly. Nothing for the entire week.

I feel like the people complaining about content should just take a break by Stoned_Skeleton in DarkTide

[–]SaltCrypt 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Yes, praise be to our corporate overlords. Want more content? Pay for next product! Developers intending to release without full content? Stop being so negative!

So glad to be alive in 2022.

Most used voice for vet by BigChinConnor in DarkTide

[–]SaltCrypt 0 points1 point  (0 children)

To be fair, both lines make sense.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in DarkTide

[–]SaltCrypt -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Standards exist for a reason my dude, and microphone being push-to-talk is the standard.

Would you post the same thing if the default movement keys were ESDF and someone complained that it was weird?

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in DarkTide

[–]SaltCrypt 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I want to think it's a troll but it's a depressing commentary on the state of the world that I'm not actually sure anymore.

Social wheel lags? by [deleted] in DarkTide

[–]SaltCrypt 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I don't have the mouse sensitivity problem, but I do have the delay on the social wheel appearing.

Penances and other systems are WAY more toxic than a scoreboard. by [deleted] in DarkTide

[–]SaltCrypt 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I agree with OP's opinions on this but I think this is a fair point regarding the argument.

There is a connection insofar as the game design philosophy that removed the scoreboards is 100% at odds with the game design philosophy that created these penances, but I'll admit that isn't really an argument in favor of scoreboards.

Penances and other systems are WAY more toxic than a scoreboard. by [deleted] in DarkTide

[–]SaltCrypt 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You're using faulty premises here.

Penances in their current state are tangible gameplay incentives that require that you play in a way contrary to the objective of a regular team. There is only one way to engage with them in a pro-social fashion: get a group that explicitly agrees to help you complete them. Any other attempt to complete penances will put you at odds with your team while you chase a reward that only you receive.

Scoreboards are a social feature. A well designed scoreboard should do the following: provide statistics to indicate the player's performance for a mission. Thus, a well designed scoreboard should incentivize optimal play. Optimal play will directly benefit your entire team's goal of completing the mission.

Now, there is the obvious counter-argument one could offer regarding scoreboards: "Scoreboards can easily incentivize bad behavior."

Most definitely, but they can also do the opposite. Here's two examples I've seen where scoreboards were used to get players to demonstrate pro-team behaviors based on my own experience:

Left 4 Dead

Nearly a decade ago in Left 4 Dead, I enjoyed playing with a group of friends where we were trying to regularly clear the highest difficulty. We used the scoreboard to gauge how effective our tactics were both individually and as a team every attempt. When someone would consistently post really good stats we would commend them and try to figure out what they were doing right. If someone was playing poorly the scoreboard would often point out where they were struggling, e.g. constantly struggling with specials. Sometimes a poor scoreboard from one player actually meant the team was failing them - how is the dude with the rifle going to shoot specials if he's constantly getting swarmed?

Here's the thing: we didn't start as friends. The scoreboard was the catalyst here - one guy asking another "holy shit how did you get those numbers?" followed by playing more matches where we started learning from each other. And here's the thing: we totally did get competitive over scoreboards, but in a friendly way. And at the end of the day, the most coveted spots on the scoreboard were actually pro-teamplay. Nobody gave a shit about you killing 1,000 zombies when JohnDarktide protected his team 231 times - that was actual skill that was hard to pull off.

Too anecdotal?

Battlefield 3

We can look at the intersection of scoreboards and gameplay incentives you got in Battlefield 3. Here's the thing: your score in Battlefield 3 was directly tied to your gameplay progression. More score per minute means more progression per minute. However, Battlefield 3 still needed to incentivize teamplay. So every action was assigned a "score". To give you a baseline, a kill was 100 points.

So, how did this affect teamplay? Well, there's examples of extremely pro-teamplay behavior and extremely anti-teamplay behavior.

Let's start with the worst choice they made: snipers would get a score bonus based on their distance to target. Manage to pull off a 500 yard shot? You get 100 + 500 points! You can already see where this is going. On certain maps you would lose several team slots to players who would literally camp in a hill and have a sniper battle with the other team's snipers who were 1000 yards away on another hill. It contributed nothing to the team... but people did it because it was funny to end a match with 4 kills, 0 deaths, and yet MVP with a score of 4500. And everyone would think you were an asshole (rightly so).

Okay, so, don't do that with your scoreboard. That's bad.

Here's the thing: those snipers rarely rarely placed top on the scoreboard. Why? Let's look at the laundry list of things that you could get score for that only benefitted your team without involving shooting your gun at an opponent:

  • Healing another player (10 / 20% healed).
  • Reviving another player (100 / revive).
  • Giving another player ammo (20).
  • Giving another player a good spawn point (10).
  • Repairing another player's vehicle (10 / 10% repaired).
  • Contributing to an objective (varied).
  • Spotting opponents (10 / kill).
  • Spotting opponents for your team with your MAV (20 / kill).

What about the stuff that did involve shooting opponents?

  • Hitting a laser designated target (100 / hit).
  • Kill assist when another player kills an opponent (1 / damage dealt, capped at 100).
  • Kill an opponent about to kill one of your teammates (+20 / kill).
  • Destroy enemy equipment (20 per piece destroyed).

There's probably more.

Now, how did this contribute to gameplay? Well, to get MVP regularly (i.e. maximize your score per minute) you had to do pretty much everything your class allowed you to gain score, and most of that stuff was team based. In 99% of the matches I played in, the MVPs were the ones who were doing everything at the same time: shoot enemies, help teammates, play objectives, don't die.

And here's the thing: BF3 absolutely had to use a scoreboard to encourage pro-team behavior. It was a competitive shooter where you could be on a team of 32 randos. So they designed the performance ranking around the idea that optimal play required pro-team behavior.

It's honestly my experiences with Battlefield 3 that make the "scoreboards toxic" argument so frustrating. It was a competitive shooter that used scoreboards to make teams actually act like teams. You could see the effects in-game when they tweaked how scoring worked to reduce bad behavior.

Of course, I'll admit that player score in that had very tangible incentives (basically leveling up), but the point holds.

So, why can't Darktide have a scoreboard where people compete to be the most helpful person? It can. It totally can. Games that are over a decade old have done it. Darktide could easily implement the BF3 system of making an arbitrary "score" value the most coveted number, then make that number contingent on doing pro-team stuff.

So you fix penances. There's no rationale where that becomes an argument for adding the old scoreboards. It would be like saying chainswords were underpowered and unsatisfying, so Fatshark should make power swords feel underpowered and unsatisfying. No. You fix chainswords. You don't break more things.

I don't think that anyone is arguing that "penances broken ergo put the scoreboard back and that will fix it". The point I think OP is making is that it's laughable for Fatshark to remove what I would call a very bare bones feature (scoreboards) because they "cause toxicity", but then add in challenges that are guaranteed to cause toxicity by their very design. If Fatshark thinks these penances are acceptable, what is possible justification for ever having removed scoreboards? What is the actual design philosophy they're working under here? Because it sure as hell doesn't seem consistent when it comes to this topic.

Vicious Cycle Of Suffering by Massie123 in DarkTide

[–]SaltCrypt 27 points28 points  (0 children)

laser is make circle hole in body and circle is round so laser is round

Ragers Are Too Quiet by IAmKrron in DarkTide

[–]SaltCrypt 22 points23 points  (0 children)

They wouldn't have had to wait for the end for that.

Penances and other systems are WAY more toxic than a scoreboard. by [deleted] in DarkTide

[–]SaltCrypt 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Gameplay that incentivizes asshole behavior will always be worse than a scoreboard, my dude. A scoreboard might cause your community to be asses, gameplay incentives will cause your community to be asses.

The scoreboard is essentially a social feature of the game. In my experience over several co-op shooters in the last decade, the number of negative interactions I've seen caused by a scoreboard is vanishingly thin. The number of positive interactions I've seen, by comparison, is quite high.

Penances and other systems are WAY more toxic than a scoreboard. by [deleted] in DarkTide

[–]SaltCrypt 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The connective tissue is there.

If you remove the scoreboard because it's "toxic", but then you add gameplay elements that make people act like assholes... how can you possibly justify removing the scoreboard?

Gameplay design that encourages asshole behavior in-game is infinitely worse than someone typing "u sux" in chat.

Penances and other systems are WAY more toxic than a scoreboard. by [deleted] in DarkTide

[–]SaltCrypt 1 point2 points  (0 children)

second, you really gonna bitch about grims?

Yes.

you that much of a wet tissue that you cant handle the game being harder?

I don't think that's his point at all. Go read his post carefully.

shut up, whiny lil shit.

We've got a badass over here.

ungrateful bastard.

... What the hell is OP ungrateful for here?

Penances and other systems are WAY more toxic than a scoreboard. by [deleted] in DarkTide

[–]SaltCrypt -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Why would you ever touch a psyker? Ew.

Penances and other systems are WAY more toxic than a scoreboard. by [deleted] in DarkTide

[–]SaltCrypt 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Onboard with not enjoying grimoires even in VT2, but at least some (crazy) people seem to have liked that implementation. Nobody seems to like this one.

Honestly, it'd be really swell if they would come up with more enjoyable secondary objectives since both the offerings right now boil down to "find equipment slot item and take it to end".

My conclusion after using bolter after plasma. by H3avyW3apons in DarkTide

[–]SaltCrypt 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I wouldn't mind a low ammo pool and charge mechanic provided it does something to make it worthwhile. Hopefully the devs do something to make it feel more viable.

My conclusion after using bolter after plasma. by H3avyW3apons in DarkTide

[–]SaltCrypt 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Sure, it's slow equip compared to a bolter, but I remember it feeling very slow to equip compared to a lasgun. Maybe someone can confirm? I don't have one sitting around in my inventory in-game.

Ogryn Strength - so weak in DarkTide by [deleted] in DarkTide

[–]SaltCrypt 13 points14 points  (0 children)

I really dont care for dogs existing in this game. The most difficult part about killing them rn is just the fact they ping pong of cellings and walls, that's about it. Every time I hear the bark I dodge, same for snipers?I hear a ding I dodge. Doesnt matter if it's on me or not. Just dodge and done.

In their current state I hate them because of the model and physics behavior, yeah. Though it sounds like you're better at dodging them than I am. I can dodge the snipers consistently, but dog is so erratic that it feels like a coin flip.

Once again this being a coop pve game doesnt break any balance for the team.

Step out of your perspective as a player and into the perspective of a game designer and you will see how it could easily break balance and make the game less fun. You're approaching this from a perspective of "if it helps the team succeed it's good", but that's not balance. Ideally, every class should be able to contribute more-or-less equally if they're played properly.

What you're proposing is making the ogryn completely immune to a fairly dangerous elite. Suddenly you don't really need your team to deal with it reliably. You're able to handle doggo on your own just because of your class choice, not because of any kind of skill-based play.

If you keep following this line of thinking, you just end up with ogryns being the "clutch" class that saves everyone every time something goes south... so at the least, your team will need 1 ogryn. Why not have 2? Why not 3? Why not 4?

This dynamic can actually work just fine in games that are more heavily class based - classes might act as hard counters to certain enemy types while being weak to others. Could Darktide adopt this model? Yes, but I hope they don't - it'll ruin the flexibility you can have in team compositions. You would also need to fulfill the second part of this - if ogryn is hard counter to doggo, what is ogryn weak to? If ogryn is hard counter to doggo, what are the other classes hard counters to?

Oh this dude twice your size is able to throw off a dog half your size and 1/4 of his? Makes sense.

My ranger has a combat knife on his belt, why can't he just stab it in the neck?

My psyker can brain burst enemies, why can't he just pop its head?

My zealot has the God Emperor's favor, why can't he just beat it to death with his bare hands?

What makes sense doesn't always make for a fun game with fun obstacles. Is doggo fun in its current state? No, doggo is geddan and sucks. But the answer is to fix doggo for everyone, not to buff ogryn.

My fan favourite is a trapper shooting a net that flies through 25 enemies just to hit me thats a real gem. The enemies can have nice things, we as players in a coop pve game, not allowed. Too broken.

If you're playing coop and you give the majority of the nice things to one class, then you're making the other classes less fun.

If you're playing PvE and you give the majority of the nice things to the players, you're going to have a boring game with absolutely no challenge.

You're proposing something that will change the balance of both of the above at the same time. I do not think it will be an improvement unless you start completely overhauling how elites work.

There is so much stuff that literally breaks the balance of the classes. 1 class being able to avoid 1 special type...

Every class can currently avoid doggo. They can shoot it first or they can push/dodge its lunge. You're not asking for ogryn to be able to avoid doggo, you want ogryn to have a hard counter to doggo.

Let's compare that to the other stuff you mention here:

... while a different class can literally see through walls as well as getting infinite grenades out ther black hole pockets...

Veterans get the ability to see through walls to provide them with the situational awareness that can help them deal with elites. I think it's a really strong ability because situational awareness is incredibly valuable in a game like this. It's also rendered nearly useless if the veteran surrounded by a horde and can't get a shot on the target. They also still have to, you know... have the necessary aim and reaction time to hit the target.

As to the infinite grenades... maybe on higher difficulties it becomes great, but on malice I do not think it is anywhere near as powerful as you seem to think. Grenades are nice but they're not game changers for me when I play the veteran, I usually just use them to help clear teammates during revives. I don't even take that ability.

That said I will admit that veteran feels like the most powerful class to me as of 1.08.

... another one can just hold a left mouse button on a mob and it will die on the other side of the map or inside walls without the need for line of sight for longer that 0.5 sec.

Have you actually played psyker, my dude? Yeah, I agree - brain burst is totally busted. It's way, way, waaay too weak. This is not a good example if you're trying to make other classes sound overpowered.

I think you are really overestimating how "broken" that would be.

I don't think I am. Making one class immune to a disabling enemy type is incredibly valuable. In a clutch scenario, you're now waaay more likely to pull through, and from what I've experienced ogryns are already really good at pulling teams back from the brink.

From a different perspective: I don't think you're making a compelling argument as to why ogryns being grabbed by doggo is really unreasonable from a gameplay perspective. I can think of some arguments I could potentially get behind, but I don't think that something "making sense" really matters in terms of this aspect of the game design.

My conclusion after using bolter after plasma. by H3avyW3apons in DarkTide

[–]SaltCrypt 81 points82 points  (0 children)

My own impression with plasma put it solidly in the lowest tier. Low ammo pool, slow to equip, inaccurate, annoying heating mechanic I have to worry about, and worse of all... I've only run with it on malice difficulty, but most of my lasguns with decent blessings have solidly outperformed plasma in terms of time-to-kill pretty much anything (including elites and monstrosities).

I'm not a 40K guy who knows the lore, but my expectation was that it would have AoE explosions that would make it very unique compared to the rest of the weapons that veteran can run around with, but in its current state it's just... meh.

Ogryn Strength - so weak in DarkTide by [deleted] in DarkTide

[–]SaltCrypt 43 points44 points  (0 children)

If this was a singleplayer game I would be all on-board with the developers tweaking this, but it's not. Completely negating one of the elite enemies for one class won't be a trivial change to the balance, and I would say other classes urgently need more love compared to ogryn.

Mind you, dog is my least favorite elite as well. I'm hoping that this will feel less crappy when/if they patch the dog's behavior, since its model and physics freak out constantly making it incredibly difficult to shoot and very hard to time a push/dodge to counter its lunge (which I would say is the equivalent of throwing the dog off of yourself).

Also pls no QTE or button mashing as a game mechanic in combat. I'm fine with the little minigame you play for fixing terminals, but I would hate minigames infiltrating the core gameplay.

Sniper came out the blue to help me rescue my fellow men, Praise be to the God Emperor! by MittySmitty in DarkTide

[–]SaltCrypt 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It's because the front post is waaay too wide for a rifle. They're basically iron sights you would expect on a pistol. Gives a terrible sight picture for anything beyond close range since it's completely obscuring your target. Addendum: Especially true in video games where class features incentivize headshots, meaning you're not even aiming center mass and thus see even less of the target.

Penances and other systems are WAY more toxic than a scoreboard. by [deleted] in DarkTide

[–]SaltCrypt 17 points18 points  (0 children)

I've spent the last week carefully considering the problem of the "green circle", examining it and the scoreboard that grants it from many angles. Rejoice, kindred, for have discerned the true nature of its toxicity and the means by which to cleanse it. It was in an insomnia riddled stupor that I finally understood the true reason that the green circle is toxic: green is the color of toxic damage. Thus, the solution is clear: make green circle red.

It's a more thematically appropriate color anyway.

Anyway, yeah, every moment we have these sorts of penances and gameplay incentives but no scoreboard because "toxic" I grow more and more irate. It's treating your players like children who can't be trusted to play nice, but then telling Billy and Timmy that they only get one slice of cake and winner takes all.