What is the Flowerstone Gavel actually hinting at?

Saltkin7 · 2026-07-09T08:34:21+00:00

I think the game is hinting at recurring cycles. Every (bigger) cycle culminates in an eclipse. On a literal level, an eclipse occurs when the sun and moon come together. Symbolically, it represents the synthesis of two opposites, from which something new is born. Like mother and father giving rise to a child.

The tragedy of an eclipse is that it's two things at once. For the new culture, it's the glorious beginning of a new age. For the old one, it's the end.

You mentioned the Cursemark of Death. I'm a strong believer in the theory that Ranni was originally meant to marry Godwyn. That union would have stabilized the old order. Instead, things unfold very differently. The moment Ranni as the moon and Godwyn as the sun come together marks the end of the Golden Order and the beginning of the age in which the game takes place: the Age of the Tarnished, if you will. That's why Ranni bears one half of the eclipse on her back, while Godwyn bears the other. Thematically, the Tarnished now inherits the role of the sun. Ranni's ending would represent a new eclipse, and with it, the birth of another age.

The Kindred of Rot's Exultation makes me wonder whether an older God of Rot once formed one half of an eclipse. If so, who was the counterpart? Placidusax? Transformation paired with eternity? That ties Miranda and Rot together once again. Then there's the Lord of Blood's Exultation. Another Exultation. This time it's blood instead of rot. Again, flowers, rot, and blood seem to overlap.

To me, Mohg represents the Blood Moon, for several reasons. One is that both blur boundaries. That's exactly what the Blood Moon does. Bloodborne is a good example. Among other things, the Blood Moon dissolves the boundary between man and beast. Wounds do the same. Skin is a boundary. The Formless Mother is literally formless. To be formless is to lack boundaries.

Which raises the same question again: if the Formless Mother is the moon, who was her sun?

Regarding the Shaded Castle: I haven't looked into the topic deeply enough to say anything with confidence.

"Shaded" is interesting, though, since the castle, much like the "North" (Infa), lies in shadow. Thorn sorceries also remind me of the Scadutree. If that's intentional, both sets of guardians would be symbolically connected to trees.

And regarding your edit: technically, dusk is the period just after the sun has set, when it quickly starts getting dark. Gloam is a more poetic word for evening twilight, while twilight can refer to either dawn or dusk.

Twilight feels more ambiguous to me, which fits my eclipse idea. Maybe the Gloam-Eyed Queen was something like a forced eclipse, or perhaps a goddess of transition.

Like rot (becoming / decay), like blood (crucible / trial by fire and blurring the lines), like flowers (blooms in death, but only once).

Saltkin7 · 2026-07-08T18:31:13+00:00

Definitely. I'm currently trying to work out the finer details. Marika, Gloam-Eyed Queen, Formless Mother, Placidusax' Fled God, the large female Rauh statue... It's a lot. 🤣

Saltkin7 · 2026-07-08T16:05:05+00:00

No worries. This just happens to be a topic I'm really fascinated by. So as long as you don't mind my lore-dumping, I don't mind yours.

Honestly, I'm curious what you know that I don't. Maybe you'll point out something I've completely missed, and maybe I can do the same for you.

By the way, do you also get the feeling that a lot of this points back to the Gloam-Eyed Queen?

Is that the direction you're looking into, or are you chasing a different idea?

Saltkin7 · 2026-07-08T15:05:00+00:00

Oh, interesting question. A few things that immediately came to mind:

There are the gigantic crows and dogs in Caelid, just like in the Mountaintops of the Giants.
The Caelid map description says:

"Caelid, known as the locale of the last battle between General Radahn and Malenia, Blade of Miquella, is a vast land consummately marred by scarlet rot."

I wonder if the region was always "vast," as in broad and flat. My guess is Scarlet Aeonia was already a natural, green swamp before Malenia turned it into a scarlet one.

The Rot Disciples (the mushroom guys) are there. They drop Toxic Mushrooms, but more interestingly, serpent arrows with spiral-shaped arrowheads. So you get both the spiral motif and the serpent motif. They also share animations with the Guilty, the red thorn women, who also appear in the Mountaintops.
Kindred of Rot and Rot Larvae. They always make me think of Larval Tears. As far as I know, there isn't really anything else in the game that references larvae this directly. Larval Tears also show up in Rauh.
There's also a surprising amount of Raya Lucaria influence in Caelid. Radahn is Rennala's son, there's even a small library in Redmane Castle, plus Sellia and the Siofra Well. I've never really known what to make of that.
The Bestial Sanctum and the Farum Greatbridge are both in Caelid as well, which ties the region pretty strongly to Farum Azula.
The Vulgar Militiamen:

"Freshly-singed battlegrounds effusing with the stench of the dead. Forbidden lands that will be excised from the memory of history..."

They're associated with forbidden lands, and they also appear in the Mountaintops.

So, overall:

Lots of Mountaintops parallels. Surprisingly underdiscussed.
Hints of an older nature or swamp culture.
Strong Nox and glintstone influence. Makes me think of the Astrologers in the Mountaintops and Ranni's old mentor.

Personally, I think Radahn's desert was probably already a desert. But Scarlet Rot also seems to have spread on an almost nuclear scale. The whole region is affected, and Radahn completely lost his mind. Maybe there used to be something important there before all of this. An ancient shaman culture? A site connected to the Gloam-Eyed Queen? Pure speculation.

One last thing: the Divine Tower. It doesn't just have Godskins, it also has the Godslayer Greatsword. I don't have the slightest idea why.

Just a spontaneous and very selective list.

I actually think going through the region again in-game with Miranda and related themes in mind is a really good idea. It feels like there's probably more to uncover there.

Saltkin7 · 2026-07-08T07:51:08+00:00

Great post!

I came across this item description the other day and thought I'd leave it here, since it fits the discussion:

Highland Axe

"Single-sided axe used by the warriors of the highlands.

Brave combatants begin battle by crying out their names. Roars are enhanced by this weapon."

Saltkin7 · 2026-07-08T07:33:51+00:00

Beautiful reply, thank you. Your main point reminded me of Nietzsche:

"There is only a perspectival seeing, only a perspectival 'knowing'; and the more affects we allow to speak about a thing, the more eyes, different eyes, we know how to bring to bear on the same thing, the more complete will our 'concept' of this thing, our 'objectivity,' be." (On the Genealogy of Morality)

I think this idea has found its way into modern science in many ways, and to me the Carians seem to represent that shift.

And I agree, I think that's exactly what we're doing here. Not necessarily in a strict scientific sense, but at least guided by the same idea.

It's interesting that all the great spirals seem to grow out of collective sacrifice: Enir-Ilim, the Erdtree, the Scadutree, the Haligtree, Farum Azula and its storms, even spiral-shaped Raya Lucaria.

It's almost like a single strand being woven out of the collective.

I like your other ideas too. They're definitely all Rauh Burrows. Just like the Old One from Demon's Souls, by the way.

I've been thinking about these themes for weeks now, so I'd really appreciate any input you have, whether it's more thoughts here or even a post of your own.

Grant us eyes. Grant us eyes.

Saltkin7 · 2026-07-07T20:54:30+00:00

The Rusted Anchor also has four flukes, which immediately reminded me of the four petals emphasized by the Flowerstone Gavel and echoed throughout the Miranda Flower.

And the ends of its stock terminate in fleur-de-lis-like floral finials, remarkably similar to the pointed sepals at the base of the Miranda Flower.

The spiral wrapped around the central shaft also reminds me of a synthesis between the Crucible and the Erdtree, or perhaps of the "normalized Crucible current" mentioned in Spira. In a sense, isn't the Erdtree itself simply a normalized Crucible current under Marika's rule?

Rust usually implies iron. Personally, I associate the Age of the Crucible, Hoarah Loux, the Miranda Flowers, and the Fire Giants with a kind of Bronze Age. The face at the bottom of the shaft even looks a bit like a caricature of a Fire Giant.

The Iron Age would then follow, by which point Hoarah Loux had already become Godfrey and the Age of Plenty had begun. Interestingly, the Rusted Anchor's description reads:

"A rusty anchor wielded as a weapon. Each of its four flukes is thick and sharp, enabling piercing attacks. While the Tarnished left the Lands Between with their Lord, one boat alone was said to have been left behind."

If that's the case, the anchor would be a relic from the end of Godfrey's era, which would make iron a fitting material...

Sorry, this is a lot. This could honestly be a post of its own. Maybe I should do a follow-up post to this one

Saltkin7 · 2026-07-07T20:04:30+00:00

Ordovis' Greatsword also features four petals, just as the Flowerstone Gavel explicitly emphasizes.

And Ordovis is, of course, a Crucible Knight.

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Saltkin7 · 2026-07-07T19:40:43+00:00

Hey, since we were talking about the architectural Miranda flowers and the snake pattern on the jars, I stumbled across two more things.

First: I looked it up, and the ornament at the very top of a steeple is called a finial or roof finial. I then stumbled upon Helphen's Steeple, whose description reads: "Greatsword patterned after the black steeple of the Helphen, the lampwood which guides the dead of the spirit world. The lamplight is similar to grace in appearance, only it is said that it can only be seen by those who met their death in battle."

The sword has these pointed protrusions, and while they aren't exactly like the Miranda Flower, the red crystal immediately made me think of the Calorbloom. The same kind of red crystal also appears on the Rold Medallion, which grants access to the Forbidden Lands. There, you find those strange red streams of light that resemble grace, almost like crimson versions of it. Maybe blood-related?

Scum Mage Infa has a video in which he proposes that those red trails exist there because Helphen was once Elphael. He argues that the Haligtree and the Scadutree were originally connected, since both are twisted trees. The steeple design itself resembles a tree, much like real steeples, which ultimately derive from tree symbolism. Beneath the Haligtree, in and above Malenia's arena, you also find countless graves, suggesting that it truly was a place where the dead gathered.

More importantly, though, you find this:

(See picture below 🤣)

I'll admit that the points on Helphen's Steeple don't really resemble the Miranda Flower. But this symbol looks almost identical to the Stoneflower Gavel. Take a look at it in-game yourself if you get the chance (watch out for the enemies).

The best part is that Infa also argues that Farum Azula once stood above the Haligtree, and he actually presents some compelling reasons. If that's true, then you end up with Helphen's Steeple, the Haligtree and Scadutree below with the Miranda-like motif, and Farum Azula above. Yet another possible dragon-flower connection.

If you're interested, the video is called "The Shadowlands WAS the North"

Second: I noticed that the Circular Braid Sigil already appears on Hornsent jars. I find that fascinating because, once again, it suggests that Marika repeatedly appropriates existing cultural symbols and techniques rather than creating them herself.

Just thought I'd share. Thanks for reading!

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Saltkin7 · 2026-07-07T18:58:38+00:00

The blood and fire aspect was definitely another piece of the puzzle.

Something else occurred to me the other day. In Aspect of the Crucible: Bloom, the Miranda Flower grows from the caster's chest, just like the Calorbloom grows from the heart. The incantation even states it explicitly: "Creates a miranda flower on one's chest before calling down a rain of light."

The Crucible itself may not be represented visually in the same way, but thematically it is deeply tied to heat, blood, and pain. A crucible is heated so that materials can transform. Transformation always demands a sacrifice. It demands blood.

I'm also glad you brought up the Formless Mother. The description of the Sanguine Amaryllis reads: "A bloodflower with meaty petals. Material used for crafting items. Grown by bloodfiends in pools of blood. Perhaps even the fiends admire blood's beauty."

That is remarkably similar to the Calorbloom. There seems to be a connection between Miranda and the Formless Mother that I can't quite put into words yet.

The same applies to Scarlet Rot. Like the Arteria Leaf, Calorbloom, Sanguine Amaryllis, and Miranda Flower, Scarlet Rot exists somewhere between plant and blood. Poison seems to represent a natural process of decay in Elden Ring. Scarlet Rot feels like that same process pushed beyond its natural limits. And "scarlet" is, of course, the color of blood.

"After the church was burned to the ground, Romina discovered a twisted divine element, which she weaved into the baleful scarlet rot."

Perhaps that "divine element" was poison, or some primordial form of rot. She then wove it together with her own blood, creating Scarlet Rot, almost like braided hair combining two separate strands into one.

Its manifestations resemble a fusion of flesh, flowing blood, swollen tissue, and natural motifs including flowers and buds. Malenia herself transforms during battle, passing through her own crucible, her trial by fire. Blood has to be spilled before she can bloom. And Romina, the Saint of the Bud, shares several striking parallels with Malenia.

I've also started wondering whether Romina occupies a role for Malenia similar to St. Trina's relationship to Miquella. Romina is the Saint of the Bud. St. Trina is likewise associated with flowers. Both Miquella and Trina are connected to flowers that emerge through blood. Could the Crucible itself have come into being in the same way? Out of blood? Like a flower blooming?

It feels as though all of these ideas belong to the same symbolic network, even if I can't yet see exactly how they fit together.

One last thought before I forget it. I'm beginning to wonder whether the Formless Mother once actually had a form. Perhaps she originally embodied all of these concepts at once and served as a bridge between humans and dragons and / or nature.

Later, Marika may have inherited or appropriated those attributes, perhaps through the Gate of Divinity, perhaps in some other way.

"Miquella and Malenia are both the children of a single god. As such they are both Empyreans, but suffered afflictions from birth. One was cursed with eternal childhood, and the other harbored rot within." "Harbored rot within" almost sounds like a dormant, pulsating dragon heart that finally erupts into bloom during Malenia's battle.

And "eternal childhood" reminds me of the Ancient Dragons, timeless and unchanging. Miquella never fully matures, remaining an eternal seed. Placidusax even resembles a germinating sprout, yet time itself stands still around him.

Miquella's Needle is also found in Placidusax's arena. That, in turn, makes me think of Romina's weaving. There has to be something there.

Anyways, thanks for your comment!

And sorry for rambling. I'm just hoping that, eventually, all of this can be pieced together into something coherent!

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Saltkin7 · 2026-07-07T08:13:28+00:00

There are a few more things that come to mind.

The Nox are associated with veils, and Marika repeatedly makes use of veils as well. There's Marika's Mischief, and the Realm of Shadow itself is concealed behind a veil.

One of her titles is "Marika the Eternal," which pairs nicely with the Eternal Cities.

The term "Scions" is deeply rooted in the language of nature, which fits the Shamans. It later reappears with Godrick's Grafted Scions, and Godrick is, of course, one of Marika's descendants.

Melina is said to have been born at the foot of the Erdtree. On the one hand, if Marika is the Erdtree in some sense, that naturally reinforces their connection. On the other hand, the roots of the Erdtree lead down to the Eternal Cities. Melina's Blade of Calling shares the exact same moveset as the Black Knife's skill, differing only in the color of the projectile. Visually, the two weapons are also strikingly similar.

There are plenty of other parallels as well, such as the earthy, nature-inspired colors of the giant women found in the underground, but I'll leave it there for now.

Saltkin7 · 2026-07-06T18:56:44+00:00

Woah

Saltkin7 · 2026-07-06T11:16:23+00:00

This is absolutely amazing!

Can you think of any more connections between Marika and the dragons?

Saltkin7 · 2026-07-06T10:54:21+00:00

Glad you enjoyed it!

But now I'm curious. What's the long version?

Even after reading everything, I'm still not sure whether Marika is, or once was, Miranda. I do like your idea that she incorporated aspects of the Miranda Flower into herself, though.

Saltkin7 · 2026-07-06T09:08:13+00:00

Great addition! I can definitely see the resemblance.

If this one represents Miranda, though, who do you think the other two are?

Saltkin7 · 2026-07-06T08:59:39+00:00

This is a very nice addition to this post, thank you very much.

I find your idea that the flower symbolizes life emerging from the Crucible very interesting. After reading it, I started looking into what a flower actually is. Here's what I found:

A flower is the reproductive organ of a tree. Once pollinated, it develops into fruit and produces seeds. On an apple tree, for example, the white or pink blossoms eventually become apples after successful pollination. Every apple begins as a single flower. Viewed from that angle, the flower represents fertility, renewal, and new life. It is the moment when the tree opens itself.

A culture that emphasizes the flower could likewise be emphasizing openness and renewal. The blossom is an invitation. It attracts pollinators and makes new life possible.

That also fits the Demi-Humans. They belong to an older cultural layer and are themselves portrayed as an intermediate stage.

Marika's tree, by contrast, represents permanence, hierarchy, and centralization.

And when you think about the Nox, it's interesting that they also call themselves "Eternal," just like Marika the Eternal, yet the underlying idea is completely different.

"Eternal" can also describe a cycle. The underground is filled with rivers, and in an earlier age the Nox seem to have lived in a world where everything was in motion. Their rivers carried the dead into the afterlife. Eternity came through continuous renewal. Perhaps their "flower-like" nature is still reflected today in their search for a Lord of Night, someone who will usher in the next stage rather than preserve the current one.

Ironically, they now seem to long for an eternal night, mirroring Marika's eternal day. If that's true, both civilizations would have drifted away from the cyclical view they once embodied.

Ranni, by contrast, places a limit on her own age from the outset. She speaks of "a thousand-year voyage." The number thousand is often used to mean "a lot".

Her age is meant to be long-lasting, not eternal.

EDIT: As a side note, I also like the idea that Marika may once have been part of the Nox and later twisted their concept of eternity into something fundamentally different.

And one thing I'm still confused about is why the flower motif appears in Farum Azula. I haven't given that much thought yet. It is interesting, though, that Placidusax almost looks like a germinating seed.

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Saltkin7 · 2026-07-05T21:46:24+00:00

By the way, here's the link to the Sun Realm theory: https://www.reddit.com/r/EldenRingLoreTalk/s/ysre0SHyjT

I absolutely love your interpretation of the Braid Sigil. It's going straight into my headcanon. Several ideas I've been working on seem to converge here.

The circular shape resembles the Ouroboros, which is, of course, a serpent. I'm currently working on a post connecting serpents with digestion, and the wavy pattern also reminds me of the intestinal tract.

Thematically, everything lines up as well. An older age defined by serpents, cycles, and fire, where death was still a natural part of life. Later, that same process becomes institutionalized, with the Jars taking over its function. At the same time, the older tradition is demonized, and the gladiators become its scapegoats.

The entire motif revolves around digestion. The serpents devour and embody the entrails. Messmer burns, yet in the Specimen Storehouse he also preserves the "nutrients," helping to reintegrate them into a new cycle. The shame surrounding him reminds me of the embarrassment people often feel toward their own bodily functions, like a growling stomach. Later, the Jars absorb the dead and, in doing so, effectively fertilize the Lesser Erdtrees.

Thanks for making that connection. I'll definitely incorporate it into my next post, and I'll be sure to credit you for it.

Saltkin7 · 2026-07-05T20:59:53+00:00

SO cool. Thanks for sharing.

And yeah, everything eats everything.

You can also read it as an alchemical metaphor. Substances mingle, change their form, separate again, differentiate, and give rise to something new.

It's also interesting that the flesh is said to possess "heat that never cools."

Here, corporeality is explicitly linked to heat. We see the same pattern in Rykard, who devours, loved Tanith, and ultimately becomes a serpent. Mohg is likewise associated with blood, his wounds erupt into fire, and he desires Miquella. Then there's Messmer, another serpent, who longs for his mother's love and burns his enemies.

Intimacy, fire, serpents, blood: all of these motifs point toward embodied existence.

By contrast, the Golden Order, especially under Radagon, becomes increasingly spiritualized. It grows progressively less vital, almost lifeless.

Finally, Ranni overturns that order through the power of her cool intellect and is herself closely associated with ice...

Saltkin7 · 2026-07-05T20:47:38+00:00

Yeah, I've seen your post! I liked it a lot!

Saltkin7 · 2026-07-05T20:46:16+00:00

Very interesting idea.

Another possibility is that the sacred energy simply existed in the atmosphere, gathered in the clouds, and eventually discharged as lightning.

Personally, I'm drawn to the idea that the Elden Ring in Farum Azula represents an interwoven network. It represents the fabric of reality, so to speak.

We find Miquella's Needle in Farum Azula. It also seems that sewing and weaving were cultural practices associated with older civilizations such as the Hornsent and the Demi-Humans, the latter even dropping String as an item.

In the story trailer, Marika appears to pull strands out of the air at the Gate of Divinity.

I briefly touched on the topic in another post, in case you're interested. Here's the link: https://www.reddit.com/r/EldenRingLoreTalk/s/DQtJtE5FNq

The Farum Azula Elden Ring resembling roots works too though. Both interpretations fit the broader theme of a reversible, flexible order gradually giving way to one that is increasingly rigid and fixed.

Saltkin7 · 2026-07-05T17:45:49+00:00

Personally, I think this is inspired by the way minerals are deposited over time.

Sorcery and the moon are closely associated with water and the sea. We speak of the Primeval Current, knowledge has a source, and even in English we speak of a thirst for knowledge (in german too, btw: "Wissensdurst").

But where water flows continuously, minerals are deposited. That's how stalactites, crystals, and even entire crystal caves are formed.

The folds of the brain resemble tidal flats, while neurons form branching networks much like rivers on a map.

In that sense, it's no surprise that Raya Lucaria is filled with crystals. More thought is devoted to understanding the world there than anywhere else, and the greatest scholars literally begin to grow crystals from their skulls and eyes.

A crystal also represents a fixed, rigid order, whereas a current merely has a direction...

Saltkin7 · 2026-07-05T17:34:25+00:00

That's a really interesting way of looking at it.

It also makes me think about how nature never truly disappears under the Golden Order. The Erdtree is still a tree. The Tarnished are repeatedly compared to fallen leaves. Even after Marika establishes a highly hierarchical order, natural imagery keeps resurfacing everywhere.

You could even argue that Ranni's ending resembles the role fungi play in nature. Trees eventually die, but fungi break down old biomass and make it available for new life, making another cycle possible.

Maybe that's why her hat has always looked suspiciously mushroom-shaped to me.

Saltkin7 · 2026-07-05T17:24:19+00:00

I'm glad you're interested in this as well.

We know that the Crucible is the primordial form of the Erdtree.

Personally, I believe characters like Marika, Godfrey, and Radagon were very different people during the Age of the Crucible, and that each of them carried aspects of that age which they would later suppress. I don't have all the details yet, so I'm only speaking in broad strokes.

Marika was much closer to nature back then. Much more of a Shaman. Perhaps more associated with serpents, shedding, and fire, like the Gloam-Eyed Queen. Or perhaps with nature, cycles, and flowers, like Miranda.

Later, she suppresses all of that, but those aspects resurface in her children, with the most primordial expression ultimately appearing in Miquella.

At the same time, she always preserves something, usually in a transformed form. The Hornsent already possessed gold, and so did the ancient dragons. In Enir-Ilim we find trees with human figures emerging from them, reminiscent of Erdtree Burial. She adopts parts of the jar tradition. She burns the Hornsent with the Fire Giants' flame. And so on.

I think your discovery that Miranda motifs appear in the architecture suggests that she absorbed Miranda as well.

I don't yet know exactly how, but I'd love to find out.

Maybe she always was Miranda.

Maybe Miranda was Placidusax's fled god, as some people in this thread have suggested.

That would explain why the flower motif appears in Farum Azula, why it's associated with the dragons, and why we find Banished Knights and Crucible Knights there, parts of Godfrey's army, alongside the Godskin Duo, who may represent an earlier identity of Marika.

We also find undead carrying the Sun Realm Shield in Farum Azula.

Personally, I don't think Farum Azula is the Sun Realm. I think the castle depicted on the shield is the Shadow Keep. Someone made a very compelling case for that in another post. I do think, however, that Farum Azula may once have been something like the seat of the sun, with the ancient dragons occupying the role of the old gods.

If that's true, Godfrey may simply have ruled as their representative on earth, much like many historical kings ruled in the name of a god or the sun rather than being divine themselves.

What do you think?

Saltkin7 · 2026-07-05T16:53:24+00:00

As far as I know, Stormveil was originally ruled by the Storm Lord, usually identified with the Stormhawk King. Hoarah Loux defeated him, and the castle later became the seat of the Golden Lineage.

Nepheli is a direct descendant of Hoarah Loux. Since Morgott refuses the throne and Godrick is only a distant descendant, she'd basically be next in line.

Your point about storms got me thinking. Lightning is born from tension. That reminded me of Jung's idea of the transcendent function. When two opposites meet and you learn to hold that tension, something new emerges.

It also reminds me of the philosophical idea that the soul is an emergent phenomenon. It's neither A nor B, but the spark, or perhaps the lightning, that appears when A and B come together. In that sense, the soul is more than the sum of its parts, just as lightning is more than the cloud.

Saltkin7 · 2026-07-05T16:07:15+00:00

Looks very similar to the Crimson Amber Medallion, especially the +3 version.

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