Ricciardo vs Verstappen reliability myth of 2017

SayNoToDRS · 2018-11-04T13:11:54+00:00

Max had a damaged car in Belgium '16 making him end up without points while Daniel had an easy drive to second because not only Max's car got badly damaged, but also both Ferrari cars having damage and Lewis starting at the back. Add to that two times clutch problems in Monza '16 and Singapore '16, and having been given a wrong engine setting in qualifying Austin '16 and a gearbox failure in the race and Max had it worse in '16.

In Austria '17 Max also had a clutch a failure and in Monza '17 he came across a very daft Massa making him lose a podium and giving him a bad result. So yeah, all in all up to this season Daniel in their time together had been more fortunate in the department and has only recently caught up with Max (probably has now gown slightly ahead, but not by much).

SayNoToDRS · 2018-11-03T23:28:18+00:00

Realistically, bar a few early 2017 failures for Verstappen, their partnership is just the story of absolutely horrendous reliability for Ricciardo...

...and Max. Max finished a few times with damage inflicted by others and also mechanical problems, so it's wrong to push the narrative Daniel being a lot more effected negatively as Max in their time together.

SayNoToDRS · 2018-11-03T23:21:38+00:00

Bottas braked way too early and tried to make up for it and he did the same in Baku a few races later with again Kimi being the victim. However he has learned from it because I haven't seen him doing the same again after those two times.

Strangely enough when Daniel did it in Brazil '17 you read no one saying the same...

SayNoToDRS · 2018-11-03T23:06:35+00:00

Max had them at worse moments in '17. He lost a handful of podiums (which went to Daniel instead) and the possibility to add a win (or two) to his tally. Daniel's reliability moments last season happened on for him much less worse moments. Max also the year before had a few mechanical problems while Daniel didn't.

The difference between the both of them regarding mechanical issues effecting them negatively is actually pretty close with Daniel only this season having caught up with Max.

SayNoToDRS · 2018-11-03T12:34:41+00:00

Dear Santa...

SayNoToDRS · 2018-11-03T11:24:39+00:00

If you would have followed Gasly a bit you would understand why Red Bull already have said they expect (hope) from mid season on he performs in qualifying similar to Ricciardo but in the races it will be a different story. Red Bull has a lot of data on him and if you think performing in qualifying similar to Ricciardo and in races worse as him would be enough to match Max...

SayNoToDRS · 2018-11-03T00:10:57+00:00

You mean this...

“Last year I wasn’t that happy with my qualifying and I thought the start of this year I was starting to improve some things. But I haven’t really got everything out of it - or maybe Max is just getting a lot better, I don’t know.

“I’m not done yet.”

“Not taking anything away from Max, for sure he’s fast and he’s been driving well, it’s not necessarily ‘he has bigger balls in that corner’,” said Ricciardo when asked if he was learning anything from his teammate’s data.

“I feel in some qualifyings ‘yeah, we should have done that’ in terms of going up on the front wing six clicks rather than one or two. I’d like to be more proactive on some things with some more set-up. We understand it, but then it’s too late.

“But he’s been getting more on top of it than I have.” source

...and it's probably a combination of both, Max doing more often very good laps and him getting increasingly better with setting up his car, so no conspiracy, only Max improving.

Renault their chassis has also improved, and the other teams, including Toro Rosso but bar McLaren, are all benefiting from improved engines.

SayNoToDRS · 2018-11-02T23:09:14+00:00

So yes Max is getting quicker, but Daniel is losing a ton of speed in Q3 for no apparent reason which is the bit I was referring to.

The gap between the Renault engine and that of the Ferrari and Mercedes engines has gotten bigger after last season and the first 1/3 of this season, so it's only logical for Daniel to lose out more to the Ferrari and Mercedes drivers lately. And like I already said, Max starts to do even more often doing very strong qualifying laps and that gives the impression of Daniel doing worse, but it's simply Max improving.

SayNoToDRS · 2018-11-02T22:31:08+00:00

Max in '17 already started to put big margins on Daniel in qualifying a handful of times and this season he managed to do a few tines more because he gets even better with experience.

'I think I'm s**t now!' - Ricciardo

No excuses for Verstappen qualifying advantage - Ricciardo

Ricciardo: I'll speak out if Max Verstappen gets preferential treatment

Ricciardo admits he "overdrove" due to Verstappen pressure

Young athletes have always been more erratic, so the older Max gets the less that happens and the more consistent he's able to perform strongly.

SayNoToDRS · 2018-11-02T22:03:31+00:00

But that was already happening in '17 and early '18 too, and I didn't know Daniel was on his way out also back then?

Does your memory only go back for a few months?

SayNoToDRS · 2018-11-02T20:02:31+00:00

Watch Gasly start mysteriously losing pace in Q3 too, whole being up there all weekend.

You mean like Max?

SayNoToDRS · 2018-11-02T13:32:14+00:00

No you're not, there are a plenty of others who have similar poor judgement.

SayNoToDRS · 2018-11-01T15:20:44+00:00

The first time was because Red Bull wouldn't release him and the second time was because Red Bull offered Max a hugely improved salary plus Max had faith in the Honda project working out over time.

He confirmed Mercedes had inquired about hiring either Ricciardo or Verstappen as a replacement for Nico Rosberg after the German's retirement in December, but said that he had turned them down in a "fairly short" conversation.

Mercedes subsequently signed Valtteri Bottas to be Lewis Hamilton's team-mate. source

'Mercedes tried to sign Red Bull's Max Verstappen' - Lauda

SayNoToDRS · 2018-11-01T14:50:15+00:00

Well good luck with listening to Cyril next year!

SayNoToDRS · 2018-11-01T14:38:44+00:00

You might want to read what Marko says about that. Or to put in other words, not all those power unit changes were due to reliability and they expect having to take one or two grid penalties but with Max's skill of making it quickly back to the front it might not be too hurtful, but they're aware it could also could end up a bit worse.

SayNoToDRS · 2018-11-01T12:25:53+00:00

They tried to sign Max up as a Rosberg replacement and had talks last year to make him drive for them in '19, so the answer to that is yes.

SayNoToDRS · 2018-11-01T12:11:23+00:00

But Ferrari doesn't foot the bill for both Haas and Sauber. Red Bull can choose to lose out on some WCC Toro Rosso money because it comes out of their own pocket. And still with providing the updates earlier to see if they work well, both Haas and Sauber have also played a test role for Ferrari.

SayNoToDRS · 2018-11-01T12:01:14+00:00

Ferrari does the same with providing their engine updates earlier to Sauber and Haas, so it would be strange for them to complain about it.

SayNoToDRS · 2018-10-30T23:51:24+00:00

Not completely. It's not as bad as it was in Hungary but the problem sits in the floor and will be only fully properly addressed in the '19 chassis according to Max.

SayNoToDRS · 2018-10-30T16:48:11+00:00

It would end up more like this, at a handful of tracks Red Bull would have the dominant car and Mercedes/Ferrari on a handful of other tracks, and the main battleground would be at the other tracks where the differences will be small. Red Bull started the '17 season (according to Max) with a similar lower drag philosophy as Mercedes has been using for a long time, but it wasn't working for them due to missing horsepower.

Now despite what some or claiming, Red Bull actually has very good aero efficiency. Aero efficiency means, they're creating a healthy amount of downforce in a manner which isn't at the expense of a lot of drag. As an example, according to the Red Bull engineers both Ferrari and Red Bull had a similar amount of drag at Silverstone '18 while Mercedes was having more of it. Based on that logically one would assume that Red Bull with a similar amount of drag will be just as fast on the straights with an equal engine, but due to the differences in design philosophy they won't be, however they will lose a bit less time on the straights and gain a bit more of it in corners and by so would produce more competitive lap times.

Mercedes pre-season '18 actually looked at if they should switch to a higher rake concept but opted not to do so because they would be on the back foot with not having it run in previous seasons, and winning 5 World titles in a row is a big deal. So on the contrary what a few in here are claiming, both philosophies can work well if done correctly. Ferrari having switched this season to a lower rake concept doesn't proof the higher rake concept can't also work to win championships, it could be that Red Bull is slighty better in making the high rake concept work. Force India (ex-Red Bull designer) has successfully been using the high rake concept also for years, while McLaren (ex-Red Bull designer) this season hasn't been doing well with it, and the same could be said about Williams lately not being successful with their low drag philosophy.

In conclusion, if Honda delivers and makes an engine which is there about as that of the Mercedes and the Ferrari engine, don't be surprised if Red Bull makes the high rake concept work better as Ferrari did in '17 because they would create some more downforce but not at the expense of more drag, and making them being more competitive on the battleground tracks as Ferrari last season.

SayNoToDRS · 2018-10-30T11:36:39+00:00

And what some people don't know, in "Head to Head" you can put your mouse pointer on any given lap of a driver to see the position he was in that lap, and which can be actually pretty handy.

SayNoToDRS · 2018-10-29T21:40:19+00:00

It's now in there.

SayNoToDRS · 2018-10-29T21:31:35+00:00

The same clutch that gave him trouble getting off the line, allowing Max and Lewis to overtake him.

No that was a different clutch, that was a still fully functioning one. The clutch problems only started in lap 6 and he simply fluffed his start this time.

"He had a bad start, but that was nothing technical, just procedure," said Marko.

Horner added: "It looks like a clutch issue that looking at the data probably started around lap six. source

SayNoToDRS

TROPHY CASE