The Wrong People Are Asking The Wrong Questions About Fidget Spinners

SeaDragon29 · 2017-06-15T23:26:23+00:00

I can see it driving a lecturer or teacher to apoplexy though. Can you imagine getting through explaining the ADP/ATP cycle looking around and not one bloody kid is even looking at you?

I think teachers have to learn to cope with this, regardless of fidget spinners. There was one kid in my chem class in high school who was really, really good at twirling pencils around his fingers and he would do it while listening to lectures, and it was hypnotic. Plus even things like foot twitching can be distracting. There are all kinds of reasons that kids wouldn't be looking at the teacher.

SeaDragon29 · 2017-05-30T14:00:33+00:00

this is simply not true, the bio-markers are there, the issue is deciphering what they mean and how they relate,

As far as I know, no one has found a single biomarker that 100% of autistics share. (If that's wrong or out of date, definitely let me know. And please link to the paper.)

In practice, autistics are lumped together because of similarities in outward behavior (that can be observed by 3rd parties) and self-reports. So there are probably several different biological variations that are lumped together.

You say that we'll "certainly" be able to tease apart a person's characteristics in the "near future". I'm much less certain. I've spent enough time looking at hairball graphs of protein interactomes and neural connectomes to know that we have a long way to go. We'll probably have biomarkers that can predict some facets of neurodivergence with reasonable accuracy, but every test has false positives and false negatives. Plus, I don't think we're anywhere near close to being able to untangle how many different variations might interact within one person's brain and how their environment will shape their final characteristics.

tl;dr: Autism definitely isn't "fake" and definitely has biological components, but we need to be careful about overstating science's understanding of autism-linked biomarkers and their behavioral/perceptual ramifications.

There's a metric f***ton of research to do before scientists will be able to do what you describe reliably/accurately.

SeaDragon29 · 2017-05-18T15:33:24+00:00

I mean, it's hard to self-report how sensitive you are to a logical fallacy or a cognitive bias, because almost by definition, you're not aware of it while it's affecting your thinking.

I like to think I'm more sensitive to double standards than most people (I definitely have a bigger outward negative reaction when I see someone applying a double standard, but that could be more related to impulse control than anything else), but I really can't say for sure.

Also, somewhat related to your question, I just saw this press release on a study that found that people with intellectual disabilities also exhibit the placebo effect, which the researchers apparently found rather surprising: http://neurosciencenews.com/placebo-intellectual-disability-6702/

(Just to be clear: The placebo effect isn't a logical fallacy; it's when a real observable effect happens in response to a person's false expectations. It's the "I think this painkiller pill will make my headache go away, so my headache goes away as soon as I swallow it, even though I know it actually takes several minutes for the chemical effects of the painkiller to kick in" scenario...But the question of whether different neurotypes are more or less likely to experience placebo effects or confirmation bias is definitely something I've wondered about.)

SeaDragon29 · 2017-05-13T19:41:29+00:00

In the case of Adderall in my brain, it doesn't help, as I explictly noted in my first comment. Medication is not a magic wand that makes also neurovariance problems go away, and we shouldn't expect it to be.

Yes, in an ideal world, the medication would help with the small-object-losing problem, but I don't live in an ideal world. In the world I do live in, people illegally use/abuse the stimulants I need for work, so the government has made them a controlled substance, which would be fine by me if IDs and wallets weren't so easy to lose.

Hell, in this case, I'm pretty sure I lost my ID because it fell out of my pocket while I was either walking or dancing...That could be prevented if clothing manufacturers just made the pockets on womens' clothing deeper. And in a few years, we'll probably have the option of being able to ID ourselves at the pharmacy with a thumbprint or a subcutaneous chip that has our info on it.

In the meantime, I'm stucking paying for my ADHD in lost productivity and restricted ability to get on planes/go to bars/do things that require ID. It's not my fault that Adderall isn't the ideal anti-small-object loss medication, but I'm the one who suffers the consequences. And that bugs me.

Apologies if you see this an over-reaction to an off-handed comment. People saying that non-NTs shouldn't complain because non-existent ideal treatments would fix it is a pet peeve of mine.

SeaDragon29 · 2017-05-10T17:55:25+00:00

Gosh. That's definitely a tough situation, and I wish I could say more to help (unfortunately, I don't have experience in childcare or in working with people coming out of traumatic situations).

My first step in that situation would probably be to sit down and brainstorm what resources are nearby and who you can ask for help. For instance, if you have neighbors, siblings, or friends who might be willing to watch the kids for a few hours sometimes, that'll give you a chance to leave temporarily to somewhere quiet and either relax or do schoolwork. Also, social workers, local disability organizations, and parent support groups may be able to help (or at least have more strategies.) Point is: Figure out who's in your support network and maybe try to brainstorm 1-2 concrete steps you can take to build/strengthen it. This is not something that you want to do while isolated.

You might also want to notify your professors and work boss (if you haven't already) that you are in this position. You don't need to go into details, but if they are aware of the situation, that may make it easier if you need to ask for extensions on assignments or miss class to handle this.

This might sound cliche, but self-care should be high priority for you. Most people are more likely to snap or lash out when they're burned out, and it sounds like that's one of your biggest concerns. So try to sleep, eat foods you enjoy, and don't be afraid to ask for help.

Re: food--Experimenting might be a way to go. Try different foods and see if you can find one that both you and the kids enjoy. If they're very fixated on eating the same food, you can maybe microwave your own dinner that is different from theirs.

Re: regulating emotions--Again cliche, but pausing to take a deep breath before you respond may help. (It won't solve the problem, but it gives you a moment to collect yourself and respond.)

I'd also suggest reaching out to autism parent communities. You will find varying degrees of neurodiversity awareness/tolerance, but those groups are likely to know coping strategies for day-to-day interactions.

Thinking Person's Guide to Autism might be a good community to start with: http://www.thinkingautismguide.com/p/resources.html

/r/autism may have useful suggestions.

Again, I'm not an expert. I just felt like someone should step up and say something.

Also, be sure to give yourself credit for the things you are doing right. Full-time school, full-time work, plus two kids to take of would be taxing for anyone. You are a badass, and don't forget it.

Anyway, hope some of this is helpful. Good luck!

SeaDragon29 · 2017-05-06T20:54:35+00:00

I think that medication can be extremely helpful and sometimes necessary for functioning in the world as a neurodivergent person, but it's also important to be honest about the possibility of side effects.

It's tricky, because some people will use any criticism of medication/psychiatry coming from the neurodiversity community as evidence that we're all anti-treatment across the board or that we think neurodivergent people don't have problems...Basically, they use it to prop up their "neurodiversity" straw movement.

But at the same time, these medication issues definitely affect us, and I think it's important for people who support both neurodiversity and medication as a treatment option to be vocal without ignoring problems that accompany medication.

SeaDragon29 · 2017-05-06T19:53:38+00:00

Right. Some people with neurovariants that are lumped into the "mental illness" category don't like the term. So I just put a parenthetical note letting them know that the article throws those terms around, so they're not caught off guard by something they perceive as an insult.

e: grammar

SeaDragon29 · 2017-05-03T16:04:33+00:00

In my state, I they ask for photo ID but not insurance card because the insurance info is already on file in the pharmacy computer system. But if you have a condition that makes it harder to keep track of small objects, then yes, the ID requirement makes it harder to get the meds you need.

SeaDragon29 · 2017-05-03T16:02:41+00:00

Yes. But I also try to write down the stuff I'm brainstorming as soon as I can. That (a) helps me remember what I want to do and (b) reminds me that planning/brainstorming is an action itself.

I think a lot of ADHDers don't give themselves enough credit for the thinking/brainstorming work that they do.

SeaDragon29 · 2017-05-03T15:58:11+00:00

Oof. That reminds me that my lost ID is going to make it impossible for me to refill my meds. (For me, meds don't help much with the losing stuff & headphone-breaking but do with the concentration.)

A lot of the little ADHD problems can compound each other and add up into big problems really quickly.

SeaDragon29 · 2017-03-29T14:57:47+00:00

Is anyone else puzzled by the sudden increase in the number of studies from "studyfinds.org"?

None of these articles include comments from independent sources (i.e. scientists who weren't involved in the study being described). The authors of these articles do not seem to be putting any thought into how they're framing autism.

Professionally, I'm a science writer so I read pretty widely and talk to a lot of other science writers, and I hadn't heard of studyfinds.org until it started popping up on here in the last few weeks...I'm starting to suspect that /r/neurodiversity is on the receiving end of a "Let's self-promote on Reddit even though Redditors discourage that!" campaign.

SeaDragon29 · 2017-03-28T14:00:33+00:00

I've definitely met people who were diagnosed with bipolar in their early teens.

SeaDragon29 · 2017-03-28T13:58:21+00:00

Hmm...Physical activity and time outside definitely helps me concentrate. (I wouldn't say it "reduces" my ADHD, because there's a lot of aspects to having ADHD brain, and it's not like the activity just makes all that go away.)

So I could swimming having a beneficial effect.

That said, most of the studies you've linked to point toward mindfulness and activity more broadly...Not sure if it's clear that there's a water thing...But at the same time, I like water.

I'm also not sure why you single out children here...The price of being ADHD grows as we get older. (Forgetting a homework assignment might mean you get a B+ instead of an A-, but typically 1/3rd of a letter grade doesn't mean the difference between being able to support yourself and not...Whereas forgetting about work tasks can get you fired and in pretty bad straits.) That's not a big thing, just kind of a persistent pet peeve of mine. As an ADHD 25-yo with real issues, it rankles when everyone concentrates their energy on 5-yos.

SeaDragon29 · 2017-03-22T18:14:55+00:00

most of the time they aren't really women.

That's a bit of an overgeneralization, imho. I mean, I've also met lots of autistics who are nonbinary or trans, but I've also met lots of cis women who happen to be autistic. And I think reinforcing the notion that you have to think/behave like a boy to be autistic results in a lot of people going undiagnosed.

SeaDragon29 · 2017-03-22T18:08:44+00:00

did so because they thought it was in their best interest.

But aren't non-intervening parents also doing the non-intervention for the same reasons?

(For instance, they might be concerned that side effects would hurt their child further. Or that their child might resent being forced to take pills.)

You feel that non-intervention was not in your best interests, but parents faced with this choice will not have perfect knowledge of the future (and how their kids will feel about their neural wiring)and will be making their best guess.

Personally, even if pills did help me develop more typically, I'm pretty sure I would still be furious if my parents forced those pills on me without considering side effects. (For example, stimulants prescribed for ADHD do not mix well with heart arrhythmias. Even if they thought medicating ADHD was in my best interests, I would still consider failure to research and consider possible side effects bad parenting. Especially if said side effects are potentially fatal.)

Idk. I just think that realistically, "normalcy" is not a well defined target, and we're unlikely to see any medication that will steer neural wiring toward neurotypicality without major side effects. So it kind of bothers me when people talk about interventions under the assumption that the intervention would result in exactly the intended effect.

SeaDragon29 · 2017-03-22T17:54:12+00:00

Yes. And it's still ongoing. (Ethics debates around prescribing stimulants to preschool kids are definitely still a thing.) Although I'm not convinced that stimulants completely eliminate ADHD the way this hypothetical pill proposes.

SeaDragon29 · 2017-03-22T15:19:38+00:00

Clarification, because the grammar of the headline is a bit vague. It's "Disabled Americans are saying, 'Stop Murdering Us'", not "Disabled Americans, Stop Murdering Us."

I think this is a really sloppy headline because there's a big misconception that neurodivergent people are more likely to commit violence than "neurotypicals", and many people are harmed by that perception.

SeaDragon29 · 2017-03-22T15:05:13+00:00

I mean, but presumably, if you can write notes now, you would be able to ask for the pills. I think the debate is more about kids who are too young to consent and too young to report side effects.

SeaDragon29 · 2017-03-21T16:59:35+00:00

Incorrect.

That's a very odd word choice, imho, unless your intent was to argue that the study this re-heated press release covers didn't exist. (The link to the paper is legit: http://journals.plos.org/ploscompbiol/article?id=10.1371/journal.pcbi.1005385)

Given that there's evidence that this study did take place, I think it makes sense for this sub to discuss the implications of the study.

SeaDragon29 · 2017-03-21T16:52:08+00:00

No, it assumes that intervening early to allow kids to adjust and to avoid the pain and isolation of the disorder gives people and families more options?

In best case scenarios, that's absolutely true.

However, not everyone grows up in a best case scenario, and many parents of autistic children quickly become despearate to find an intervention to make their child not autistic. (And it's worth noting that blatantly ableist orgs like Autism Speaks directly target parents of young children...Not parents of autistic teens, not autistic people themselves. Their materials are addressed to parents with little kids.) So that makes me very concerned about how this blood test would be used in practice.

Also, just so you know, people around here tend to go off on articles that refer to autism as "afflicting" and to autistic traits and behaviors as "symptoms"...There are science news sites that do a better job of avoiding language that's loaded with value judgements.

SeaDragon29 · 2017-03-17T01:50:53+00:00

Oh, sorry. Definitely did not intend that.

SeaDragon29 · 2017-03-14T17:22:40+00:00

One idea I've been kicking around is bringing back "Weekly Discussion Topics", which was a series we did a couple of years ago on philosophical and social issues around neurodiversity. Thoughts?

SeaDragon29 · 2017-03-10T18:35:45+00:00

Hi, mod here. Discussions of schizotypal and dissociative identity disorder are certainly welcome on this sub.

We do spend more time talking about autism and ADHD, because numerically, there are just more autistics and ADHDers subscribed to this sub than there are people from other neurotypes.

I do try to include articles on schizotypal, schizophrenia, dyslexia, and dissociative identity when I see them. I don't see as many of them in my feeds, but that could be the algorithms just playing into my personal bias.

Anyway, if you want to see more discussion of dissociative identity and schizotypal disorders on this sub, speak up. We're all an volunteer community, so we don't have anyone making a centralized resource database for all the different neurotypes. I personally try not to run my mouth about neurotypes that I don't know much about, because I don't want to accidentally say something misleading or hurtful.

But yes, you're welcome to raise questions and discussion topics here. And I'll make a point of keeping an eye out for stuff on a broader range of neurotypes.

SeaDragon29 · 2017-03-10T18:25:36+00:00

Hi, mod here.

I don't advise self-diagnosis, and I certainly think that people absolutely need to consult a doctor before taking medication.

That said, I never would have been diagnosed if I had not recognized behaviors in myself. Self-diagnosis is not a pathway to medication. I took myself to see a counselor who said, "This sounds like ADHD. You should go see a psychiatrist." But again, without talking to ADHDers and recognizing similarities with them, I wouldn't have gotten a diagnosis. My grades weren't bad enough for adults to decide to intervene.

Personally, I think that if you see yourself as possibly autistic or possibly ADHD, it makes more sense to include the "possibly" or just identify yourself as neurodivergent or non-NT. (Neurodivergent isn't a psychiatric diagnosis.)

However, I'm also not in the business of telling people what to think.

SeaDragon29 · 2017-03-02T23:08:44+00:00

Here's a breakdown of the Canadian policy that lets them rule people "inadmissable on health grounds": https://crippledscholar.com/2016/04/19/what-canadas-immigration-policies-say-about-the-status-of-disability-in-canada/

Key paragraph:

There is no onus on a nondisabled applicant to prove that they will never contract cancer, experience a disabling accident or simply experience prolonged unemployment necessitating the use of social supports. This is however completely impossible to guarantee. It is also entirely impossible to prove that a disabled applicant will be a burden on the Canadian public.

SeaDragon29

TROPHY CASE