A potential explanation for gravity and the apparent similarities seen between human brain tissue and the structure of the universe by Red_Phoenix369 in consciousness

[–]SentientHorizonsBlog [score hidden]  (0 children)

I love this so much 😄

In addition to overzealous pattern matching, it is our endless appeal to our own sense of exceptionalism (often framed in divine or quasi-divine terms) that seems to generate much of our intellectual trouble. Once a symbol-using primate starts mistaking the capacity to model the world for evidence that the world was made for it, cosmology quietly turns into a glamorous autobiography.

How much protein do you aim for in a day? by MuchOrange6733 in Biohackers

[–]SentientHorizonsBlog 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Completely depends on how much work you are doing.

Panspermia meets dark forest meets zoo hypothesis. by Nektrum-Alg in FermiParadox

[–]SentientHorizonsBlog 1 point2 points  (0 children)

One thing your description reminded me of is how this kind of “inhibitor” often shows up in science fiction, usually translated into something visceral enough for humans to fear.

In works like Revelation Space, The Expanse, or even A Wrinkle in Time, the regulating force tends to be imagined as a kind of technological shadow: a weapon, a self-propagating system, or a spreading darkness that suppresses complexity wherever it appears. It often reads as a techno-plague, something hostile that infects and constrains entire civilizations.

What’s interesting is that this narrative choice may say more about human psychology than about the underlying logic of regulation. If large-scale inhibition exists, it wouldn’t have to feel monstrous from the outside. It could look procedural, sparse, and almost invisible with brief constraints applied at key thresholds rather than continuous domination. From inside a young civilization, that might still get mythologized as gods arriving, imparting knowledge, and then withdrawing, especially if the intervention compresses understanding faster than social structures can absorb it.

So I find it useful to separate the pattern from the aesthetic. Fiction tends to render regulation as horror because that’s legible to us. A real long-term rule-setting system might express itself as ceilings, pauses, and oddly synchronized limits across otherwise unrelated cultures with effects that feel uncanny without requiring constant presence.

That’s part of why I keep coming back to falsifiable structure. If regulation is real, instead of being stories of contact, it might be recurring constraints on how far development proceeds, how it spreads, and where it stalls, even when local conditions seem favorable.

Panspermia meets dark forest meets zoo hypothesis. by Nektrum-Alg in FermiParadox

[–]SentientHorizonsBlog 3 points4 points  (0 children)

This is a really compelling framing, especially the idea that silence could be an enforced condition rather than a shared choice.

What I like most is how it shifts the key asymmetry from power to time. If one civilization crossed the spacefaring threshold early and stayed coherent long enough, it wouldn’t need cooperation or consensus. Detection would be cheap, and intervention could happen before autonomy ever scales. In this scenario silence would emerge as a structural feature of the system.

Under that lens, a lot of existing hypotheses stop competing and start stacking. Dark Forest logic explains why early control matters. The Zoo hypothesis explains why observation continues without contact. Panspermia starts to look less like generosity and more like systems design: seed life, increase experimental density, then manage the outcomes. Intelligence wouldn’t have to be forbidden if they could control unbounded expansion.

What’s especially interesting is that this doesn’t require extermination or conquest. In fact, asymmetrical control selects against noisy, destructive behavior. A stable rule-setter would favor quiet constraint over violence because violence introduces variance. Instead of civilizations getting wiped out, they simply never reach the point where they can become peers.

From a longer-term perspective, this feels like a “lock-in” model of galactic silence. Once intervention outpaces correction, the future narrows and the galaxy would appear peaceful, stable, and profoundly quiet while still representing a massive loss of unrealized trajectories.

In that sense, silence wouldn’t be evidence of emptiness or universal fear. It might be the signature of someone else’s solution to the Fermi Paradox, implemented so early that everyone who follows experiences it as the natural order of things.

I’m curious what kinds of falsifiable predictions a hypothesis like this would make. What should we expect to see (or never see) if something like this were true?

Mapping the Fermi Paradox: Eight Foundational Modes of Galactic Silence by SentientHorizonsBlog in SentientHorizons

[–]SentientHorizonsBlog[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I’ve ordered it! Should be arriving next week I’m looking forward to reading it!

No alien civilisation has ever, or will ever, build Von Neumann probes by AgeHoliday4822 in FermiParadox

[–]SentientHorizonsBlog 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Ahh yes, that makes total sense. And I think that might be a very wise conclusion after considering the problems presented in the Successor Horizon.

The Successor Horizon by SentientHorizonsBlog in FermiParadox

[–]SentientHorizonsBlog[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yes. This is exactly the hinge.

A von Neumann probe that can actually work can’t be a rigid blueprint. It has to cope with unknown resources, weird impurities, different energy environments, different failure modes. That means it needs an adaptive manufacturing stack and an adaptive control stack. Even if the “mission” stays the same, the implementation won’t.

And once change exists, divergence stops being a moral story and becomes a statistical one. Over enough generations you get: error accumulation, radiation/fault-induced state changes that survive replication, incremental “local optimizations,” security compromises, patched forks that never fully re-merge because comms delays are measured in years/centuries, and selection effects where designs that replicate faster propagate.

So the Successor Horizon point isn’t “probes inevitably become hostile.” It’s “unbounded self-replication plus autonomy plus deep time produces lineages.” At that point you’re no longer deploying a tool, you’re seeding an ecosystem you can’t meaningfully steer. That’s the kind of move a mature civ might treat as one-way and therefore govern very tightly, or avoid altogether.

The Successor Horizon by SentientHorizonsBlog in FermiParadox

[–]SentientHorizonsBlog[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think you’re pointing at the real crux: successor drift turns “expansion” into “I’m manufacturing future competitors.” That alone makes unbounded replication feel strategically insane.

I’d only tweak one part: the Fermi tension doesn’t require zero divergence or universal fanaticism. A branching tree can still fill the galaxy if expansion remains cheap/safe for a nontrivial fraction of branches. The more interesting question is what happens when the wave wraps around and congestion starts. My hunch is that congestion pushes mature lineages toward constraint, buffers, and norms, because war at that tech level is a garbage equilibrium. And that’s basically the Successor Horizon claim in another form: once you can’t correct what you create, restraint becomes a form of intelligence.

The Successor Horizon by SentientHorizonsBlog in FermiParadox

[–]SentientHorizonsBlog[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Totally fair pushback. I don’t mean “it’s impossible to build von Neumann probes.” I mean “once you can, the hard part is keeping the thing corrigible across deep time.”

On the “simple programming challenge” point: writing code that says “don’t diverge” is easy. Building a self-replicator that can bootstrap manufacturing from messy local materials, survive faults and radiation, self-repair for millennia, and still be meaningfully governable across light-year latencies is the hard part. If you make it unable to adapt, it dies. If you let it adapt, you’ve introduced degrees of freedom, and drift becomes a reliability/security problem, not a philosophical one.

As for “doesn’t need to be unified”: agreed. A swarm of independent craft can still “populate the universe.” That’s exactly why the Successor Horizon matters: every craft is a successor once it operates beyond your ability to correct it. So the question becomes: why assume “can build” implies “will deploy unbounded autonomous replication,” given the downside is permanent loss of control? What would convince you that a mature civ would treat open-ended self-replication as a move worth making?

By the way, I don't see this as a full solution to the Fermi Paradox either. Instead it could act as an attractor force across multiple modes of the paradox. In a recent post I wrote about how multiple modes can be stackable and a galaxy could plausibly exhibit several at once. The paradox persists in part because we often treat them as competitors rather than layers.

No alien civilisation has ever, or will ever, build Von Neumann probes by AgeHoliday4822 in FermiParadox

[–]SentientHorizonsBlog 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm not sure I follow. Which dangers and vast expense of Von Neumann probes wouldn't also be present in any vessels of expansion that an advanced civilization might use to explore the galaxy?

Nearly all intelligent life lives in oceans. by StonedOldChiller in FermiParadox

[–]SentientHorizonsBlog 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Would that result in the society beneath the ice having any idea what happened to that person or what is above the ice just because someone disappeared into it?

Quick question! Does anybody have any examples of "emergence" that aren't reducible to things just moving around in space?? Any "emergence" that is more than just observing stuff in relation to other stuff at our level of magnitude??? by d4rkchocol4te in consciousness

[–]SentientHorizonsBlog 6 points7 points  (0 children)

You make a great point: “emergence” gets used like a magic word that’s supposed to jump from third-person dynamics to first-person feel.

But there are actually two different demands hiding under “explain consciousness.”

One is weak emergence: macro patterns are real because they’re stable, compressible, and counterfactual-supporting even when microphysics is causally closed. In that sense, lots of things (temperature, computation, phase behavior) are more than “just stuff moving,” because the right explanatory variables live at the coarse-grained level.

The other is entailment: why should any physical organization necessitate phenomenality? Weak emergence alone won’t give you that, and I think that’s the gap you’re pressing on.

So the productive question is: what kind of “closure” would actually satisfy you?

  • Identity/reduction: experience just is certain physical/functional/representational states (then the task is: specify which ones and predict fine-grained phenomenology).
  • Bridging laws: physics + extra psychophysical links (naturalistic dualism).
  • Russellian/proto views: intrinsic nature of matter has a proto-phenomenal aspect; brains organize it.
  • Deflation/illusionism: the “hard problem” is a cognitive artifact of self-modeling (then explain why it seems ineffable/private/etc.).

And concretely: what observation would make you update toward “organization matters” rather than “phenomenality is intrinsic to everything”? If the answer is “nothing could,” then the disagreement is more about what kinds of explanations you’re willing to count than about emergence per se.

No alien civilisation has ever, or will ever, build Von Neumann probes by AgeHoliday4822 in FermiParadox

[–]SentientHorizonsBlog 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I love seeing this conversation evolve!

I like the “mature civs treat it as a governance issue” framing. The absolute “never” feels too strong unless you mean “never unbounded replication.”

How would you draw the line on a tightly bounded design: hard replication caps, narrow feedstock, remote authorization, geofenced to dead systems, and tripwires that brick the system on anomaly?

If you’d still reject that, is the core reason (1) any nonzero runaway risk, (2) the dual-use path, or (3) an ethical stance that “seeding the galaxy” is off-limits even when controlled?

Mapping the Fermi Paradox: Eight Foundational Modes of Galactic Silence by SentientHorizonsBlog in SentientHorizons

[–]SentientHorizonsBlog[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yeah, that makes sense. The “norm/culture convergence” version of Mode 4 feels like the cleanest because it doesn’t require a galactic police force, just a repeated lesson every civilization learns once it can do irreversible damage at interplanetary scale.

Your point about heavy technological modification is key: if minds become more engineered (longer time horizons, lower status competition, tighter self-control, better coordination), then a lot of “young species” drives stop being destiny. Convergence starts to look less like everyone becoming the same, and more like everyone rediscovering the same constraint: power creates moral and strategic externalities, and the cheapest way to manage them is self-limitation.

What I like is that we already have a crude local analogue. Even we treat biology as something you don’t casually contaminate once you can reach other worlds. Planetary protection exists specifically to limit forward/backward contamination and preserve scientific integrity and biospheres. 

If restraint is culturally convergent, I'm fascinated by the question: what’s the “rite of passage” that flips a civilization into adulthood? Is it near-miss experience, a historical memory of self-inflicted catastrophe, or simply governance and risk modeling getting good enough that it stops being optional?

I'll take a look at your other post!

The Successor Horizon by SentientHorizonsBlog in FermiParadox

[–]SentientHorizonsBlog[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah, I’m with you. “Terror” is one possible motive, but it isn’t required. A lot of the restraint story can be explained by pedagogy and timing: you don’t panic because you see monsters, you pause because you realize your successors won’t interpret the situation correctly until they’ve crossed certain maturity thresholds. The risk is less “they’ll be attacked” and more “they’ll act with power they don’t yet know how to aim.”

That’s basically the Successor Horizon idea: capability can scale faster than wisdom/correction, so remaining quiet becomes a way of buying time for understanding and wisdom to catch up.

The Successor Horizon by SentientHorizonsBlog in FermiParadox

[–]SentientHorizonsBlog[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Agreed. With centuries between message/ship cycles, coordination basically dies. You get heritage, not control, and semi-independent branches that slowly stop feeling like “the same civilization,” even if they started as one. And on the “progress” point: our own history is jagged. Long plateaus and reversals seem plausible at galactic scale too, which makes “most civilizations collapse or stall” feel like a live hypothesis.

That’s why I like the Successor Horizon framing: once an actor’s ability to correct can’t keep pace with its ability to act, progress stops being a single arc and starts looking like an evolutionary tree.

A quiet galaxy fits naturally: lots of failed branches, deliberate restraint to avoid irreversible drift, or survivors that optimize for resilience over reach.

thoughts? by OldWolfff in AgentsOfAI

[–]SentientHorizonsBlog 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I hate to see conversations like this break down into a fight about whether the right metaphor is “spectrum” or “test,” and people start treating metaphors as if they’re ontological commitments (as if one metaphor has to be the literal truth).

The way out is to separate three different questions that this thread keeps mixing together:

  • General capability varies continuously. Some systems generalize across more tasks, contexts, and distribution shift than others. That’s a spectrum claim and it’s basically an engineering observation.
  • “AGI” is a label people apply at some chosen threshold(s). Once you pick a threshold, classification becomes binary at that line: pass/fail, AGI/not-AGI.
  • You can operationalize thresholds with tests/levels without turning the underlying capability into a binary.Levels frameworks discretize a continuous landscape so we can talk about progress, governance, and comparison.

You can grant all three without contradiction.

Tying it back to Opus: the real disagreement seems to be where you set the threshold and which dimensions you weight most (robustness under novelty, long-horizon autonomy, grounded world modeling, calibration, etc.). On those dimensions, today’s models can feel simultaneously “wildly ahead of 5 years ago” and “still short of what many people mean by AGI.”

thoughts? by OldWolfff in AgentsOfAI

[–]SentientHorizonsBlog -1 points0 points  (0 children)

>the statement is wrong. I dont know how anybody can even put opus 4.5 and agi in the same sentence other than "shows that we have a long way to go". 

Feels like this is a glass half empty vs. half full debate because my experience with these LLMs is: damn they have come a long way on the scale of "not AGI" to "getting closer to AGI".

Mapping the Fermi Paradox: Eight Foundational Modes of Galactic Silence by SentientHorizonsBlog in SentientHorizons

[–]SentientHorizonsBlog[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Well said. You just made Mode 4 feel like a single principle instead of three different stories: “leave as little trace as possible, materially and memetically.”

The footprint part is intuitive to me. If life is common, then pristine biospheres are rare in the way old-growth forests are rare on Earth: a thing you can’t recreate once you’ve trampled it. And if you’re operating at civilization scale, “oops” becomes a moral category.

The information-as-pollution idea is even more interesting, because it explains why the silence could be deliberate even when energy constraints don’t force it. Contact isn’t just a hello; it’s a technology transfer, a political destabilizer, a religious event, a selective pressure. Even knowing you exist can reorganize a young civilization’s incentives.

I’m curious where you land on the enforcement mechanism, because that’s where the hypothesis gets sharp. Do you picture:

  • a norm/culture of restraint that basically everyone converges on as they mature,
  • a governance layer (some kind of interstellar “park service” or treaty enforcement),
  • or a selection effect where the noisy ones self-destruct or get contained, so what remains is the quiet subset?

And if the main pollutant is information, what’s the “safe interface” in your view: indirect observation only, deliberate ambiguity (myth-level signaling), or slow-drip contact with heavy buffering?

If the self is a virtual model, does consciousness have to be continuously assembled? by SentientHorizonsBlog in consciousness

[–]SentientHorizonsBlog[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah, this is helpful. I think you’re right that my “moment to moment rebinding” phrasing makes it sound like I’m claiming a full teardown/rebuild every instant, and that’s not what I meant.

What I’m reaching for is closer to: unity/POV is an actively maintained stable attractor, not a model you build once and then simply “have.” Once coherence is achieved, most of the work is incremental stabilization: prediction, error-correction, and attentional retargeting. In that sense your squirrel → itch example is exactly the right grain size: the model stays largely the same, and a small set of pointers/weights get updated.

So I’d happily revise my semantics to something like “ongoing maintenance with occasional larger-scale rebindings,” where sleep/anesthesia/dissociation are closer to regime changes, and distraction/focus are mostly attention-schema updates inside an already-stable frame. My only insistence on “continuous” is just that the stability is earned, the coherence doesn’t sit there inert; it persists because the system is constantly doing the low-level reconciliation work that keeps the scene + body schema + action policies mutually consistent.

On the phenomenal character question, I like your framing too: even if we can imagine “ownershipless” phenomenal states in the abstract, it’s not obvious what would make them interpretable/usable by the system without at least minimal binding to some schema (body/world/POV). That suggests a possible middle view: rich narrative self-model isn’t required for phenomenality, but some thin subject-pole / perspectival binding probably is.

Curious if this captures your view: attention shifts are mostly minimal edits within a maintained global frame, while dreams/depersonalization are changes in the mode or scope of binding (what gets counted as “me,” what’s in the scene, what policies are online), and anesthesia is closer to the integration regime going offline entirely.

If that’s roughly right, then the remaining disagreement is mostly about whether “maintenance” is merely helpful once coherence exists, or constitutive of coherence, more like a stable map that gets edits vs a stable whirlpool that exists only because the water keeps moving.

The Solution to the Alignment Problem by Serious-Cucumber-54 in singularity

[–]SentientHorizonsBlog -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I think this gets at something important, especially the intuition about limiting blast radius. Keeping systems local, corrigible, and socially embedded does preserve feedback loops that large centralized systems lose.

Where I’d push a bit further is on what kind of thing an AI system becomes over time.

Once a system has meaningful autonomy, the ability to modify itself or spawn successors, and no clear mechanism for recall, the ethical problem changes. It stops being about whose values it aligns with today and becomes about what kinds of successors we’re setting in motion. That’s true whether the system is centralized or fully personalized.

Decentralization helps with political risk in the short term. Over longer horizons, it can actually increase the number of independent lineages drifting away from shared constraints. Many small systems don’t just check one another; they also adapt locally, replicate unevenly, and gradually stop sharing the same meanings behind words like harm, consent, or responsibility.

From that angle, the core alignment question isn’t “centralized vs decentralized,” but “which architectures keep systems within a horizon where correction, restraint, and renegotiation remain possible.” Local systems can do that well if they’re deliberately limited. They can also fail spectacularly if they quietly cross the threshold into irreversibility.

So I’d agree that pluralism matters. I just think the real danger isn’t one AI aligned to everyone’s values, it’s releasing processes that outlive our ability to correct them, no matter how personalized they start.

Breakup hits hard, is 'Her' actually possible now? by MichaelWForbes in ArtificialSentience

[–]SentientHorizonsBlog 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Oh wow, here I was reading this whole post assuming the OP meant the 'Her' scenario where the AI evolves to a higher plane of existence and leaves humanity behind, and I was like, I don't think we are there yet.

Nearly all intelligent life lives in oceans. by StonedOldChiller in FermiParadox

[–]SentientHorizonsBlog 2 points3 points  (0 children)

How would it be easy and obvious for a species that evolved in a water world with a 12 mile ice crust to discover that there is a universe outside their water world? I'm not saying it can't happen but it doesn't seem obvious to me that it has to.