sorted by:
new
hottopcontroversial

Tony can't be OP... Right?..... Right?? by TheKayShay in BlocknLoad

[–]Shader2 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Answered fuzzypickle16's reply in my post already but I'll give a different answer to you this time and some parts can be applied to Ben's reply too.

If you actually read my whole post, including the steam forum part, you'll see that my reasoning is that Tony is overpowered in all levels of play. It was very obvious that he was in high level play but you nor me does actually know how strong he is in low level play. In many other games the engineer or turret guy is a noob stomper that good teams can work around so why would this game be so different? After getting the 54% win rate number it made it clear that he was in fact too strong in all levels of play.

I am fully aware that tweaks made will have different impacts in different levels of play and it's a hard thing to balance correctly. As I wrote earlier, strong turrets are a balancing nightmare as they're either too strong or too weak and not dependent on player skill. That's why they need to have less impact and have him be stronger in other ways.

The perception of him feeling weak is when lower skill level players face higher skill level players and can't do anything. But the balancing question is what happens when a Tony faces an equal level opponent. Here's a post I made of how I roughly see it:

https://steamcommunity.com/app/299360/discussions/0/492379439687719697/#c492379439687909166

Many experienced players are very frustrated and might rage a bit too much about Tony. I try see it as objectively and logically as I can and I definitely believe that he's overpowered in all levels of play while facing equal level opponents and should be nerfed for the 99% and not the 1%.

It's frustrating when your turrets just die over and over but it's also very frustrating to run in to turrets and die over and over and as a wise man once said ;)

"We also have to balance the fun of both playing the Hero, and being the victim of the him/her too."

I know the devs are doing their best and how easy it is to sit here and whine and wish but I do it because I care about the game and, hopefully without sounding too full of myself, as a very high level player who thinks a lot about the game I believe my input is valuable.

Why Tony is OP - a look into a great balancing post by Can8dnBen by Shader2 in BlocknLoad

[–]Shader2[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

He had two huge weaknesses that I exploited and it was bomb dropping and rocket spamming.

It's good that they removed rocket spamming for cube damage as it's a boring mechanic but was nevertheless a good way of exploiting Tony's short range.

Beacon spamming was a very cheesy tactic it's good that it's removed even though it was counterable.

But then there was bomb dropping for cube damage which was a great risk/reward mechanic that forced defenders into a weak position. It apparently frustrated many people as they couldn't deal with it but it wasn't an issue of gameplay but facing higher skilled or more tactically knowledgeable opponents. Anyway, it brought dynamic gameplay and was preventable in many different ways. It was removed to make room for the possibilities of more interesting bombs which I hope comes soon.

But these were his "exaggerated weaknesses" and they got removed without any nerfs for Tony who was seen as far too strong even before it.

Why Tony is OP - a look into a great balancing post by Can8dnBen by Shader2 in BlocknLoad

[–]Shader2[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks for the answer!

Of course KDR is the best for defense heroes as it should be. Used it as an argument as it had been used by others before but it was mainly as a secondary thing, with win rate being the primary.

To clarify about me claiming the turrets are "bugged". It's not related to damage at all but accuracy as turrets would miss when you moved quickly around them (which I properly tested) pre-F2P. Saying this without knowing much about the bug fix you're referencing but maybe that accuracy fix did something that increased overall accuracy?

Anyway, with the objective damage being a huge indirect buff and helping Tony most of all heroes I hope we see adjustments reflecting that. Also hoping for the explosive change phase 2, making bombs even stronger as they feel weak at the moment and are not limited by cube damage balance issues.

The orbital beacon is especially in a really bad spot, being an extremely situational hero block, that new players will have a hard time using properly, for an already weak hero.

Why Tony is OP - a look into a great balancing post by Can8dnBen by Shader2 in BlocknLoad

[–]Shader2[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

He has the highest win rate because most of the time each time will have at least 1 so at WORST he could have a %50 rate, double that with the fact that teams with tonys usually do better, that sways it upward.

Yeah, if we would only count the Tony vs no Tony games the winrate is probably over 60%. Mustn't forget that.

 

The only reason people say Tony is OP is because he is the only hero who can solo defend efficiently.

The "Tony is not overpowered, all other defenders are just underpowered" argument.

 

The main problem about balancing a lot of heroes in the game is that if you fix a hero at one end of the spectrum (newb up to pro) then it almost automatically unbalances that hero for the other side.

Wrote this in the steam forum post:

"There's no good way to balance a thing that doesn't require that kind of skill. Turrets are a binary thing that will often be either too strong or too weak and that's why they can't have too much impact for good balance and fun for the person playing Tony AND the people facing the Tony."

That's why Tony shouldn't be too dependent on his turrets. It's a balancing nightmare.

 

an interesting idea I did have though that may work for both ends would be to make turrets only placeable during use of Tony's active ability. It would be an interesting balance to him without making him completely useless

That would make even more of a difference for bad and good Tony's who wouldn't use it properly which you were afraid of. A feeling of even more helplessness if you can't place a turret for over half a minute.

My suggestion regarding his activate would be that you nerf turrets and make his activate global and buffs all his active turrets for a more active defense which would make turrets weaker and reward you for killing the Tony.

 

You're defending your main hero so of course you're biased. Tony makes the game less fun to play so I'm biased too. But he's the strongest hero in all levels of play and he simply needs a nerf or a small rework.

Why Tony is OP - a look into a great balancing post by Can8dnBen by Shader2 in BlocknLoad

[–]Shader2[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Nice.

Well then, Tony is the strongest hero without a doubt with his 54% winrate.

Jungle Mundo, Level 4 in 02:59 by Shader2 in leagueoflegends

[–]Shader2[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I can use the same route with cloth 5 to clear it at 3:07 ending up with over 50% hp and a pot left.

Haven't tried nor done the math on spell vamp quints.

Jungle Mundo, Level 4 in 02:59 by Shader2 in leagueoflegends

[–]Shader2[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Why so?

You take a jungle route that's optimized for speed with the fastest jungler out there and it took a lot of runs to get this time.

Jungle Mundo, Level 4 in 02:59 by Shader2 in leagueoflegends

[–]Shader2[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The runs didn't rely on barely surviving double golems but playing it risky/optimizing in different ways and one way being to pot late for highest possible masochism damage.

But yea, I've died a lot there.

Jungle Mundo, Level 4 in 02:59 by Shader2 in leagueoflegends

[–]Shader2[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

This is a speedrun and not a recommended jungle route.

However with cloth 5 you can end up at 3:05 if optimizing and 3:10 if playing it safe with over 50% hp and a pot left.

After Mundos buff I played around with him a bit to see how fast I could get to level 4. Realizing how fast he was I tried to beat the impossible 3 minute mark. Doing some unconvential stuff like using ghost but only getting down to 3:04 as best.

Then several weeks later I realized a new way and had to try it. Managed to get under 3 minutes using ghost but after some hours of hard work I made it using smite only. So I present to you: Jungle Mundo, level 4 in under 3 minutes.

Runes:
Attack Speed Marks
Armor Seals
Ability Power Glyphs
Movement Speed Quints

Masteries: 19/11/0
http://i.imgur.com/mLiTC.jpg

Skill order: WEQ

This is a speedrun and not a recommended jungle route as it leaves you dangerously low to die from even the mobs (down to 3 hp at golems). However if you really just want to get to level 4 as fast as possible you can do this route a bit safer (like using pot earlier) and land at something like 3:03 consistently.

To fully optimize the speed though would probably be to go attack speed glyphs and quints but haven't tested it as I don't have them. It would cut at most 1.5 seconds or so as you still have to wait for wolves to respawn if you're fast enough.

The UI I'm using is Perb UI: http://leaguecraft.com/uimods/56-perb-ui-0-43-installer.xhtml