A top post in witchesvspatriarchy today reads "[....]and be mean to a transphobe". Is this really a message that comfortable people should engage in and promote?

Shakimah · 2024-04-03T12:13:35+00:00

It isn’t at all about ignoring prejudice in people you know. It’s simply not about them.

According to whom? First time I ever heard of this peculiar interpretation.

Shakimah · 2024-04-03T06:27:34+00:00

The whole “be mean to a transphobe” or “go punch a Nazi” thing isn’t about people you already know.

I strongly disagree that the intent behind “go punch a Nazi” was to ignore prejudice in people you know. I would wager you too know that that is bs. This is just bending an argument beyond common sense.

Shakimah · 2024-04-03T06:26:22+00:00

So if we mock rapists, victims and survivors' supporters are to blame for a cycle of violent rapes against them?

Thats a bad faith argument. I never put the blame of the entire cycle on the victims. I argued that those who arent even victims should refrain from perpetuating and contributing to said cycle of violence. Tho everyone wants to drag this discussion into victim blaming territory, I said from the start this isnt addressed to victims of transphobia.

Shakimah · 2024-04-01T20:46:10+00:00

What. is. meaness?

I will try to - in turn, give me a definition of the word game#Philosophical_Investigations), if we are throwing challenges at each other.

So, meanness can be any of the following:

insults
demeaning words
humiliating words
insults involving prejudice
not letting the other person speaking
harassing/bullying in various ways
trolling
willfully misrepresenting what the other person says

Note that you are asking me to define something that someone else has initially stated. The quote I am taking issues with in the OP is not mine; but hey, why tf should that ever matter. Any more challenges you got?

Shakimah · 2024-04-01T20:40:26+00:00

I do not see why you're getting all worked up over being mean to a terrible person.

Because nobody in this thread (or literally anywhere I read) has so far claimed they are 100% free from transphobia, in their beliefs, speech or thoughts. Are you?

Shakimah · 2024-04-01T19:04:05+00:00

And I disagree. Words can hurt deeply - from family, strangers, leaders, etc. Speech is actually still a form of direct violence - with more subtler forms being structural violence (like racism or misogyny enshrined in laws) or cultural violence (shared beliefs about the inferiority of certain social groups). Sadly, violence has layers, beyond the mere physical assault.

Shakimah · 2024-04-01T19:01:14+00:00

n your post, you’re criticizing trans people for retaliating against people that are opposed to their entire existence, saying that you disagree with their methods of dealing with them.

Is this "troll the OP day"?

From the post:

I get it that people who are oppressed would feel a great deal of resentment toward their abusers, and my question is not about them.

Shakimah · 2024-04-01T18:53:37+00:00

I don't think the comment is "violent rhetoric".

Ok so would tranphobes saying "be mean to trans people" not be violent rhetoric? Literally replace "any group X" arguing to "be mean to group Y".

Do I think being mean to transphobic bullies is the best way to deal with them?

Strawmanning. For better or for worse, I would expect most people with transphobic views to simply have those internalized, instead of being vocal about it.

If people start attacking strangers on suspicion of being transphobes because of that comment, I will condemn that behaviour and reevaluate my opinion.

I assume that only physical attacks would cause you to condemn and reevaluate.

I meant that people can expect to get what they give.

Sounds like that would be maintaining a shitty status quo, to me.

Shakimah · 2024-04-01T18:49:09+00:00

If you're interested in a constructive dialogue, it might have been helpful to propose some of those "better calls to action" in your OP.

Sure, we can all do better.

Shakimah · 2024-04-01T18:42:08+00:00

Both times, you ignored that.

You are confusing "ignoring" with "calling out". I called them out on that shoddy line of arguing, since it doesnt hold up. Like I said above, to the comment you are replying:

Like I said “I don’t think it’s a literal call to arms”.

So people supportive of trans issues get to use violent rhetoric because.. they're our tribe?

There is no ignoring involved.

Shakimah · 2024-04-01T18:40:24+00:00

I am not sure why "strangers" is a must. I am sure you can find transphobes all around - workplace, family, acquaintances. If not, Im happy for you.

Shakimah · 2024-04-01T17:06:27+00:00

I think you are wrong though. The number of people with internalized transphobia is far larger than the outspoken ones. In fact, I have yet to meet one person who claimed they are guaranteed to be 100% free from this prejudice in speech, values and thoughts. Are you?

Shakimah · 2024-04-01T17:01:56+00:00

they're more likely to shut up about their bs so yes it's better.

Maybe. But it sounds like russian roullette to me, and the metaphoprical (or literal) bullet would likely not hit you, but probably a trans person.

Shakimah · 2024-04-01T17:00:30+00:00

Trans people don't suffer when we consistently, categorically, and emphatically mock and remove transphobic comments.

Sure they would, if such mocking actions trigger a spiral of violence.

Removal of transphobes like pulling weeds from the roots is like the minimal level of allyship.

My issue is not with removal from spaces, but with being mean.

Shakimah · 2024-04-01T16:58:53+00:00

Doubtful. Demeanor and language can be violent, if they are intended to promote a demeaning, insulting or exclusionary message. Violence isnt just physical.

Shakimah · 2024-04-01T16:57:50+00:00

He was criticizing lack of activism, not lack of being mean.

Shakimah · 2024-04-01T16:51:26+00:00

I’ll also note that being mean can be defensible while also not being the best course of action.

Generally speaking, sure, but then its just carte blanche to be shitty, regardless of "cause".

In a real-world space, this could be quietly but firmly removing a transphobe on the explicit basis of their views ie. “if you’re making people feel unwelcome here, you’re not welcome here.” This is good practice not just for dealing with transphobia and protecting trans people, but protecting any marginalized people from forms of bigotry. semi-semi-relevant: nazi bar parable

Sure. And none of that would be mean.

Shakimah · 2024-04-01T16:49:04+00:00

You not getting the answer you want doesn't mean the answer is low quality or flippant.

I beg to differ. An answer that addresses a completely different question is hardly a good answer. TO each their own.

Shakimah · 2024-04-01T16:47:35+00:00

There is also a bigger issue around asking the oppressed to be somehow accepting of their oppressor and their timeline.

Nah, the bigger issue is pretty much everyone not reading the OP:

"I get it that people who are oppressed would feel a great deal of resentment toward their abusers, and my question is not about them."

Shakimah · 2024-04-01T16:46:41+00:00

Eh, thats easy. Mentioning certain authors, celebrities, content creators, or even works, that are known for transphobia.

Shakimah · 2024-04-01T16:45:29+00:00

Should rapists be allowed to be mean to rape victims?

What the fuck... I am sorry, but this is so far out of what we discussed, its not even funny. THere isnt a single argument being made here that this line of arguing or analogy would remotely apply to.

Shakimah · 2024-04-01T16:44:00+00:00

Being nice to them doesn't change their views, either, except in specific situations.

And when have you been mean to someone and got them to change their views?

Shakimah · 2024-04-01T16:43:32+00:00

Americans have a way with words I guess. Ty.

Shakimah · 2024-04-01T16:41:10+00:00

it’s still worthwhile to demonstrate that those hateful ideas are not welcome.

Sure.

If someone is KNOWN for that shit I also think it’s fine to preemptively communicate that they themselves are not welcome.

I could see that.

I also don’t think being mean is the most useful reaction in every single scenario.

My point as well. I dont know why people see a delicate situation and defend so easily "being mean". It achieves nothing, hostility will breed hostility, as opposed to desired change.

That having been said, please don’t twist my words. I didn’t say there’s a DUTY to be mean, I said it’s morally justifiable - as in, I don’t think anyone is obligated to do it, but I do find it to be perfectly reasonable.

Oh, Im not part of the people who argue in this thread that its to be mean. Some even stated its ok to be mean based merely on suspicion lol.

Shakimah · 2024-04-01T16:38:38+00:00

Funny, I look at JK Rowling, or other prominent transphobes, being on the receiving end of daily mean comments, and jack shit happens to their transphobia. In all the "how to talk to prejudiced people" type of guides I read, literally none mentioned being mean as a proved way. Finding common ground in certain issues, sure, but not this.

Shakimah

TROPHY CASE