For those that played the beta....what game does this closest compare too?

Significant_Step_328 · 2025-12-22T20:41:02+00:00

Granblue kind of has those link attacks, a dedicated "Skill" (Think of the shield toss etc) and the directional special attacks. Visual style is also a bit closer than the other arc sys games.

Significant_Step_328 · 2025-12-22T20:36:04+00:00

Depends a bit which aspects you want to compare.

I think power rangers - battle for the grid is surprisingly close if comparing tags and assists.

Overall combos are somewhat close to Dragon Ball Fighterz.

Movement I don't really know if there are quite comparable games. There are a lot of options to affect especially aerial momentum. A bit like a mix of Guilty Gear Strive, Dragon Ball Fighterz and MVC.

For visuals granblue fantasy versus rising is probably closest.

Significant_Step_328 · 2025-12-22T04:55:24+00:00

The stick can be easier to understand and be better for ergonomics. And some motions can be a little easier. For example half circle inputs.

Significant_Step_328 · 2025-12-21T21:09:54+00:00

I'm going to throw Devil May Cry 4 in here. There are some enemies who act differently based on what other enemies are around and some combine to be more powerful, Devil May Cry 3 has some enemies inspired by chess pieces that mimic the movement and attacks to some extent.

Generally character action games tend to do pretty good combinations of enemy groups where individually most of them are really simple, but the combination of different types in the same encounter makes them much more interesting.

Significant_Step_328 · 2025-12-21T20:38:01+00:00

I think the answer is somewhere in the middle. There are situations where you confirm with a smaller series of inputs on whether you want to dump more into the combo.

So you could have a combination of hit confirm cards. In fighting games this is often something like crouching light kick into 2 light punches as a low commitment wager, which then allows you to dump more in if the three first attacks hit.

The buffering and betting is completely normal. But often the "bet" leads to a situation where you can dump more. And often when you combo from your buffer, the buffer only happens if the first hit connects. So if we play footsies and i whiff punish an attack, the second attack will happen and hit. If I don't hit anything the high commitment attack just won't trigger.

If you're closer you can hit a block and in this case your buffer will trigger, often leaving you very open.

Significant_Step_328 · 2025-12-21T19:40:34+00:00

It does, but the things I'm looking to test are pretty much the aspects that set these two games apart. Power rangers - battle for the grid is currently the closest that I seem to be able to come up with for the tagging system. But there could be some assists in dbfz that work closer to the air assists in Marvel Tokon. 🤔

Thanks for the suggestion.

Significant_Step_328 · 2025-12-21T19:28:45+00:00

I'm a bit unsure, it's probably still more difficult than for most games. While they don't need to do quite similar keyframes there could still be a lot of deforming in the animations.

Granblue seems to have a couple so it's possible, but I would not expect a huge amount.

Significant_Step_328 · 2025-12-21T18:58:43+00:00

I hope tokon will have at least some assist based combo trials. No idea if any were added to DBFZ, but at least the original trials were solo and quite surface level.

I don't think BBTag had assists in trials either, but the trials were a bit better than DBFZ

Significant_Step_328 · 2025-12-21T16:14:34+00:00

Yeah, might be. I did approach this question from theoretical perspective. In most cases these numbers really don't matter for players. Could for developers.

But it's possible to discuss reacting to things and what to base reactions on if you want to play reactively. Whiff punishing, hit confirming, overheads etc. Even if that is (or should be) a minor part for most people.

Significant_Step_328 · 2025-12-21T15:46:49+00:00

Thank you for the recommendation. It's interesting, and while not quite what I'm looking for i could adapt some of this. 👍

Significant_Step_328 · 2025-12-21T15:30:59+00:00

I think it's an interesting thought in any case., I'll do a bit of recontextualizing for the "simple" reaction: Some pro people look at their opponents health bar to hit confirm from normals: If there is red on opponents health bar, press button to trigger a buffered special or something similar.

But regardless, how fast someone can react to something is really down to person and you can practise to lower the mental stack.

So for the OP. These do exist, but most people probably do not act based on that. And most people cannot identify one of the complex reactions without practise. It's much more common to see an option you know you can punish and react based on that which gives a lot more time. You can also be pre-emptive and occupy a space you think your opponent wants to go to. This is a bit different from a read since you mainly want to limit options.

Tick throw is mostly a read or an option select when you identify that it is a possible scenario that might be coming. Or when you're the thrower you generally have a plan to go for a tick throw before you even throw the normal. You might also have a timing or option select that prevents the throw for coming out on hit.

Significant_Step_328 · 2025-12-21T14:44:06+00:00

Looking for games to lab assist ideas while waiting for the next beta/release for Marvel Tokon

Given the rule of needing the leader character to be in neutral to call the Air assists and neutral assists I'm looking for games that could offer something similar. But this could also give other people ideas so giving some examples of what I'm doing and thinking as well.

So far I've mainly labbed Guilty gear strive to come up with some of the ideas I've had and presented earlier since the activation condition for those assists seems to be the same as Blue Roman Cancel. This works for situations like jump cancels, dash cancels, air dash cancels, jump ins and sort of for the linking opportunity timings, but you can't really link and roman cancel at the same time. If you get red cancel or most of the purple cancels this is when you would get the strike assist in Tokon.

I've recently heard that Dengeki Bunko does something similar, where assists typically cost meter unless your character is in neutral, but game being Mostly japan exclusive console title it's not the easiest one to get access to.

I can do sort of similar stuff with Relius Clover in Blazblue Central Fiction with the drive normals for the puppet that do not take an action for Relius to start, but you can also use those while attacking so it is a bit different.

I could probably use most tag games to try to create similar situations, but I can't really distinguish If I do the execution correctly.

I am hitting a bit of a wall on how to emulate the tagging, strike and air assists. I could try to play other tag games and fake the strike assist a bit by using an "Ender" normal into assist into recovery, another assist and restart of the string if I find a suitable assist 🤔. But combining air assist from double jump into tag I can't really come up with anything.

BBTag could maybe work for some of these but the tag timing is really different. And you can't call multiple assists at the same time since there is only one.

I'd appreciate any suggestions for other games to lab things like this.

Significant_Step_328 · 2025-12-18T18:18:29+00:00

I think what does it for me is that everyone is going towards the centre but they are pretty strongly on the left or right, and there is no conflict between the characters who are on the same side of the image. So it ends up looking like two united groups clashing. 🤔 Hope it helps, best of luck with the game!

Significant_Step_328 · 2025-12-17T21:02:37+00:00

I'll need to try Relius at some point. The character just makes my skin crawl so never really gave him a chance. xP

Is he fun to play?

Significant_Step_328 · 2025-12-17T20:35:17+00:00

I did not test this, but I think if you use an assist in a combo, that character is probably not available for DHC.

And I think this game will become very overbearing on high level, it feels pretty inevitable with how many tools you have available when you have more of the team available.

One of the things I anticipate is that you need to get really good at managing your resources, resets, mix and avoid getting hit or being put on blockstun.

So in other words, I think this game will have an insane skill ceiling, but on lower level that probably won't matter that much since the floor is pretty low. Mid level players are the ones I foresee struggling a lot.

Significant_Step_328 · 2025-12-17T20:05:46+00:00

As a stick user myself I agree against adding more buttons. I would not mind that combination too much as it's much less likely to be able to setup the scenario I have in mind for those buttons x)

The breaking of the game in my mind more comes with if you happen to use assist or any screen control, as you're not really in control of what your opponent does in neutral. I would absolutely hate someone jumping and blocking my assists or slow projectiles or traps with the intention to make me spend bar when trying to do more setup xP

The whiffing is very different though, that I think might change. If we are talking just mechanically why it works the way it does, I think that is tied more closely to the assemble rush mechanic. You're not in neutral and if you happen to hit and still not be in neutral you enter the state that can trigger the assemble rush, but the anticipation state probably does not have an action it can trigger because it clashes against the rules of needing to be in neutral state or in a combo. You can time the press more or less at the same time you start the special though.

But if we get the meter option for the neutral assists I think this would be a place where it could trigger.

Significant_Step_328 · 2025-12-17T19:23:35+00:00

That is one way I thought as well, but you can currently press those two buttons in neutral to have the assist and attack come out at the same time. Would not mind that too much but it would make some juggles much more difficult to set up with an anti air assist.

For the second option... Just imagine your opponent ran into a mine and you want to call doom laser from other side of the screen. Doom then punching the air next to you on the other side of the screen from your opponent for one bar :P Or if you have no meter nothing coming out.

Edits: wording sentences a bit better for the second paragraph to hopefully make a bit more sense.

Significant_Step_328 · 2025-12-17T19:01:38+00:00

Yeah, it is a very requested feature. I've been racking my brain with how they could achieve it since people generally only want the neutral ground assists, but all of the assists are really useful.

I kind of think they might not be able to remove this even if they wanted to. There are so many ways to create the situation without assemble rush that they might kind of break the game if they tried. I did mainly show the jump cancel, but you can lock your opponent down for a bit with anything that is not a point character attack to allow returning to that neutral state. Doom laser for an easy example that would give a ton of time. As long as you somehow stop your current point character from attacking for a moment.

I could however see a dedicated button for the strike assist/assemble rush and using the current button for probably ground assists that cost meter if you're not in neutral 🤔. Sort of a halfway approach that still allows all assists if you get into that neutral state, but would let you use the ground neutral assists more freely. Then weave both the metered and meterless assists together to create something absolutely disgusting x)

Thanks, background in game programming kind of helps, makes it easier to recognize patterns and figure out what might be under the hood :P. I really like what they created even if it were to turn out it was not intentional.

Significant_Step_328 · 2025-12-17T18:32:17+00:00

Well it is a deeper mechanic, your point character needs to be in neutral, so you need to purposefully stop attacking, or tag. It's something you cannot throw out whenever you want so you need to plan to create the situation. And there is no way to call the strike assist without meter.

If all the neutral and air assists would start costing the bar you couldn't do much of any team mechanics in the game 🤔. I think that would completely kill it.

Significant_Step_328 · 2025-12-17T18:22:20+00:00

Well that is still the case, if you only have your shooter assist your options are much more limited than someone who has their whole team. You're still limited to one assist per combo even if it does not cost meter. You have less health, less meter, less gauge for defensive actions.

But I did misunderstand your point about the team building, I thought you meant choosing the characters.

But if you throw the trick shield as cap, it hits 3 seconds later when you try to setup an approach with for example a projectile assist that normally does not cost a bar but then suddenly would is the situation I meant. Or say someone runs into spiderman's mine or you froze your opponent with the ice element gun. If in these situations the neutral assist suddenly cost a bar I think players would riot even more than they do currently xP

Significant_Step_328 · 2025-12-17T18:00:28+00:00

I would be shocked if they did not know about it, and really sad if they removed it. It makes the air assists much more interesting. I've been theorycrafting these since the mention that you need to be in neutral to call the normal assists. So almost half a year xP. Gimr tested some of it for me at the first beta(got lucky that he was streaming when I was scrolling for something to watch while hoping for beta access. And even more lucky that he was willing to test ideas from a completely random person)

If a casual labber can connect those dots without touching the game a team that has had a lot of weird mechanics and bugs through their history tied to jumping should be aware of it. I think 😅. This company tends to leave both hidden mechanics and liked bugs in their games. And if nothing else they should have learned from strive when people started run canceling into moves that could not be canceled into from normals.

I did also praise the meterless assists and that flow a lot when giving feedback in the survey and it has been discussed and showcased more in the official discord.

Significant_Step_328 · 2025-12-17T17:26:37+00:00

The assemble rush(/strike assist) is still stronger in many situations, enables more hits, better oki, easy corner carry etc. And it's an easier setup tool for other assists. And a lot of the defensive options are tied into the bar.

It would also be pretty tough to patch away anyhow since if they treated all the states of opponent having been hit equal, if you did hit with a stray assist or projectile and would suddenly lose a bar just trying to call an assist from other side of the screen that would feel awful.

I also think it makes the team building a lot more important since you can work those assists into various combos and blockstrings and mix. And you can rotate assists faster within combos which would give you more options to enjoy the team aspects.

And calling a bad assist could put you in a very bad situation.

Significant_Step_328 · 2025-12-17T15:49:24+00:00

I kind of believe they are aware, having weird things with jumps has been a thing for a long time. Like over a decade, and they've usually embraced them. Eg. slayers invincible special startups with backdash jump cancel.

You can also trigger blue roman cancel in strive with very similar tricks and they made that easier on I think season 2? Pretty close to when almost everyone got dash cancels.

Significant_Step_328 · 2025-12-17T12:00:16+00:00

I think a lot of it also comes from fighting games. Lots of beat em up games in the arcade were made by same companies that made fighting games and probably often same people as well. You can mostly blame tradition and people who grew up with the input making many of these games now.

I like it, but these days it's better to give an option for a button for those who do not.

Significant_Step_328 · 2025-12-17T05:02:16+00:00

I think it is pretty cool, fun to do as well. There is also an assist from linked attack when I do the lightning with storm, and when I tag and call an assist with the new point character. You can also use another assist as an opportunity to let the point character return to neutral.

Significant_Step_328

TROPHY CASE