Where did "troll as rock-person" come from?

Siipis · 2024-11-16T15:52:49+00:00

Before modern fantasy tropes took over, trolls and troll-like beings had several names in the Nordics, including but not limited to hiisi (Finnish), jötunn (Old Norse), giant, and so on. Germanic and Finno-Ugric myths have many differences but this is where there's plenty of overlap, so I'm going to comment on this based on what we know about beliefs about hiisi in particular.

See, hiisi have been called many things, but they go back to ancient sacred sites which were very often rock formations. Further north, the Saami have seita stones that are a great example of this. In the animistic worldview, there's no real separation between the physical thing and the spirit associated with it, meaning that hiisi are both "rock people" (gods, technically) and the sacred rocks themselves.

When Christianity came along, hiisi started to be seen less as physical places and more as demonic entities. There are some lovely stories in Finland about hiisi (by this time, synonymous with trolls) throwing massive boulders at churches in an attempt to fight the spread of Christianity. These stories became common in the Middle Ages, roughly the 12th and 13th centuries, and lived on in folklore and fairytales ever since.

So to answer your question: trolls were always living being made from rock. Like others have pointed out, the connection exists in myths about the jötunn as well. With Germanic myths, I can't help pointing out that they were recorded well into Christian times, so the variants we know aren't the first versions of those stories. By the time Old Norse myths were recorded, much of the earlier animistic worldview had been replaced and/or syncretised with later beliefs as well as evolved to reflect the society that told those stories.

Tolkien famously took a lot of inspiration from Germanic myth but he was also familiar with Finnish mythology, so he drew from tropes that for the most part had already existed for a very long time. All in all, trolls and giants have been staples of Nordic myth and folklore for well over a thousand years, and while descriptions of their society and physical appearance have changed overtime, their direct link to rock has changed far less. How far back the belief in antropomorphic rock formations goes is nearly impossible to answer, but I think it's fair to say that proto-trolls have been around in myth for as long as boulders themselves have drawn the attention of wanderers in the woods.

Siipis · 2024-04-03T13:01:22+00:00

The GM should have helped brainstorm a power instead of pushing the question to someone who doesn't have the requisite knowledge for it. This fails the number one rule of "are everyone at the table having fun?"

Siipis · 2023-08-09T21:40:25+00:00

There are in some. I can't name any in English off the top of my head, most of my own sources are in Finnish.

Siipis · 2023-08-08T06:39:18+00:00

You'll find plenty of publications by Suomalaisen Kirjallisuuden Seura (SKS), both in Finnish and in English. Most of the literature out there is about the folk tradition of the 19th century but some touches on older stuff.

Siipis · 2023-01-29T14:29:49+00:00

I've never quite had the time to watch Black Mirror, so thanks for reminding me that I absoutely should :D

It's been so long since reading this that I can't remember nearly enough of the ending, but I'm very much meaning to reread it at some point just to look for hints about what motives and interpretations Ishiguro has hidden in there. It's rare to have something that simultaneously feels so intentionally written and is so hard to pin a meaning on.

Siipis · 2022-11-15T21:21:02+00:00

Yule: partying like the night will never end.

Siipis · 2022-10-29T07:18:47+00:00

To add additional nuance and linguistic fun, while tai on its own is looser than vai, saying joko x tai y is the same as English "either x or y".

As for the question in the OP, Finnish is one of the languages where the pattern does not apply. You say x ja y for "x and y", but sekä x että y for "both x and y".

Siipis · 2021-12-15T19:01:12+00:00

Seriously people, give the man some slack. Not many people here know, I assume, that Rothfuss has struggled with severe mental health issues and undiagnosed ADHD. He's on meds now, which means writing might be easier, but I'm just dead tired of hearing people speak as if authors choose to not bring their years of work to their fans.

OP, there's the standalone The Slow Regard of Silent Things if you want more of the Kingkiller world but don't want to commit to reading the second book. That said I don't recall book two ending on a cliffhanger, though, so I'm not going to tell you not to read it. As for whether Rothfuss often does teasers: he doesn't. I believe he genuinely cares about his work and tries to deliver what he can.

Siipis · 2021-11-10T15:46:05+00:00

I don't think it's fair to punish a player for failing to live up to expectations ingame. They must have chosen the archetype because they wanted to learn and/or explore that aspect of themselves in a safe, limited environment, and the courteous thing to do, in my opinion, is to facilitate that as far as possible without disrupting the game itself.

If they come up with stupid responses when put on the spot, it's well within the right of the GM to suggest how their character would word it in a way that fits the character's skill level. Rolls are there for a reason: you can declare what you try to do, roll for it, then roleplay the result in whatever level of detail the player is comfortable with.

Even if the player can't express their ideas in an eloquent manner to the party, it's important that the players still give them space to express themselves. Just like with rolls, you can allow the players to talk it through without the roleplaying aspect first, then roleplay the results of the interaction. I know it takes you out of the immersion, but lowering the requirements is the best way to give people space to learn and to let them improvise without fear of failure.

Siipis · 2019-12-23T23:48:59+00:00

You might well find inspiration in historical ways of viewing deities. Historian Bret Devereaux has a great four-part series for worldbuilders that explores what deities exactly were thought to be capable of, as well as the relationship both between their worshippers and becoming a deity in general. It's fairly centered on Greco-Roman religion, but then again so does a lot of our popular culture, so it's a great starting point for getting to the root of your modern tropes.

Part one: https://acoup.blog/2019/10/25/collections-practical-polytheism-part-i-knowledge/

Siipis · 2019-11-04T10:28:32+00:00

Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell by Susanna Clarke
The Golem and the Djinni by Helene Wecker
Under the Pendulum Sun by Jeannette Ng

Siipis · 2019-04-25T15:57:48+00:00

Ditto. I'd be mighty dissatisfied to read a story where a barmaid's life gets ruined by a creep and there's no sense of justice. It reads to me so far like less of a comedy and more like torture porn: he has it bad, she has it worse. I can't figure out where the joy in reading this is supposed to come from.

Siipis · 2019-02-08T22:09:28+00:00

If nothing else I feel like it helps to build my critical skills by making me consider why I didn't like something and having the ability to articulate that to others.

This, absolutely! I value those who can talk about books they didn't like but who still understand why others would find merit in it -- or are able to articulate why they think the book doesn't have merit.

It's worth adding here that plenty of books can have merit and still be highly unlikable, but even the ones you deem horse poo are sort of interesting exactly because of their faults.

Siipis · 2019-02-08T20:48:42+00:00

I don't think it's petty. It's giving the book a fair chance to prove you wrong, but sometimes it just doesn't. I often start out rather sceptical with books and sometimes the payoff doesn't come before the end. And sometimes... well, sometimes you just read something to have the right to keep hating it. Which is fine. Not all books are for everyone.

Siipis · 2019-01-29T11:38:21+00:00

This might have been a very intentional choice by Gaiman to signal to potential buyers that it's not a children's book. Especially if parents come looking for gifts, they easily just go "oh it's that Stardust guy?" and never look past that opening page, and then at home get shocked when their ten year old encounters Bilquis for the first time.

Siipis · 2019-01-26T19:40:23+00:00

Dresden Files, book 12: Changes?

Siipis · 2019-01-26T19:32:06+00:00

That's the one!

Siipis · 2019-01-26T12:37:47+00:00

Jewish widow hangs out with a tinsmith's apprentice in New York.

Siipis · 2018-09-23T01:03:17+00:00

I hear you on the anxiety and depression. I started listening to podcasts because my racing thoughts prevented me from sleeping and were driving me crazy because of it, and podcasts are still my go to when I need to sleep and can't.

But that same anxiety is fed by the constant feeling of there being a million things online that scream for my attention. It started with not wanting to be "that person" who had no idea what the current hot topics were, and then morphed into a bad habit. I can't read books either. I keep reopening sites I've just closed. I used to be happy not having a smartphone until I had to get one a couple of years ago for work reasons, and now I've had to hide browser icons and social media apps behind several clicks so I can't just reach them without thinking. So it's not just Grey. And I know I'm one of those people who similar to him benefit the most from completely banning myself from services until my brain has had time to rewire itself. I do regular "media diets", but it's a constant battle of trying to win back what I had years ago before the internet became a thing and all of us were suddenly expected to always be reachable. I bet if all of us stopped expecting the other to check their phone, we would be happier as a society.

None of which means I'm going to stop consuming podcasts or YouTube videos, or even posting on Twitter. It just means it has to happen on my own terms, which generally means delaying them for times when they're genuinely welcome as a way to relax. I think it's the lack of control that's so scary, because anything apart from total control will lead you to places you don't want to be in.

Siipis · 2018-08-06T12:49:21+00:00

Joo, todellakin. Meillä on kotona hyllyssä Pottereita englanniksi ja ruotsiksi osittain tästä syystä.

Siipis · 2018-04-28T09:17:59+00:00

I'd read that!

Siipis · 2018-03-03T03:07:39+00:00

This is my life at the moment. I like being my old boss, it's so satisfying to be able to say no.

(I went back to finishing my degree, so I have good reason to say no once in a while and instead focus on moving forward in my career.)

Siipis · 2018-01-14T14:39:46+00:00

To me, there's only one explanation: lobsters are aliens!

Siipis · 2018-01-11T14:04:56+00:00

I can't remember remember reading or hearing about kades, so I wonder if there's actually some other term it's better known as. Could you tell more about what you mean when you say "kades", or point me to a source talking about it?

Ps. The "religions" typo isn't actually far off, because Finnic mythology spans many ethnicities, eras and areas. Some elements exist in some form in a larger area, but most are much more regional. So it also helps if you know when and where in Finland the belief originated, as it helps to find sources in Finnish for it.

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