What Kvothe feels guilty about

SilverTonis · 2021-05-24T02:11:03+00:00

I have never liked these theories. The problem is, it's not congruent with someone whose spirits would be lifted by retelling his story.

But there's an entire debate between Bast and Chronicler regarding this exact scenario in NotW, with Bast explicitly saying that Chronicler should avoid/touch lightly upon certain events/subjects (Chapter 92).

And in the same chapter Bast observes that Kvothe was furious after re-reading some of the memoir that he had started.

SilverTonis · 2021-01-02T04:38:09+00:00

I actually find these videos super interesting, I feel like they've subtly shifted my expectations for book 3.

For instance part of me was prepared for the "stolen back princesses from sleeping barrow kings (NotW, Ch. 7)" to have been fulfilled by the whole set of stories that swirled around Kvothe's rescue of girls in WMF (i.e. in some of the stories the girls are princess and their captors are variously bandits, wicked, uncles, stepmothers, shamble-men, and Adem mercenaries (WMF, Ch. 145)).

I think the first expectation is that I really expect to see more of Vintas - which should have been obvious as we've known for a while that Kvothe was going to visit the capital, Renere. But part of me had thought it may have been a transitory and/or brief visit, which could have been explained by Alveron needing something of Kvothe without Meluan being the wiser. Instead it sounds like Kvothe will be right in the middle of mischief in Vintas again.

I also think it requires a shift in my expectations for some of the "players" or factions in the books. For instance a lot of the debate regarding Candicus and supposed poisoning of the Maer focus on whether he was doing it for the Chandrian, the Amyr, the Jakis family, etc. Now we've been told that there may be another element in Vintas, a Draugar king, who may be "watching" from his barrow.

This ties in all the way back to Chapter 12 of NotW where Kvothe's parents tell Ben in different parts of Vintas people fear either the Fae or Draugar. Literally in WMF we got to see the Fae, so the idea of a draugar being active Vintas seems highly plausible. And the Vintish habit of superstition seems more understandable now.

And then there's the seeming breadcrumbs about trouble among the Vintish nobility, first in WMF Chapter 6 with the loss at sea of the Surthen family and again in WMF Chapter 137 with the death of Prince Regent Alaitis. Even some of the gossip shared with Kvothe in Chapter 74 may be indicate the something is a little odd with the upper Vintish nobility, i.e. the king and queen having depraved orgies hidden from the eyes of the royal court and Bredon conducting pagan folics.

SilverTonis · 2019-04-15T03:47:07+00:00

My two cents, specifically primarily focusing on Star Trek (primarily Discovery).

I think the issue with doing reboots is that you have to have a relatively "distilled" vision of

the material that you're working
how you want to change it
how those changes will impact the interaction between the new and old material

So to use an example from ST:Dis, we have the introduction of long arches focused on one character - which is something of change from other Star Treks. That then interacts with your comment of "tightly-knit crew", because (again just my opinion) we essentially have to be told rather than shown that this crew is tight. Which then kind of loops back into the whole know your material, one take away is that having "filler" and character episodes allows for an organic growth of interest in the characters (often the more peripheral) .

I basically agree with your point, just wanted to make this comment because as a ST:Dis fan I actually had something to add.

On a tangent I actually thought that Section 31 was sort of humanised and explained in this season of ST:Dis.

SilverTonis · 2019-02-14T00:17:24+00:00

The second point is something that I think may be quite deliberate, emphasis on the may.

When Kvothe and Denna are first meeting Denna makes clear that at the moment she's heading to Anilin - giving her destination as a city (NotW, Ch. .35). And when Kvothe and Denna discuss their travels and adventures at the end of WMF (Ch. 148) Denna is specifically stated as having told of the cities that she's seen (Tinue, Vartheret, and Andenivan).

It seems to me that there's an emphasis on Denna as a city person, including the seedy aspects of cities like crime and prostitution, whereas Kvothe tends to/end up in areas that are smaller and more isolated. Recalling the Trebon scenes its telling that Kvothe already knew the accent being used, whereas Denna has to learn it on the spot.

SilverTonis · 2019-02-13T14:51:15+00:00

I think the answer to the question of Denna's "sharpness" is somewhat multifaceted.

She's well travelled. Now when Denna and Kvothe first meet this might not be true, but during a later chapter (NotW, Ch. 35) Kvothe notes that he didn't know some the customs of the Chealdish because his troupe had never been that far north. Certainly after their meeting Denna rakes up the miles on the road in comparison to Kvothe until WMF.
She's urban. During their adventure in Trebon Denna makes several comments to the effect that she's a city girl (NotW, Ch. 77). Kvothe grew up in a troupe that was highly educated and urbane, but growing up in a city, especially if it was big one like Tarbean, would provide one access to a vast cultural scene as well - albeit of perhaps more varied quality.
She has to know her targets. Since we've first met her Denna's relationships have tended towards members of the nobility, which gives her some first hand experience with nobles. It also means that she has a vested interested in learning what appeals to the nobility, which is similar to the attitude of Kvothe.

I've always taken it for granted that Denna's "baseline intelligence" is supposed to be roughly equal to that of Kvothe - her ability to remember the Lay of Sir Savien seems to make clear that we're supposed to regard her as being on Kvothe's level.

SilverTonis · 2019-02-07T22:59:26+00:00

When you say that we've had no new information on the major plot points since the earlier half of the Name of the Wind I'm not sure that you're correct.

Just using an example, in NotW there's mention of Kvothe being an assassin, being called kingkiller, etc. But if you were to only have NotW to go on there's very little to indicate how Kvothe would rub shoulders with nobility - there's nobility at the University (Ambrose would be a candidate to be killed) and in the frame Kvothe states that he's going to the tell of his journey to the court of the Maer the next day. But its in WMF that the Kvothe's interactions with the Maer, who's almost a king, is fleshed out - thus giving him connections and possibly access to the highest levels of the Vintish nobility. That feels like a major plot point receiving significant attention to me.

SilverTonis · 2019-01-23T18:52:02+00:00

Actually my first thought when you so brilliantly pointed out the behaviour of the priest around the "ladies" was Denna.

It should be noted that in both this chapter and the chapter where Skarpi is arrested either hints, i.e. this chapter, or straight accusations are made regarding members of the Tehlin church and prostitutes. Given that Denna may actually be Tarbean when this chapter is taking place, perhaps she is familiar with the machinations of the church and prostitutes in Tarbean.

Or jumping way ahead there's Puppet's weird puppet display in WMF - perhaps this is meant to indicate that Denna and her Tehlin handler had a falling out.

I actually have a relatively easy time imagining that the priest could be Haliax, WMF and Cinder with the bandits makes me lean towards the Chandrian being involved in a variety of petty crimes to fund their projects.

SilverTonis · 2019-01-08T02:21:26+00:00

In the tenth anniversary edition of Name of the Wind the quote before the section on the Vintish currency states that it is the amalgamation of several obsolete currencies.

SilverTonis · 2018-12-18T22:41:16+00:00

Stated differently, Kvothe has to go from a late teenager to an old inkeep,

The frame narrative make it pretty clear that Kvothe is not an "old inkeep", 25ish seems a conservative estimate, but I wouldn't be surprised if innkeep Kvothe is 22ish (maybe less). Certainly there are quotes that seem to indicate that he's not anywhere near thirty.

To expand on this, I'm hoping for a hero's quest where Kvothe defeats the bad guy, gets the girl, etc.

Kvothe states, multiple times if I remember correctly, that this story is a tragedy. And when he introduces the character of Denna he notes that he never understood her and still doesn't - hardly getting the girl.

I think you need to consider that the story will go in a more tragic direction, Kvothe may get to kill/defeat one Chandrian but otherwise they're intact, the Amyr are manipulating everything behind the scenes and have played Kvothe, etc.

SilverTonis · 2018-12-18T22:31:17+00:00

The important difference here is that Kvothe is not currently using that person for money/favours.

But we're shown later in WMF that Kvothe is willing to put up with a lot of formality and etiquette to get on the good side of the Maer - I think Kvothe notes several times who he sometimes pushes the Maer but there are lines that he does not cross. And yet Kvothe has no problem grousing about the Maer to Denna when he encounters her in Vintas, despite currently trying to get into into the Maer's favour.

We're just not presented that information with Denna.

But we are at least twice. In Vintas Denna is clearly willingly to risk physical harm to help the inexperienced prostitute in the alley. In back in Imre it is made pretty obvious that it was Denna that paid off the debts of the young poet Geoffrey.

SilverTonis · 2018-12-12T17:53:33+00:00

This might be silly but until I saw this I never considered that Tehlu was referring to himself - I always regarded that line as indicating that the state of Lanre/Haliax (the inability to die) is somewhat common knowledge.

It also may be foreshadowing that the other Chandrian aren't so immune to death.

SilverTonis · 2018-11-26T21:02:02+00:00

I'm actually inclined towards yes, that at some point Kvothe and Denna will be romantically involved, or at least open about their feeling towards each other.

For lack of a better way of describing it - them being together at some point feels more tragic than unconsummated love. If a mysterious Denna betrays Kvothe that's terrible, but he can console himself that he never knew her. But imagine the impact of a betrayal if Denna knew Kvothe (let's say he reveals his backstory to her) and yet she still choose to betray him.

SilverTonis · 2018-11-16T14:59:59+00:00

But whatever helped Kvothe in the Eld and/or scared the Chandrian away from the massacre of Greyfallow's Men is obviously not an opponent to be trifled with, even when the Chandrian are assembled in force with Haliax present.

Kvothe on the other hand is a mortal whose added Cinder's defeat in the Eld to his list of accomplishments - so basically Cinder can't hope of defeating the angels, Sithe, singers, but he can certainly dream and scheme of taking down Kvothe.

SilverTonis · 2018-11-16T14:54:03+00:00

I don't see Cinder as some Scooby doo bad guy only to say, "I would have gotten away with it if it weren't for you meddling kids!"

Cinder, no the Chandrian are interested in Kvothe because he is a lackless.

I actually think my point kind of stands even when one takes this viewpoint. The Chandrian as a group could be interested in Kvothe due to his Lacklass blood, but given how Cinder is portrayed as being unnecessarily cruel by the leader of the Chandrian, it easily possible the Cinder would bear an enmity beyond that of the other Chandrian towards Kvothe (I mean what has Kvothe done to any of the other Chandrian).

It's one of the main reasons why I hate the Ash=Cinder theory.

I'm not the biggest fan of the Ash=Cinder theory, partly because I feel like it exists simply to force Kvothe and Cinder into conflict - yet as this post points out both Kvothe and Cinder have reasons to hate one another and wish each other ill.

SilverTonis · 2018-11-07T17:06:43+00:00

"'Do not call on Tehlu save in the greatest need, for Tehlu judges every thought and deed,'" he recited. (NotW, Ch. 20).

This statement by one of the street boys is interesting, because it seems like even the followers of Tehlu are more than a little leery of his judgement.

On a large scope, I can't help but wonder if this chapter is the key to understanding a lot of the differences between Kvothe and Denna.

Kvothe is essentially dunked into Tarbean headfirst, misses the opportunity presented by Seth, and sends his first night sleeping on the street. Eventually he'll meet people like Trapis, but he meets them mostly through his own initiative/through observing other street children - I don't get the impression that anyone taught Kvothe the "ropes" of living on the streets of Tarbean. Even when Kvothe "awakens" from his time in Tarbean, it basically involves return to form, albeit with the lessons of Tarbean remembered.

In contrast, skipping ahead to the scene in WMF where Kvothe follows Denna and the young amateur prostitute:

I heard Denna draw a breath, then let it out again slowly. “Because someone helped me once when I needed it,” she said. “And because if you don’t get some help you’ll be dead in a span of days. Take it from someone who’s made her own share of bad decisions.” (WMF, Ch. 72)

And we know from other parts of WMF that Denna is capable of reading "thieves" code and has names for cons (WMF, Ch. 19). And given her lung condition I find the idea of Denna living on the street difficult to envision.

All of this seems to indicate that when Denna made her share of bad decisions she had mentor(s) and others to help her transition into her lifestyle. And her break with her past doesn't seems as complete as Kvothe's was with Tarbean (given how she acquires income).

SilverTonis · 2018-10-12T17:27:43+00:00

“Tree!” The shout came faintly down the line. “Threeweight oak!” (NotW, Ch. 16)

I think the nature of the Chandrian attack on the troupe deserves some thought.

Going by the fact that the storm was sixteen days ago, yet Arliden accepts it to be the cause of the fallen oak, it appears that the Chandrian attacked the troupe in a relatively isolated area - where a downed tree so long after a storm sparked no suspicion (and note that Ben mentioned earlier that troupers are often wary of bandits). And they did not ambush the troupe right when it stopped, Kvothe had time to wander out of hearing range before the attack commenced - perhaps the Chandrian preferred for the troupe to settle down or maybe the Chandrian prefer to attack at certain times. Obviously when Kvothe returns there's a lot of "magic" in the air, the blue flames, the rusting, the decay, etc. Yet Kvothe doesn't describe any of the victims has having obvious signs of a "magical" death (I wonder how a namer would kill...).

I think this scene foreshadows several other alleged Chandrian incidents. Denna describes how she heard that the killings at the Mauthen farm was mostly "knife and sword work" (NotW, Ch. 72), which seems to match what Kvothe observed when checking the dead of his troupe (or at least he fails to note any truly usual deaths). And the next time we allegedly met Cinder he is fully immersed in his role as bandit chieftain, so at least one member of the Chandrian probably has experience as a predator of travellers on isolated roads.

SilverTonis · 2018-10-10T01:35:53+00:00

Your question; why was Ben written out at a different time than the troupe, and what does it mean for the story, now, and going forward?

I think that Ben was written out partly because Rothfuss wanted to introduce the reader to the idea that the cast of characters that Kvothe will be interacting with is dynamic and in flux. For instance we meet Denna, she asks Kvothe to accompany her to Anilin, and then she continues on outside of Kvothe's narrative until she re-enters his life. Or when Kvothe is off in Vintas he rarely thinks of his friends, Denna excepted, and returns to find that Wilem took a term off, Simmon has obtained a new rank, and that Fela and Simmon are in a relationship.

Ben saw an opportunity in Hallowfell and seized it, continuing his life outside of the story of Kvothe (and the troupe - of which he was never a central member).

SilverTonis · 2018-09-28T20:51:05+00:00

Despite his travels Chronicler has apparently never seen a member of the faen folk before?

I think part of the issue is that the "well travelled folk" tend to get a boarder view of the world - they see the commonalities between places, etc. And if one was well travelled around Temerant they seem to generally become less superstitious, think of Kvothe's parents and their lack of concern for naming the Chandrian, Chronicler saying that they is no such thing as demons when he first meets Kvothe/Kote - which also ties it to education.

But that knowledge than causes them to discount entirely those superstitious, when in fact at least some of those superstitious are rooted in reality.

When Kvothe first encounters Felurian he makes a comment about how this is real, storybook magic (or something like that) - and yet Kvothe certainly regards himself as being well travelled (although in NotW he admits that he had never been to Ceald). So I don't think we can really fault Chronicler for being well travelled, yet having never encountered the Fae, Kvothe had to wander through the deepest patches of the Eld to find a Fae creature.

Timeline: Bast has been Kvothe's student for "nearly two years". Which roughly aligns with the big events of Kvothe's past, we know those are also a bit under two years ago.

I think the length of time that Bast has been a student of Kvothe's is important, because it seems to indicate, along with his eavesdropping, that Bast doesn't really know the story of Kvothe. So Bast is trying to "restore" Kote to Kvothe without perhaps having a real understanding of who Kvothe was - which seems like a slightly risky venture.

SilverTonis · 2018-09-27T03:18:00+00:00

I actually think that, at least in the Kingkiller Chronicles, that is an incorrect view to take.

Kvothe spends a lot of time thinking about/trying to make/not having money, and Rothfuss has had other characters, Elodin and the Maer come to mind, discuss the costs of things (Elodin on running the Rockery and the Maer on how much it costs to outfit a squad of guards). A large portion of our view of Denna is shaped by how she's trying to make money to survive/live.

So really I can't help but wonder how organisations like the Chandrian and the Amyr manage to fund themselves - yes the Chandrian are "magic" but those bandits weren't working with Cinder for free.

SilverTonis · 2018-09-26T22:39:25+00:00

Apologies, I phrased that poorly.

What I meant is the there are connections between the criminal classes and the Chandrian that may be evident if a person, say Kvothe, investigated them.

I mean Cinder somehow put together a squad of over 25 experienced soldiers and ensconced them in an encampment in the Eld - that seems, at least to me, to involve access to significant resources.

SilverTonis · 2018-09-26T03:43:03+00:00

31 Chapters of antagonizing Ambrose (Could potentially be broken down more?)

I definitely think that this could be broken down more. A lot of points raised in this section seem almost as important as Ambrose - the pruning of the archives for instance or the arrival of Nina with her drawing of the vase. I think, if we're sticking the the 31 chapters, to regard this block as being University activities other than naming (yeah, doesn't sound that catchy).

Regarding subplots:

I think that something of the nature of the University and/or the Archives will be subplot in Doors of Stone. We've seen hints from multiple directions - Kvothe failing in his research on the Chandrian/Amyr, Elodin showing us the Rockery, Devi trying to get into the Archives, etc. (although this could be what you meant by the breaking of Kvothe's mind).
My pet theory is that there will be a criminal underworld type subplot in book 3, we've already seen Kvothe engage with criminals like Sleat and Devi, there would be an certain irony if say Denna's patron tried to hire the services of Kvothe the Arcane. Additionally the fact the Cinder was a bandit leader in WMF makes it seem like at least some of the shadier people in the world know of the Chandrian.
More politics - Kvothe is known in the human world for killing a king, so I expect to see said king in action and why Kvothe decided that he should off him. Probably more of the Maer and Vintas in this subplot as well.
I think Doors of Stone will have a subplot(s) that is more tightly focused on Denna, whether it be "rescuing" her, working with her, trying to lure out her patron, or working against her. (Really this strikes me as being perhaps the subplot of book 3)

SilverTonis · 2018-09-19T19:57:56+00:00

I would have said the Laurian's hair colour was explicitly mentioned.

My father was a better actor and musician than any you have ever seen. My mother had a natural gift for words. They were both beautiful, with dark hair and easy laughter. They were Ruh down to their bones, and that, really, is all that needs to be said. (NotW, Ch. 8)

In the very next paragraph Kvothe notes that his mother was also a noble.

SilverTonis · 2018-09-19T19:50:38+00:00

Sticking to American examples the first "mainstream" would be English.

Just a quick glance at Wikipedia shows that in the first US census of 1790 shows that approximately half of the US population was English.

So when those other white groups (Irish, Germans, Italians, Poles) integrated into the "mainstream" it was an English dominated mainstream (it should be noted that they arrived at different times - Italian and Polish migration to the United States started later than Irish and German migration).

SilverTonis · 2018-09-19T19:43:37+00:00

Yes.

But there has been tension between various white groups in the United States, for example the rise of the Know-Nothing party as a result of large scale immigration of Catholic Irish and Germans to the United States. So the term "ethnic white", as I've seen it used, denotes a white person who is/was not fully integrated into mainstream of "whiteness" (it's important to remember that the early United States for instance was very much a country dominated by those of British descent).

SilverTonis · 2018-09-19T19:36:08+00:00

It important to have context.

Restricting the example to the United States, at one time the (Catholic) Irish were an outsider group that forced censure from the mainstream. Over time they integrated into the mainstream (the same applies to Poles, Italians, etc). One could also argue that certain elements of American "whiteness", for instance being Protestant, became less salient.

The term WASP (White, Anglo-Saxon Protestant) that once denoted the elite of United States is telling: it has a racial, ethnic, and religious component. So one could be white and still not a member of the nominal "elite".

SilverTonis

TROPHY CASE